Differences between men and women | INFJ Forum

Differences between men and women

Hector

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Oct 16, 2014
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"The fundamental difference between the sexes is that women give birth to their offspring, whilst men can not. Men and women do not differ in degree but differ in kind.

Parental investment. In all species, the relative investment that is made by the male and the female in their offspring determines the degree of discrimination exercised by the individual in selecting a partner. In humans, like many mammals and most of animals, females can be expected to be the more discriminating in their choice of mates. Therefore females limit the reproductive success of males and men compete with other men for access to women. Male-male competition leads to dimorphism in body size, with men larger than women. Men exist in a dominance hierarchy, whilst women do not. A man first has to deceive a woman about the reality of the future, and to do this effectively he has to deceive himself, this leads to greater overconfidence in men as compared to women (see Barber and Odean (2001)). Women are the privileged sex, whilst men are relatively expendable. This manifests itself in various ways:
General

Throughout the entire history of the human race, maybe 80% of women but only 40% of men reproduced (Baumeister 2007).
Males invest less and seek quantity of mates, while females invest more and seek quality of mates.
Women are at best deeply suspicious of most men, but there is no corresponding feeling in men for women: no normal man hates women, and psychopaths simply have no feelings for anyone, male or female. Women’s prejudice against ordinary men manifests itself with terminology such as ‘loser’ or ‘jerk’ aimed at men who are often guilty of nothing more than being not of sufficiently high status.
Women specialize in the narrow sphere of intimate relationships, whilst men specialize in the larger group (Baumeister 2007).
Female circumcision is considered a serious crime, whilst male circumcision is considered a joke.
In developed countries a father is forced to pay for a child’s upkeep without any corresponding rights of parenthood or even of access.
Rudman and Goodwin (2004) found that men prefer men to women at a ratio of 1.58:1, whilst women prfer women to men at a ratio of 8.43:1. On aggregate, this means that people prefer women to men at a ratio of 1.79:1.
Women would divide money equally, with an equal share for everybody; men, in contrast, would divide it unequally, giving the biggest share of reward to whoever had done the most work (Baumeister 2007).
On the Titanic, the richest men had a lower survival rate (34%) than the poorest women (46%) (although that’s not how it looked in the film) (Baumeister 2007)."
 
"A man first has to deceive a woman about the reality of the future, and to do this effectively he has to deceive himself, this leads to greater overconfidence in men as compared to women (see Barber and Odean (2001))."

Fascinated about what you wrote/quoted above - are you able to elaborate, give examples, share personal experience, etc....if possible?
 
"A man first has to deceive a woman about the reality of the future, and to do this effectively he has to deceive himself, this leads to greater overconfidence in men as compared to women (see Barber and Odean (2001))."

Fascinated about what you wrote/quoted above - are you able to elaborate, give examples, share personal experience, etc....if possible?

The only part you are interested in is the one that presents men in a negative light while also insinuating that I might have a personal experience to share in order to give you a material which would later be used in an ad hominem manner.

This preemptive concept of yours only confirms that facts presented in this article are nothing short of truth.
 
The only part you are interested in is the one that presents men in a negative light while also insinuating that I might have a personal experience to share in order to give you a material which would later be used in an ad hominem manner.

This preemptive concept of yours only confirms that facts presented in this article are nothing short of truth.
Wait. You posted information you found interesting, and then immediately felt defensive when someone took interest in what you posted?

lolwut.jpg
 
A man first has to deceive a woman about the reality of the future, and to do this effectively he has to deceive himself, this leads to greater overconfidence in men as compared to women (see Barber and Odean (2001)).
I find the word deceive weird in this context. The first bit about seems quite correct, but deceiving?
You use a source to back your claim. I hope I found the right article: http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/odean/papers/gender/BoysWillBeBoys.pdf
There's no mention of deceive in there. Nor reality. The word future appears once, but in a genderless context.
The source backs your claim that men have greater overconfidence than women. But you make a bigger claim. You claim a causal link between men deceiving women and themselves and overconfidence in men. This seems really weird and isn't backed in the article. This is probably why Isabella asked for clarification.

Women’s prejudice against ordinary men manifests itself with terminology such as ‘loser’ or ‘jerk’ aimed at men who are often guilty of nothing more than being not of sufficiently high status.
Wow wow wow. This is a ridiculous assumption. The same can be said about terminology like slut, whore, bitch or whatever. Women have prejudices. Men have prejudices. Humans have them. It's not related to gender.
An interesting observation that somewhat looks like your assumption is the following. When a guy approaches a girl in a funny way, the girl can approve or disprove. It is common that unattractive guys are then disproved and seen as creepy. Whereas if a cute attractive guy does the same, it'd be approved and seen as romantically. Attractiveness can be linked to your state of "being not of sufficiently high status".

In developed countries a father is forced to pay for a child’s upkeep without any corresponding rights of parenthood or even of access.
I wouldn't call that country developed in gender equity.

What's the point of your post? What are you trying to say?
The thread title implies you want to tell about differences. You only represented differences that negatively affect men.
The points you give tell how sexism also affects men. Is that your goal?
 
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Wait. You posted information you found interesting, and then immediately felt defensive when someone took interest in what you posted?

View attachment 22355

Nah, just realistic. Someone else got defensive hence a clarification was in order. It is as if someone moves a pawn to a certain position, you usually "know" what will be the next move. Don't take it so personal..
 
I find the word deceive weird in this context. The first bit about seems quite correct, but deceiving?
You use a source to back your claim. I hope I found the right article: http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/odean/papers/gender/BoysWillBeBoys.pdf
There's no mention of deceive in there. Nor reality. The word future appears once, but in a genderless context.
The source backs your claim that men have greater overconfidence than women. But you make a bigger claim. You claim a causal link between men deceiving women and themselves and overconfidence in men. This seems really weird and isn't backed in the article. This is probably why Isabella asked for clarification.


Wow wow wow. This is a ridiculous assumption. The same can be said about terminology like slut, whore, bitch or whatever. Women have prejudices. Men have prejudices. Humans have them. It's not related to gender.
An interesting observation that somewhat looks like your assumption is the following. When a guy approaches a girl in a funny way, the girl can approve or disprove. It is common that unattractive guys are then disproved and seen as creepy. Whereas if a cute attractive guy does the same, it'd be approved and seen as romantically. Attractiveness can be linked to your state of "being not of sufficiently high status".


I wouldn't call that country developed in gender equity.

What's the point of your post? What are you trying to say?
The thread title implies you want to tell about differences. You only represented differences that negatively affect men.
The points you give tell how sexism also affects men. Is that your goal?

Nah, I doubt Isabela bothered with looking at the source. Nice of you to step in her defence, but people are usually superficial. True about attractivenes, it can represent higher status, untill you say you are a constructon worker or a garbage disposal service or whatever low paying jobs there are. Your cuteness will disssapear before you can say "damn". Reverse sexism is real, and all that bullshit about poor and opressed women maked me puke. Thr goal, if any, is to spread the truth, not a politically correct one, but a completely honest and a blunt one that most people won't believe or dare to believe.
 
[MENTION=12378]Hector[/MENTION] - What an incredible presumptuous response....but rather than be dismissive, I will at least try to understand where you might be coming from.

I thought your opening summary was well thought out, clear and factually presented (I say factually because you cited references etc....you'll have to forgive me as I didn't get the chance to do my own personal research because it was late yesterday night when I posted, I had been sitting at my desk in front of my pc — it was a very long day, I was tired, my eyes needed to rest). I genuinely and wholeheartedly enjoyed reading what you had to say! Believe what you like but that's the truth!

Your question gave me a new perspective (possibly a clue) in trying to understand a thought that has been whizzing around in my head for a while. I was thinking (a few days ago) how difficult it must be to be a man in this day and age and the social pressures they face from other men as well as from women. I was trying to think of the factors contributing to men being more competitive than they are and consequently how this could lead to a false sense of deception....YES the word deceive certainly caught my attention! (I was focusing primarily more on the behavioural side of things and how the interplay in both sexes could perpetuate superficial outcomes)....hence why I was drawn to that particular quote....anyway blah blah...best send before this post disappears.
 
@ Hector - My question was quite innocent...I wanted to know more so I asked for further elaboration, examples, personal experience because I wanted something concrete that I could work with, expand my understanding, not just think in isolation, make sense of things, connect the dots etc and I had no intention of using it as ammunition against you. If by asking you a question meant I was putting you in a vulnerable position...it really wasn't my attention.

There were lots of interesting things in your post....

“Men and women do not differ in degree but differ in kind.” I like that!

“Therefore females limit the reproductive success of males and men compete with other men for access to women.” I agree!

“Women are the privileged sex, whilst men are relatively expendable.” While I think it's easier (in the wider context) to be a woman these days (with the exception of women in developing countries), I do NOT think men are expendable!

I think the question about high status is a good one too...I was only talking to my hubby the other day about this very question (in relation to how some women build their ideals on a false premise and desires which hardly get challenged).

I can go on but I'm tired and have a report to finish off. For the moment, I'll leave you to it unless of course you've already decided not to interact with me. Thank you.

PS — I notice there is a “Men vs Women” thread which I have yet to explore — hope to do so at some point as there’s definitely another layer of conversation going on here that I am oblivious to.

@ Erlian — Thanks for finding and posting the main source — I’ll read it when I get a few minutes.
 
I think Kindergarten Cop summed it up best: "boys have a penis and girls have a vagina."
 
I apologise Isabella, it indeed was rather presumptious of me to make such a claim. When I catch some more time to answer, I will do so thoroughly.
 
I dont understand the concept here. Everyone on this planet lives in their own world. Everyone perceives it differently. To say that all women view it in a specific way just because they are women is an assumption based from a flawed way of thinking. Do women have concerns outside of mens concerns? Clearly. Men will never fully understand a womans perspective. Its impossible just as it is for a woman to understand a mans perspective.
 
Reverse sexism is real, and all that bullshit about poor and opressed women maked me puke. Thr goal, if any, is to spread the truth, not a politically correct one, but a completely honest and a blunt one that most people won't believe or dare to believe.
I agree that if someone would talk about sexism right now it's about women being oppressed and not about men. While you are mostly correct about the downsides for men, the women are ALSO being oppressed. It goes both ways. You made the same mistake they did. They say women are oppressed. You say men are oppressed. The world would be a better place if they considered your arguments and if you didn't puke if they speak about oppressed women.

You call them out on only seeing one side of the story, but you seem to make the same mistake yourself.

@ Erlian – Thanks for finding and posting the main source – I’ll read it when I get a few minutes.
I don't think it was really relevant. Also to both. I worded it wrong in my post. I thought Isabella questioned that part because it sounds weird. But I make it look like I assumed Isabella read it too.
Certainly because Hector didn't supply a link, one can hardly expect to find those sources. Nor did Hector anywhere give the title or journal of the article. The claim was so weird that a question about it was justified even though Hector used a source.
 
I dont understand the concept here. Everyone on this planet lives in their own world. Everyone perceives it differently. To say that all women view it in a specific way just because they are women is an assumption based from a flawed way of thinking. Do women have concerns outside of mens concerns? Clearly. Men will never fully understand a womans perspective. Its impossible just as it is for a woman to understand a mans perspective.

No not really...in fact your thinking is flawed here because you fail to realise cultural impacts on how people think

Also you are ignoring scientific evidence of group think

I'll give you a perfect example

The big tobacco companies approached the nephew of siegmund Freud (edward bernays) because he had created the first Public Relations company and asked him if he could double their market by getting women to smoke as well (it was seen as a male activity upto then)

bernays then paid some women to smoke cigarettes during a protest in New York and he arranged for his contacts in the media to be present and ready to report and photo these women marching with their cigarettes

The women then told the reporters the cigarettes were 'freedom sticks' and they published this in the newspapers and of course when women around the US heard that they all wanted to smoke to assert their 'freedom'

Bernays also got contacts in hollywood to get strong actresses to smoke on screen (think of icons like marlene dietricht)

This all led to many women smoking and to the health problems that leads to

But the point is people are susceptible to mass manipulation
 
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No not really...in fact your thinking is flawed here because you fail to realise cultural impacts on how people think

Also you are ignoring scientific evidence of group think

I'll give you a perfect example

The big tobacco companies approached the nephew of siegmund Freud (edward bernays) because he had created the first Public Relations company and asked him if he could double their market by getting women to smoke as well (it was seen as a male activity upto then)

bernays then paid some women to smoke cigarettes during a protest in New York and he arranged for his contacts in the media to be present and ready to report and photo these women marching with their cigarettes

The women then told the reporters the cigarettes were 'freedom sticks' and they published this in the newspapers and of course when women around the US heard that they all wanted to smoke to assert their 'freedom'

Bernays also got contacts in hollywood to get strong actresses to smoke on screen (think of icons like marlene dietricht)

This all led to many women smoking and to the health problems that leads to

But the point is people are susceptible to mass manipulation

Damn why aren't you a woman..
 
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“Women are the privileged sex, whilst men are relatively expendable.” While I think it's easier (in the wider context) to be a woman these days (with the exception of women in developing countries), I do NOT think men are expendable!

Well, it is nice of you to think like that, but you are a minority.

Regarding deception:

"Women wish to attract high status men (plus reliability for long-term partners) and to achieve this they simply need to appear youthful, look attractive and behave selfishly. Women list significantly more traits in their demands; and place a strong emphasis on cues related to wealth and status. Women may also seek potential status in a man. If a man wishes to attain a mate of higher value than his status would normally allow, he first has to deceive a woman about his reliability in the future (and to do this effectively he has to deceive himself) and then maintain the illusion by actually hanging around in the early years of his children’s lives. Women simply do not understand that really what they are experiencing when they select a man to fall in love with, is that they are not so much ‘falling in love’ as ‘falling in respect’. They don’t seem to grasp that it is the various facets of male status that are their selecting criteria, and instead imagine that it is something to do with a chance stumbling on a Mr Right in terms of a constellation of personality factors with which they mysteriously gel (plus the ‘tall dark and handsome’ thing). You’ve seen the films when a man and a woman literally bump into each other in a corridor and one of them drops some books and the other helps to pick them up. And then they fall in love. It may not be reality, but it is a stylization of a dream romance (according to the woman). Women speak of certain men being ‘good in bed’, when in fact they are nothing of the sort, they are simply perceived as being of high status. The tragedy that the world is run by rich, arrogant, war-mongering and frequently good looking men (rather than those best equipped to do the job) is because women select for these characteristics. They spend their lives attempting to place themselves in the path of high status men, then complain when their high status partner (such as a trader in the city) doesn’t have time for them. Men who show consideration and give their time are implying that they need to do so, so are effectively signalling their low status. Ironically, despite being in complete control of the (largely predictable) dating game, women often have a poor grasp of what is actually going on."
 
We cannot talk about humans as if we are only animals. We are animals yes. There's biological and hormonal tendencies. However we are the most adaptable animal on the planet cognitively. This means that we do not necessarily have our priorities dictated to us through biology alone. Moreover, urges are below subconscious, they're chemical, so it is inaccurate to say that a man or woman "wants" any of these things or "has these priorities" because that's not how it works unless one is incredibly simple and only knows their base compulsions, which isn't usually the case.

Men and women have imagination. We have metacognition. We can think but also we can think about thinking and analyze the meta sense of what we think about. We can change our priorities. This doesn't mean that we don't feel an urge to do this or that, but that urge doesn't run us. In many cases it is the last thing people think about.
 
Damn why aren't you a woman..

Sorry dude

There are a few oddities i'll be taking up with the management at galactic central when i see them
 
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We cannot talk about humans as if we are only animals. We are animals yes. There's biological and hormonal tendencies. However we are the most adaptable animal on the planet cognitively. This means that we do not necessarily have our priorities dictated to us through biology alone. Moreover, urges are below subconscious, they're chemical, so it is inaccurate to say that a man or woman "wants" any of these things or "has these priorities" because that's not how it works unless one is incredibly simple and only knows their base compulsions, which isn't usually the case.

Men and women have imagination. We have metacognition. We can think but also we can think about thinking and analyze the meta sense of what we think about. We can change our priorities. This doesn't mean that we don't feel an urge to do this or that, but that urge doesn't run us. In many cases it is the last thing people think about.

oxitocin, norepinefrin, serotonin, endorfins, etc.

That's all there is to it.

In the future they will learn how to control the amygdalas in order to suppress the fear.
 
oxitocin, norepinefrin, serotonin, endorfins, etc.

That's all there is to it.

In the future they will learn how to control the amygdalas in order to suppress the fear.

That doesn't explain why we're having this "discussion" (yes I used quotes)

If we were this simple, we wouldn't be talking about it, we'd be doing it.