ESTJ: the ideal of masculinity?

[AKM]

[MENTION=5145]AKM[/MENTION]

Do you have any thoughts on the matter? :]

Well, since I'm being called out...my husband is INFJ. I am ESTJ (ish.) He is plenty man enough for me, but is not "stereotypically" male. He doesn't care for sports much, doesn't drink, isn't a womanizer, isn't "built," and is more sensitive than the "typical" man. I however AM ESTJ(ish) and at several points in our relationship we've joked (as have our friends) that I was the "man" of the relationship. I really don't like that though, and so have been trying to step back a little bit so that he can be the man that I see him as to the relationship. I love him just the way he is, and I don't know that I know what an ESTJ man would "look" like.

 

[LucyJr]

"ESTJ is the ultimate ideal of masculinity." (B. Steele)

Ha. I had an ESTJ friend, and this quote is rather well-put. However, I tend to believe that ESTPs are the ideal.

ESTJs are the ideal of the virtuous man, wether women or man.

ESTP males are a bundle of strenght and pride, but comparing to ESTJs, they are far from being wise and virtuous like ESTJs are.

The article about INFPs is really cool and very accurate!

 

[barbad0s]

probably. my tiny asian mom is an estj and she can tear you a new asshole larger than a legion of penises could.

 

[La Sagna]

Who decides what the ideal is? I'm sure the ESTP and ESTJ men believe that they are the ideal male. The ESTP and ESTJ men that I know very well both think they know everything and everybody else is wrong about everything, period.

Personally, I think to each their own. I really like and respect my ESTJ male friend, I get along with him very well, but I've also seen how he treats his wife and I wouldn't take her place.

 

[DonTaushMe]

ESTJs are the ideal of the virtuous man, wether women or man.

ESTP males are a bundle of strenght and pride, but comparing to ESTJs, they are far from being wise and virtuous like ESTJs are.

The article about INFPs is really cool and very accurate!

I'm glad I saw this, I would not have read it otherwise lol... There's a link to another website in that article that I'm absolutely in love with > http://www.infjorinfp.com/ You have to scroll down to find 'The Perfect Example of Fi' which is a pain to do so I'll just post what it says here:

A Perfect Example of Fi

When I read this, it struck me as an ideal example of introverted Feeling.

Author and lecturer Leo Buscaglia once talked about a contest he was asked to judge.

The purpose of the contest was to find the most caring child.

The winner was a four year-old child whose next-door neighbour was an elderly gentleman who had recently lost his wife.

Upon seeing the man cry, the little boy went into the old gentleman's yard, climbed onto his lap, and just sat there.

When his Mother asked what he had said to the neighbour, the little boy said,

"Nothing, I just helped him cry."

Love it, so much ^.^ totally tempted to edit it... lol but love it all the same.

 

[Skarekrow]

Who decides what the ideal is? I'm sure the ESTP and ESTJ men believe that they are the ideal male. The ESTP and ESTJ men that I know very well both think they know everything and everybody else is wrong about everything, period.

Personally, I think to each their own. I really like and respect my ESTJ male friend, I get along with him very well, but I've also seen how he treats his wife and I wouldn't take her place.

My experience with this type exactly…soooo incredibly arrogant and pretentious. They get very offended if you question them..especially their competence.
I think that everyone has developed their own personal ideal “type” man or woman. Much of that is based on the society we were raised within…since birth we learn social cues and norms…both from our parents, but also TV, school, media, etc.
It falls back on the nurture vs nature discussion which asks which has the most influence in deciding a person will be this or that way. If you think that society plays a large role then what La Sagna said could be very correct - Who decides what types are superior? Usually the majority…and then it gets reflected in society at that time…so there you go.
If you don’t adhere to society taking such a large role in the formation and shaping of a person, then this is done purely by chance and genetics in determining how a person will act and behave.
Most seem to think that we fall somewhere in-between with both sides playing a role…so one could easily argue that the Extroverts place a greater importance on their own self-worth then those who are Introverted and don’t always blow their own horn…even when they should.

 

[SpecialEdition]

My BF is one of these types and I would say personality wise he is VERY masculine. He is not subject to emotions what so ever. Everything is logical and reasoned in his mind. He is also adventurous and an adrenaline junkie while at the same time very calm and laid back. He is able to be the center of attention and feel nothing about it but also able to step back and let others have their moment. He is very action oriented and likes to produce results, but also likes to speculate about big concept ideas.

I find he is a huge balance to my personality and I find that he really encompasses what I've always imagined an "ideal man" to be.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

Most the super macho man people that i've known are just emotionally reppresed and immature. Met a lot of people like that, not my kind of people anyway.
The most "masculine" person that i've know was my grandfather, and he was an ISTJ i think, he was pretty balanced, stoic, a gentleman (girls loved him, although he was a 70 y/o man), people always directed to him with extreme respect, although he was easy-going and humble, and had a really good sense of humor, sometimes he could be punitive and cold, also incredibly sarcastic, but overall, i think he found a really good balance between the two poles. but then, for me it's just maturity and a pretty refined character couple with intelligence, not really type related imo (Although i do get along with ISTJs more than ESTJs). Guess he was a rarity specially when i compare them with a couple of ESTJs i've known, they can be indeed really sensitive about their own competence and status. What [MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION] said rings true ime too.

 

[LucyJr]

I'm glad I saw this, I would not have read it otherwise lol... There's a link to another website in that article that I'm absolutely in love with > http://www.infjorinfp.com/ You have to scroll down to find 'The Perfect Example of Fi' which is a pain to do so I'll just post what it says here:

A Perfect Example of Fi

When I read this, it struck me as an ideal example of introverted Feeling.

Author and lecturer Leo Buscaglia once talked about a contest he was asked to judge.

The purpose of the contest was to find the most caring child.

The winner was a four year-old child whose next-door neighbour was an elderly gentleman who had recently lost his wife.

Upon seeing the man cry, the little boy went into the old gentleman's yard, climbed onto his lap, and just sat there.

When his Mother asked what he had said to the neighbour, the little boy said,

"Nothing, I just helped him cry."

Love it, so much ^.^ totally tempted to edit it... lol but love it all the same.

Don't forget about ISFJs, who also have a first Fi function. They have the same dedication of feelings, intensity and moral qualities that Fi as a first function brings fourth are present in ISFJs.

 

[LucyJr]

Most the super macho man people that i've known are just emotionally reppresed and immature. Met a lot of people like that, not my kind of people anyway.

There are some people who try to immitate or act in a way that is supposed to be manly, and I think those are the people you are describing.

The most "masculine" person that i've know was my grandfather, and he was an ISTJ i think, he was pretty balanced, stoic, a gentleman (girls loved him, although he was a 70 y/o man), people always directed to him with extreme respect, although he was easy-going and humble, and had a really good sense of humor, sometimes he could be punitive and cold, also incredibly sarcastic, but overall, i think he found a really good balance between the two poles. but then, for me it's just maturity and a pretty refined character couple with intelligence, not really type related imo (Although i do get along with ISTJs more than ESTJs).

yeap, that sounds like a ISTJ. Its not type related but...its just how ISTJs are.

 

[LucyJr]

My BF is one of these types and I would say personality wise he is VERY masculine. He is not subject to emotions what so ever. Everything is logical and reasoned in his mind. He is also adventurous and an adrenaline junkie while at the same time very calm and laid back. He is able to be the center of attention and feel nothing about it but also able to step back and let others have their moment. He is very action oriented and likes to produce results, but also likes to speculate about big concept ideas.

I find he is a huge balance to my personality and I find that he really encompasses what I've always imagined an "ideal man" to be.

He sounds like he is a ISTP, the Se subtype.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

There are some people who try to immitate or act in a way that is supposed to be manly, and I think those are the people you are describing.

Yeah.

 

[Rcs6r]

Ideal in the abstract, archetypical sense perhaps... and perhaps within western cultures. On an individual level it gets kinda murky though.

When I think of masculine, I think of 'focused', 'orderly', 'logical' and 'linear'; inversely, feminine would be 'random', 'lateral', even erring towards chaotic. Males and females could be nurturing or protective, procreative, providing, etc.

I'm just going to leave this here as well.

 

[LucyJr]

If ESTJs are the ideal of masculinity, then what are ESTJ women, the ideal of tomboy-ness?
This is way those sort of questions don't make sense, because the problem is complicated, its not a onesided thing where a straight answer can be given.

I really like ESTJ men, they are like my heroes. Their courage, determination, steadfasteness and resolutness reminds me of the medieval descriptions of the choleric temperament, that have a "drive to greatness".
They appeal to me, as a ideal kind of person, someone that which I aspire to be.

But then what is with ESTJ women? To me personaly...their voice is coarse and "broken", with no delicacy. But right there are the same qualities that ESTJ males have...courage, determination, practical wisdom and many other virtues...its just that she is a woman...does that sudenly change anything?
So to be clear: as a INFJ male, I find no attraction in ESTJ women whatsoever, althought I like very much ESTJ men. Quite a paradox.

So could it mean that ESTJ women are not "womanly" or "feminine"? They are women... but they are not feminine?
To me yes...but what about a INFP male, for example? To a INFP male, a ESTJ woman is very feminine and pleasant. I'm not making this up, this is usualy the impression of INFP males on ESTJ females. ( just very soon, a friend of a friend of mine who is a INFP got married with a ESTJ woman. They meet, liked each other like magnets, and got married quikly).

If we apply the theological measure that differenciate between a man and a woman...it is a mistery. It is only written that they are different, altought very similar in many ways, but different, because that's how they were created. No, its not about rationality vs sentimentality (by the way, ESTPs, considered a stereotypicaly male type, are not very rational at all. Se is not a rational function, its a very spontaneous and perceiving function!), or about strenght or weakness, or about pride vs humility...its just that a man is different than a woman, and vice versa.

If we apply other standards...what are those? The feminist standards (I'm surprised no one mentioned this, because to me the thread itself logicaly is a insult to feminism!)? "Alpha ve beta" standards? (but there are some women who can not be "alphed" or intimidated in any way by any alpha male, for example a ESTP woman...alphas can wait in line for these kind of women!)?

 

[DonTaushMe]

Don't forget about ISFJs, who also have a first Fi function. They have the same dedication of feelings, intensity and moral qualities that Fi as a first function brings fourth are present in ISFJs.

My niece is an ISFJ, I love her much. She probably is about as quiet as I am... lol probably quieter

 

[SpecialEdition]

He sounds like he is a ISTP, the Se subtype.

Not 100% sure. I showed him a few personality types and he agreed with the EST whatever assessment. I had him take a test and he came out as INTJ/ENTP. When I did the test on his behalf based on what I have seen in his behaviour and thoughts over the 10 years I've known him and scored ESTP. After reading the type he says it's about as close as it can get. He does have some bouts of introversion but he is very actively social. Always chatting with friends, family, going out and doing things, making new friends everywhere he goes, etc. He's a phenomenal project lead at this job, super organized and on top of everything.

He is very calm but I think this comes after a few big life events which really switched how he sees the world and reacts to it.

He is very, very centered in himself and knows himself top to bottom more than anyone else I've ever seen. It's very interesting. He is the best person that I know, but I don't say that because we're together. He has just always been that way.

 

[La Sagna]

Not 100% sure. I showed him a few personality types and he agreed with the EST whatever assessment. I had him take a test and he came out as INTJ/ENTP. When I did the test on his behalf based on what I have seen in his behaviour and thoughts over the 10 years I've known him and scored ESTP. After reading the type he says it's about as close as it can get. He does have some bouts of introversion but he is very actively social. Always chatting with friends, family, going out and doing things, making new friends everywhere he goes, etc. He's a phenomenal project lead at this job, super organized and on top of everything.

He is very calm but I think this comes after a few big life events which really switched how he sees the world and reacts to it.

He is very, very centered in himself and knows himself top to bottom more than anyone else I've ever seen. It's very interesting. He is the best person that I know, but I don't say that because we're together. He has just always been that way.

He sounds ESTP.

 

[SpecialEdition]

He sounds ESTP.

Yeah I think he is. At first I thought he was ENTP or at least a bridge between ENTP and INTJ but after exploring the ESTP functions and personality I definitely think this fits him very well.

 

[La Sagna]

Don't ISFJs have Fe as their auxiliary function? They are SiFe.

 

[Umbriel]

probably. my tiny asian mom is an estj and she can tear you a new asshole larger than a legion of penises could.

Interestingly enough, my mother is also a tiny Asian ESTJ and this describes her very well.

If ESTJs are the ideal of masculinity, then what are ESTJ women, the ideal of tomboy-ness?
This is way those sort of questions don't make sense, because the problem is complicated, its not a onesided thing where a straight answer can be given.

I really like ESTJ men, they are like my heroes. Their courage, determination, steadfasteness and resolutness reminds me of the medieval descriptions of the choleric temperament, that have a "drive to greatness".
They appeal to me, as a ideal kind of person, someone that which I aspire to be.

But then what is with ESTJ women? To me personaly...their voice is coarse and "broken", with no delicacy. But right there are the same qualities that ESTJ males have...courage, determination, practical wisdom and many other virtues...its just that she is a woman...does that sudenly change anything?
So to be clear: as a INFJ male, I find no attraction in ESTJ women whatsoever, althought I like very much ESTJ men. Quite a paradox.

So could it mean that ESTJ women are not "womanly" or "feminine"? They are women... but they are not feminine?
To me yes...but what about a INFP male, for example? To a INFP male, a ESTJ woman is very feminine and pleasant. I'm not making this up, this is usualy the impression of INFP males on ESTJ females. ( just very soon, a friend of a friend of mine who is a INFP got married with a ESTJ woman. They meet, liked each other like magnets, and got married quikly).

If we apply the theological measure that differenciate between a man and a woman...it is a mistery. It is only written that they are different, altought very similar in many ways, but different, because that's how they were created. No, its not about rationality vs sentimentality (by the way, ESTPs, considered a stereotypicaly male type, are not very rational at all. Se is not a rational function, its a very spontaneous and perceiving function!), or about strenght or weakness, or about pride vs humility...its just that a man is different than a woman, and vice versa.

If we apply other standards...what are those? The feminist standards (I'm surprised no one mentioned this, because to me the thread itself logicaly is a insult to feminism!)? "Alpha ve beta" standards? (but there are some women who can not be "alphed" or intimidated in any way by any alpha male, for example a ESTP woman...alphas can wait in line for these kind of women!)?

There is no offense meant in saying this, but could it be that you feel emasculated in the presence of an ESTJ female? If another man is more masculine than you, then it is acceptable, but not a female? I think a strong, independent man is valued and accepted by society, but for strong, independent women this is not usually the case.