Do you believe in redemption? | INFJ Forum

Do you believe in redemption?

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by efromm, Jul 18, 2008.

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  1. efromm

    efromm Hiding In My Shell...
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    This week I had a friend go into the hospitol. He almost died. His Aorta tore and he had a broken valve in his heart. He is 57. At one time I respected this guy but over the years I have lost respect for him. His poor business dealings with others. His non stop using and manipulation of others and myself drove me away. I have distanced myself from this guy for a few years so I was not privy to his life. Wich suited me fine. Thru another friend I ended up getting involved monday when he went to the hospitol. I ended up going with his xwife to the hospitol to be a nice guy. But inside I really did not want to go. I went and as I looked at his lifeless body I could'nt feel sorry for him. I felt no real emotion at all. I was totally detached from the situation. I have been thru a situation before like this and it did not turn out too well. So I was remembering my past experiences with him and I started feeling like he deserved to be there.

    You also have to realise that this guy was a constant one upper. He would always try to tear you down to make himself look better. Or he is so self absorbed he can't see past what he is doing to others around him. My intuition tells me that this guy will never change. As soon as he woke up he started being his old self. I wonder when he finds out how screwed he is if he will change. His surgeon told me that he has fifteen years to live at best. I wonder if he will use the time god gave him to make ammends. Or just go on acting the same?

    I know if I was in his shoes I would change. Just by being there it has changed me. It reminded me that when the chips are down who will be your friend. I am not going out of my way for this guy. I think he needs to learn a lesson. Not that I hav'nt helped him in the past. That's why I am not helping him today. It went unapperciated. I would love nothing more than to see him turn his life around. I want to respect him again. But right now I am with holding judgement. I am gonna wait and see what happens with him. But I wonder sometimes if people really realize that there life is precious. That they have the power to change their life for better or worse. I have cut the drama from my life and this guy was a major drama for me. I hope he see's the light. But it seems that my faith in humanity shrinks as I grow older. I have decided to not let others make me cold and calloused. But to instead listen and learn before I make a snap decision. I am forgiving but you have to earn it. I don't think my friend has it in him to change. What do you think? Have you ever had a similar situation with some one you knew?
     
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  2. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    Change is not always something that can be achieved by choice. And often the people around a person have to change for the better before they can change for the better. So I don't really believe in redemption. What I believe is that I have to do my best to become a stronger person so others have a chance to change as well. I can only control my choices and so that is the only way I can live.
     
  3. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    I believe that others choices are within my realm of control, as well as my own. As a superior person with greater mental capacity than most people, and better moral capacity than most people, it's my fault if people around me make bad choices. That's my personal philosophy. It's a form of egomania, I know. But it does drive me to try and get those I care about to make the best possible choices, and not let them alone for making bad ones.

    People who are bad inside need more aid than those who are not. That said I'm lazy and self centred, your issue with your friend looks like it would take more effort than I'd bother putting in. I think I'd take the same route and just cut off all emotional support. Question becomes, do you want to be on my level, or better than me?
     
  4. Kwistalline

    Kwistalline Permanent Fixture

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    What is meant by redemption? The basic meaning refers to the release from captivity, or repayment of a debt. The condition of being free or uninhibited by something. This release, though, has several applications.

    The most popular use of this word is in reference to the spiritual world. Redemption (or, "release") from sin, for example. I believe we use it synonymously with "salvation", but it does appear to have much stronger connotations . . .

    Another popular usage would be in reference to an object gained, "redeeming" a loan, a coupon, etc.

    We can also use it in as an adjective. To describe how we feel about something "these are, indeed, redeeming values".

    The common thought is the exchange of one thing for another, namely, for possession, whether that possession be a physical tangible thing, or an ideal, such as freedom. Redemption of a loan could be an example of this. I pay you in full, you no longer infringe upon my various freedom's, or my freedom to spend how I wish . . .

    I guess my point is, when one asks "do you believe in redemption", I invariable think "what am I being redeemed from? Or what is being redeemed to me?" The answer would appear to be something simple, such as the good opinion of another. A worthy desire, I think. To release oneself from another's bad opinion, or to purchase, as it were, their good opinion . . . would be something worth pursuing, and is very possible-depending on my ability to "redeem" the behaviors or influences that led to my situation. To release myself from my own bad behavior? That is harder than faking it in order to be redeemed in another's eyes. I can pretend to be worthy. Whethor or not I am is the type of redemption that I think matters the most. The sincerity of my position. Can I be redeemed from my bad ways? That is between me and God (or fate, as some would have it). I believe in redemption. But that requires change, and I do not believe implicitly in man's ability to recognize or act upon the need for change. Some sincerely desire to do what is right by the world. For them, redemption of all forms is possible. Some only are about themselves. Again, redemption of all forms will be much harder to obtain. Maybe even impossible.

    I believe redemption involves the exchange of one's self for an ideal or standard outside of oneself in order to experience a special type of freedom . . .
     
  5. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    Um...yeah, I don't really see how it is possible to control other people's choices unless you are outright threatening or manipulating them. That is not something I could do, but perhaps it is within your "realm". Of course, I think you have to relinquish the title of "better moral capacity" if that is the case.
     
  6. Kwistalline

    Kwistalline Permanent Fixture

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    ooh, Satya, well put!
     
  7. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Morals are subjective, it's the ends not the means that matter.
     
  8. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    Morality is a survival trait naturally selected to improve the chances of the next generation and it is achieved through an empathetical understanding of pain and suffering. That is the end and means of morality. By those means, it is inherently flexible, and appears subjective, but the end aim is always the same regardless of whether or not we are conscious of it. Survival and progression of the species takes precedence over our own individual well being, happiness, and survival. That is the true nature of morality.
     
  9. Silently Honest

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    Redemption is one of the things I deem relative.
     
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  10. HenRick

    HenRick Community Member

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    I guess you could help someone go through the right path by leading them with compasion.
    They might be able to change if either his friends and family help or he experiances something that changes his
    life like suffering or something. After they suffer and have more humilty some one could then guide them in the
    right direction or he could act on anger and revenge.
    I think that the guy efromm was talking about my not have suffered enough (emotionally).
    He might need to be "awakened" like Budda. Maybe being elightened is remedetion?

    Maybe it's was bad parenting that caused it?

    Note I'm not Buddist but I'm reading a book in portugese about him.
     
  11. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    Regardless of what you do, it is still their choice. You can try to influence them all you want via compassion, suffering, etc. but they make the choice, and nobody can make it for them.
     
  12. OP
    efromm

    efromm Hiding In My Shell...
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    So here is an update. He didn't change at all!! LOL It seems that in his mind he is ok. I guess it's hard to break old habits and thinking patterns. I am just glad that I don't have to be a part of the circle of friends who will be getting used. I was only concerned because everyone around him was talking poorly of him in the hospitol. It seems that he spread his misery around and he will have to live with it. I guess I will just have to call it you make the bed you sleep in! :D

    Life to me is so much more than any object or money. My interactions with my family and freinds is what matters to me and I want them supporting me not tearing me down. I know that at some point I will die. It's in that moment that I want my wife beside me holding my hand. It's nice to know that you are truely loved and cared for. I can't buy that... ;)
     
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  13. sumone

    sumone down the rabbit hole

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    Yeah, it doesn't surprise me that he didn't change. He gets what he wants using whatever means to get it and it's working for him. He probably doesn't believe in sin so really what's the need for redemption. And redemption means a promise of change and for this type of person the effort would be too much. They don't see any reason for change.
    "It's all about me!" That's their motto and they're sticking with it!
    I had a friend like this who had a heart attack. Everyone went to see him in the hospital and he had tears in his eyes and love in his heart because of all the attention he was getting. Everyone wondered if he might change; I think he was on the fence but it didn't last long. He's back to lusting for money, power and possessions. He's all about one upmanship and is delusional enough to think people are impressed by it all.
    I don't harbour any ill will toward him though and as far as I'm concerned there's nothing to forgive because he's just going by his true nature. I feel bad for the friendships he's lost and the people he's hurt.
    For his 45th birthday my husband had a picture of this guys face blown up and put on posters with an X through his face. Then we videotaped ourselves posting them all over town. We had all kinds of people in all kinds of places on camera looking at the poster and either screaming or saying, "NO! NO!" It was probably one of the most creative things I've ever done! On his birthday it was us, this guy and his wife having drinks and dinner at their house. Once we all had a nice buzz going we put on the tape and he absolutely loved it! He said, "I've never had good friends like you!"
    But we don't see them anymore. I pulled the plug when he turned on my husband.
     
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  14. qwertski

    qwertski Newbie

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    Yes. Stretch your patience. As my mother keeps telling me, "Be good even if others are not." Keep loving. ;)
     
  15. OP
    efromm

    efromm Hiding In My Shell...
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    New update!! LOL Now this guy is trash talking me!! Was talking to a mutual friend the other day and he was telling me all the negative crap steve has been spreading about me. I think it's kinda funny when people stare death in the face and ignore the warning signs. He says I burned him when he was in the hospitol and I made his life difficult. Well maybe if he would just take some responsibility for himself he might be able to redeem him self with others. The nice thing is I'ts not my problem. I cut him loose. I have decided to cut the drama in my life and he was a drama mama victim. Always blaming everyone else except himself. I have gotten a real kick out of the whole situation :D . lol
     
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