Do you think happiness is possible? | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Do you think happiness is possible?

David Nelson said:
I think the agnostic stance might initially seem the most sensible but this suggests the chance of a god or no god is the same, when the evidence and arguments (once deconstructed) suggest at least the biblical concept of a god is nonsense.

That’s why I’m an atheist. It doesn’t mean I know there is no God, I just don’t believe there is one in all probability, which fits the atheist belief system.
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Agnosticism doesn’t necessarily suggest that. For example, for myself, I would say I don’t know, how could I know, and if I knew, how could I be sure? My sense is to know is beyond my limits as a human being, so as to the yes or no, I never make it that far. I simply don’t know.

In any event, you sound like you fit a description of agnostic atheism.

Cheers,
Ian
 
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David Nelson said:
This might sound a vague title, but please bear with me. What I am thinking is do people believe it is a goal which is realistic and achievable, or ‘only’ an ideal to be aimed at?

It seems with the decline of religious beliefs in the west, that nothing has arisen to satisfy the urges for meaning in life. I think we need something to replace them, but is the current general belief only that life is essentially pointless and that we just aim to maximise our secular and relative happiness? If this is true, is happiness just relative? I’ll put aside my own beliefs for now, as I’m interested in what others think about this.
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In my own life I look at it as a state of mind and not a destination
 
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aeon said:
I fully agree that the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater in the move to a secular life if part of that move is to be so very certain that god is irrelevant, dead, or never existed—because this kind of rigid, purposefully-narrow thinking dismisses anything believed to be incongruous with the hard-won “progress.”

The perennial wisdom traditions from all around the globe have much to offer us that would serve us well, regardless of one’s thoughts on god, or lack thereof. I think this collective body of knowledge is dismissed or ignored at our peril.
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I didn't feel a "like" would suffice these words. I, for one, think these words full of wisdom. It is being sought methodically, and that will certainly destroy us. I am not a quitter, and having experienced as John K mentioned will turn one's head quickly. Our mere human frailties are being used against us. What? Did you hear that? Is humanity being divided? I love the side of the coin I am with, and cannot help but to hope and pray for those who are not. People must make a choice.
Or not.
 
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David Nelson said:
Sadly though, it takes religions to make good people do bad things. Religion has largely brought about its own demise and problems, and the western culture has embraced secular selfishness and individualism.
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That, if true, would be sad. It is sad to hear a person say that or know one thinks it. It almost makes me ill reading it. Care to find a noble link from a noble website to cite?
 
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I think it was Christopher Hitchens who said the thing about doing bad things. What it means is religions are usually more than a set of ideals. They usually include rules and political/moral stances. The ‘flock’ of said religions are then expected or choose to follow the religious rules blindly. When these rules are wrong, like circumcision, banning condoms in Africa, stoning people to death for adultery in ME etc etc, then otherwise good people do bad things.

This is one of the worst things about human religions: they discourage individual thought and questioning. They resist progress and usually are heavily embedded in corrupt establishments which Jesus himself would condemn if alive today. So many hypocrites.
 
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Wildfire said:
For what it's worth, I think we see things in much the same way.

When I consider the various versions of God I've encountered in the articulations of others my position might move from agnostic to atheistic or even anti-theistic if warranted, but I do still feel drawn to play around and interact with the concept of God. In truth it isn't hard for me to envision a relationship with a conception of God that serves a psycho-spiritual need. This is about a relationship with a personification of ideals though, as well as a way to engage with a hunger for growth. More simply put, it feels like working with and relating to archetypes in a very personal way.
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I agree, a good example is any sort of dystopian civilization movie or book, the writers in those recognise the human need for some belief beyond themselves, even if it's just to meet a psycho-spiritual need. I watched the series Severance recently, where it captured it pretty well, their semi god figure may not have been believed, but it at least served as a form of high morale or strive for general goodness.
 
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Maybe when we die we will find out Earth is the equivalent of a 4th-grade class project by a group of alien “children” who are a little over six billion years old.

Cheers,
Ian
 
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aeon said:
Maybe when we die we will find out Earth is the equivalent of a 4th-grade class project by a group of alien “children” who are a little over six billion years old.

Cheers,
Ian
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:smile:
 
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Maybe we will find out God's will on this earth and it's connection to faith.
 
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After trying to digest that, it had flavor but no substance: We are still hungry for meat. We try to do God's will, but sit the sword down at the foot of the cross. We feel We have learned this lesson on this step, but are unwilling to stand in His Presence unless He stands Us up with Him.

We pray for mercy for all, knowing the writings and prophecies, yet question whether We should stand up in His Presence. Why? We are happy to be at His Feet. We love being in His Presence. We saw how He took it on the chin for Us all.

While others feel weakness, per chance they don't know what they are up against. We know We will stand, but how deserving are We? It is because of His Spirit that is within Us we are capable. Someone must be holding Us back, or do We wait on the Lord?

Although the fig tree shall not blossom
Habakkuk 3:17-19
King James Version

17 Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:

18 Yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation.

19 The Lord God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.


These words were written before The Comforter was sent. Happy Easter and Good Friday.
 
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David Nelson said:
I think my opening post was too vague. I didn’t nail the issue I was trying to address.

I think what I mean is, is happiness really possible in the absense of a fully satisfactory framework which addresses the intellectual and emotional desire of INFJs to be real in the experience. Sure, we all experience happiness as we all experience unhappiness at times. So what I mean is, will there always be unfulfilled needs in our psyche? If we ‘need’ to experience the top of Maslows hierarchy, can that really be met with a secular view based on evolution and science only? Do we have to believe in an illusion? I might as well as is love real? Lol or is it enough just to experience it based on believing it? What IS real? I guess you could ask.
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David Nelson said:
I think my opening post was too vague. I didn’t nail the issue I was trying to address.

I think what I mean is, is happiness really possible in the absense of a fully satisfactory framework which addresses the intellectual and emotional desire of INFJs to be real in the experience. Sure, we all experience happiness as we all experience unhappiness at times. So what I mean is, will there always be unfulfilled needs in our psyche? If we ‘need’ to experience the top of Maslows hierarchy, can that really be met with a secular view based on evolution and science only? Do we have to believe in an illusion? I might as well as is love real? Lol or is it enough just to experience it based on believing it? What IS real? I guess you could ask.
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Well, I got this far and nobody has already said my answer. So I'm going to gamble that nobody else has in the next 2.5 pages and go ahead and give my answer :)

It is physical impossible to permanently achieve happiness. But happiness is still worth pursuing. That's because psychologists tell us that happiness isn't a static zero-force state where all of our needs are met. It's a dynamic state in which your needs are becoming more met than they were before.

The problem is that this can lead to a "hedonic treadmill." It's fairly easy to satisfy the needs low down on Maslow's. It's a lot harder to satisfy the ones higher up. It's very hard to self-actualize so hard that you get the same rush of happiness as you do when you're eating for the first time in three days.

You would agree that INFJs are always looking towards the future, and it's hard to satisfy you. So it's hard to make you happy. But at least you're usually not in the position of having satisfied every single need you can think of, but being still not happy. Stuck on the hedonic treadmill.

At least I hope I'm right about that last bit. Uh, INTP, good with the truth, not so good with the pep-talks.
 
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Dan Philosophy said:
It's a lot harder to satisfy the ones higher up. It's very hard to self-actualize so hard that you get the same rush of happiness as you do when you're eating for the first time in three days.
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This is why fasting is important. I say this half-jokingly.
 
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