Did you encounter Principles and Beliefs within you that were non self-determined?
- Thread starter Impact Character
- Start date
I read a biography of a woman who escaped from North Korea. She mentioned something I thought was very interesting. While being able to get a glimpse of foreign media through the black market, or seeing the lights of China on the border, they still have an undying belief that North Korea is the best country on earth, despite famine and the ruling regime. There is this inner dissonance between the two thoughts that while they can clearly see that people are better off in China, they still believe that North Korea is better. I haven't read it myself, but she mentioned that it wasn't until she read George Orwell's animal farm that she came to understand that she hold these two very conflicting ideas. Something so tangible while in the midst of it, yet so apparently dissonant looking in from the outside.
I've this awkward moment where I enjoy it immensly that your post is not only very interesting but also adds the "inside/internal - outside/external" theme on another level. *hihi* thank you ^^
There's for sure also a shared bias!.. Even more: not only a bias of national identity.. or family.. also maybe the circle of friends.. the neighbourhood..and so on and so forth..
Sharing a bias can be a very strong bond.. and it also can be very limiting.
I just fear those moments where the bias is slightly taking a bad turn (from being maybe once something idealistic and great) and turn into something completely different (harmful beliefs, racism, overseeing propaganda, crime or famine etc.).
If people stick too close with people that share the same bias - if they only live there..and only get their news from the same mental place. it's usually very stagnant and.. well.. self assuring..
I think it is very important to leave hometown (literally and metaphorically): It's not only learning more about other cultures (thoughts, ideas, systems) but also about yourself (identity, national identity, etc.).. it makes you cherish those people alot who disagree or/and the totally different personal stories and experiences they tell..
That's when inner dissonance and conflicting ideas within.. (that pretty much points it out) ..are way easier to grasp.
A good chance to get aware of something inhibiting.. and a good chance to maybe also "import" something more functional/healthier from the strange lands.
..What an experience that must have been for her reading Animal farm...fiuf
hat's when inner dissonance and conflicting ideas within.. (that pretty much points it out) ..are way easier to grasp.
A good chance to get aware of something inhibiting.. and a good chance to maybe also "import" something more functional/healthier from the strange lands.
This is a very interesting example and seems to me to be qualitatively different from, say, a feeling of inadequacy arising from bad experiences as a teenager that means we set our life goals too timidly. There is something about our country, the place within it that we grow up in and the family we belong to that forms a fundamental part of our personal identity - it's part of who we think we are. If that foundation is shaken or removed we can go through a severe identity crisis. I can see this is one of the factors that is making Brexit so divisive in the UK. There are some of us, particularly people who live in England and Wales but outside London, and mainly of the older generations, who identify with the UK. We feel the EU is robbing us of our essential Englishness. Younger people and most Londoners are the opposite - they feel themselves to be citizens of the EU and have little feeling of belonging to the UK, so they are going through a deep identity crisis as we prepare to leave. I'm sure this is why the polarised feelings, which can be a combination of anger and a sort of grief, are running so high and seem to be quite irrational. This is only part of the story and of course there a raft of other aspects of something like this which are much more rational, but this identity thing is very deep in us all.
I totally agree. Actually I wanted to write about how it felt making serious experiences outside of Germany (and Europe) and then coming back to a Germany that started thinking more of "we are Europe"...and identifying strongly with it.
I can imagine that it is a different story coming from a country, where the Englishness is connected to a very self-aware identity and with a rich imperial history.
Whereas Germany... well.. the matter of identity is and always has been a difficult topic..and we all know how that ended.
It's funny how international football (soccer for everyone else ) actually helped Germans gain a little bit of national identity with positive association (maybe..a bit... probably.. a little *haha*).
Embracing a "this is us" sense with everyone else in Europe feels like a very natural step. (Not that there weren't people here who think differently too, of course.. .. ..)) actually helped Germans gain a little bit of national identity with positive association (maybe..a bit... probably.. a little *haha*).Letting something strange in shouldn't end up in total dissolving.. it's the same fear elsewhere on the bottom of things.. where they talk about western culture..
Actually I think (from personal experience), I gained a much better understanding of my Germaness by doing so (risking the fear of dissolving and being reborn).
Edit: these topics are of course much more complex (politics, economy etc etc) but this sense of identity level write history just as much as all of the other aspects do.
I quite agree with what you are saying - an identity crisis is often a healthy thing if it forces us to grow, and if we are able to navigate it successfully. Living abroad in different cultures can help us to see and understand our own, very much better and is a maturing experience. I worked in an international Pharma company before I retired and enjoyed being in teams of people from the USA and Scandinavia for a lot of the time - never spending more than a few weeks at a time away from home, but getting to know people from other countries pretty well.I totally agree. Actually I wanted to write about how it felt making serious experiences outside of Germany (and Europe) and then coming back to a Germany that started thinking more of "we are Europe"...and identifying strongly with it.
I can imagine that it is a different story coming from a country, where the Englishness is connected to a very self-aware identity and with a rich imperial history.
Whereas Germany... well.. the matter of identity is and always has been a difficult topic..and we all know how that ended.
It's funny how international football (soccer for everyone elseEmbracing a "this is us" sense with everyone else in Europe feels like a very natural step. (Not that there weren't people here who think differently too, of course.. .. ..)
Letting something strange in shouldn't end up in total dissolving.. it's the same fear elsewhere on the bottom of things.. where they talk about western culture..
Actually I think (from personal experience), I gained a much better understanding of my Germaness by doing so (risking the fear of dissolving and being reborn).
I highly value reason and criticism. In fact, I feel deeply offended when others fail to commit to them.. This isn't a value I learned either. It is instinctive.
There are a couple of things I need to get some distance from.. myself. It's a tough learning process especially the subtle consequences and beliefs that formed underneath..
...Some of the themes you talk about are very very familiar..
Please feel free to tell.. I really do love personal stories.. they really matter in all colorful variety..
A couple more thoughts Impact Character ....
I've put this one out in a number of different threads over the months, but it seems very relevant here so I'll repeat it. When I was a child at primary school, aged 7-11, I was overweight, timid, clever and opinionated. This didn't make me very popular with the other kids and I got bullied quite a bit. I compensated by using my cleverness to gain the approval of adults - I always found them easier company than the other kids. I also used it to establish intellectual superiority over people my own age which gave me a strong sense of self-value, a tower from which I could look down in safety on others. Looking back now, I can see that I used Ni and Fe a lot to suss people out and establish how best to do both of these, but my Fe was subverted and went underground to some extent in favour of the thinking functions. We never really recover fully from these childhood experiences, and even now I have a visceral mistrust of others, though it's pretty well in the background - but it springs out into battle if I'm in socially stressful situations and I have to watch myself sometimes to stop trying to get one over on others by being smart. So in summary I learned to use intellectual (and sometimes moral) superiority to compensate for feeling inadequate or insecure. Several other people in the forum have said that this is similar to their own experience.
Another thought, and this is about typology. I do wonder sometimes if people who are typed using systems such as MBTI, or the Enneagram, can have their personalities scripted to sokme extent by the type descriptions. I have only recently identified myself with infj, and it fits me like a glove. But had I known that when I was 16, or 18, or 23, it might well have affected my life choices quite profoundly. The career choices I made were not ones you would naturally associate with an introverted intuitive feeler - but I was pretty good at them and enjoyed them. The work I did may well have placed more stress on me than life choices that were a closer fit to the type theory, but those other sorts of choices may well not have challenged me to develop in the rounded sort of way that actually happened. Even now in my late 60s I'm not immune from type sterotyping - for example if I get fed up working through my father's accounts for probate, I find myself thinking aha! that's because Si and Se and Te don't come naturally to me and I get tempted to cut corners. I'd never have done that before I'd read the type manuals and I'm actally pretty good at doing those sort of tasks.
This part is really interesting. I thought about this the other day myself. I can't help but wonder what kind impact it would've had on my life if I'd known this growing up. Who would I be today? Where would I be?
It would've made a huge impact, that's for sure. It would've saved me lots of trouble along the way, probably, but at the same time mistakes are what a person learns from. I think there's a good chance I would've saved myself too much trouble for my own good.
Hey Wolly,
thank you for your post!
I hear you ^^ my family and my fiancé (probably INTP) is all about reason and critical thinking, too.
..and I wonder a bit about the instinctive part.. do you mean by impuls? based on an unconscious feeling? or as a primal deep rooted function?
thank you for your post!
I hear you ^^ my family and my fiancé (probably INTP) is all about reason and critical thinking, too.
..and I wonder a bit about the instinctive part.. do you mean by impuls? based on an unconscious feeling? or as a primal deep rooted function?
My parents were very oppositional and had polar views! when it came to.. everything.
My mother: very warm but logical and always initiating self awareness. Since I remember myself she has often refused me to borrow ideas from someone else. Everything is about 'what I think and how I feel' Then, I would need to elaborate on that and make my argument.
Whereas, my father, would challenge my ideas.
My mother enforced that I accepted myself and others, whereas my father initially had the approach to me that social approval was important - e.g. looking good.
My father told me to give the other cheek whereas my mother would tell me to set boundaries and put my foot down .. because, I am a little sensitive snowflake lol.
My mother has more of a formal approach to people with basis on feeling but my father on intuition.
My mother is more withdrawn whereas my father was very interactive with people, and always wanted to be around people.
My mothers interests were cultural and social whereas my father would soak into anything out of ordinary. The more mysterious the better! - for example: I remember growing up and my father introduced Kabbalah to me. I would tell my mom and she would have no idea of such thing lol.
Now writing this, I wonder if that's the reason I'm enneagram 9. Also, this gave me certain principles when it comes to people. Especially peoples perspectives or an individual take on an event etc - I see how they got to that conclusion, feeling etc. That principle can at times be a bit irritating because I sometimes have a hard time listening to gossip lol! I just start wondering how the other person felt and why why why why and then it starts feeling like injustice.
My mother: very warm but logical and always initiating self awareness. Since I remember myself she has often refused me to borrow ideas from someone else. Everything is about 'what I think and how I feel' Then, I would need to elaborate on that and make my argument.
Whereas, my father, would challenge my ideas.
My mother enforced that I accepted myself and others, whereas my father initially had the approach to me that social approval was important - e.g. looking good.
My father told me to give the other cheek whereas my mother would tell me to set boundaries and put my foot down .. because, I am a little sensitive snowflake lol.
My mother has more of a formal approach to people with basis on feeling but my father on intuition.
My mother is more withdrawn whereas my father was very interactive with people, and always wanted to be around people.
My mothers interests were cultural and social whereas my father would soak into anything out of ordinary. The more mysterious the better! - for example: I remember growing up and my father introduced Kabbalah to me. I would tell my mom and she would have no idea of such thing lol.
Now writing this, I wonder if that's the reason I'm enneagram 9. Also, this gave me certain principles when it comes to people. Especially peoples perspectives or an individual take on an event etc - I see how they got to that conclusion, feeling etc. That principle can at times be a bit irritating because I sometimes have a hard time listening to gossip lol! I just start wondering how the other person felt and why why why why and then it starts feeling like injustice.
Last edited:
hmh... thank you for posting this, even though you have done that a couple times before. I appreciate it!
This makes me (over)think alot..it makes it really easy doubting and reflecting on myself because it is tempting trying to find mistakes within me.
But the overall theme doesn't really echo in me that strongly.. although I wouldn't say I was free of this compensation entirely ^^" I surely had my share.. especially when I witnessed that someone was bullied or there was a big deal of injustice or unfairness going on (not even necessarily towards me)..
When I was a kid and my best friend moved away (
) there was a short time I was left with a bigger group of girls. There was some kind of a leader, she didn't have any siblings and.. I had a naive stupid moment of questioning why we weren't doing what everyone wanted to do but only each day doing what she liked (...that was so alien to me.. coming from a family that talks openly about these things and.. well.. with my best childhood friend there were no problems about doing both or change between what one wants and then the other..you know). So I learned a bit to late about how everyone was actually a bit afraid and tensed of this girl.. and my (not even hostile) direct question didn't quite work for her..I ended up being openly isolated for half a year on that girls attempt (my family moved to another place as well because of career reasons ..so I never thought about it as a much big of a deal..) I know I was hurt badly back then (some of my distrust and uneasy feeling when it comes to groups surely comes from that time) but I also wasn't giving anyone many chances to bully me at least not with the relief of seeing me cry... I don't know. My older brother (he was the overweight, creative, awsome person that was bullied) always used to tell me that I was a pretty tough little girl (although I don't think this is what was going on inside or at home).My story is alot about mediating and building bridges between extremes, opposites and contradictions, taking responsibility and aiming for harmony. I was that kind of girl that knew one person in each group that I enjoyed talking too every now and then.. that my older brothers friends saw and thought "even when she stands alone she doesn't look lonely".. I saw the lonely people and took them to the groups.. I watched them form strong friendships.. and I was most of the time thinking and worrying about the iraq war (that's not really a good topic when other people prefer talking about nailpolish as you can imagine ^^").. I think I use Ni and Fe alot automatically.. blending in for a couple of minutes.. or always finding something to share.. bits and pieces here and there... I remember one conversation with my family that was (as often very much ups and downs, blunt and loving).. whereas my mother and brother (both very extraverted) didn't seem to understand my sense of loneliness - there is that moment when you are aware of how nobody will ever see the color blue like you see. feel something like you do..and so on.. I think at some point my father (stereotypical introvert) who didn't learn and practise talking about anything that much (as my brother and I had the lovely chance to open learn this at home) who opened his mouth and just calmed the whole discussion and my griefing by saying.. "That I was right. That it was just like that." - I will never forget that.
...uff this kind of got out of hand.. ..
I thought about this too... it's easy to give in to the why and how...
I was lucky that my mom loved Édith Piaf so much.. and she told me early in life how the song "Non, Je ne regrette rien" worked for her in life.. how it is more important to look forward than griefing over the past.. (or getting lost in a web of why and hows).. because with the knowlegde of today it is easy to judge yourself in the past.. She said..you can actually be sure that you already did what you thought was best ..that you already did what you were capable of back then..
So... why am I saying this...? ... I guess it's because here in Germany MBTI isn't really a big thing and I am lucky that I found it.. I try to remember that typology is helpful and what the use of MBTI was back then for those two women who invented it.. it helps me shut down doubting voices within me and look for everything that is more suited to me... accepting that (from the energy level definition of introversion) I am an introvert...was one of the hardest things for me..
But...
It's about what I will do with this knowledge.. hopefully making even better decissions...
hopefully some that are finally more attentive towards myself.. and not limiting.
So..in case you wondered about Edith Piaf...here it goes..
I feel dizzy reading this... I know that situation by heart.. (although things might have been distributed differently between my father, mother and brother).
...I wonder if it polished the empathic...sponging function..too..
Edit: and that urge to balance other people out... not only their feelings.. also ideas, perspectives and so on...
Last edited:
Glad you can relate!
Always in an environment where feeling how others feel & why, and the spongy bit could be a result of this. Sounds plausible to me
I can also relate to that, not in the exact same way, but my mom and dad couldn't be more different as persons. That would be virtually impossible. LolGlad you can relate!
Always in an environment where feeling how others feel & why, and the spongy bit could be a result of this. Sounds plausible to me
Hey Wolly,
thank you for your post!
I hear you ^^ my family and my fiancé (probably INTP) is all about reason and critical thinking, too.
..and I wonder a bit about the instinctive part.. do you mean by impuls? based on an unconscious feeling? or as a primal deep rooted function?
Its more primal. Its like the drive to help others when they're suffering. Its something deep and unmoving. Are you an INFJ?
....I see. for me it's often like suffering myself ..it's difficult not to care..
Am I ..that depends who I was with.. sometimes it's like I am a bit of all.. but I think the term is infj chameleon..
Replying to the OP and this is my first post ever! So I hope it goes through. And it's long, naturally.
Suffering from Borderline, I am prone to splitting on all of my relationships as a way of self-protection from being abandoned. All of those symptoms are learned tendencies/thought patterns from my family. I try not to isolate too much, overthink, etc.
I find relief in my own saying, "Free Yourself". Kind of a shorthand, more holistic version of "Education is the cornerstone of success." I love stories of survivors, of people adapting to change in fish-out-water, evolutionary ways. I painted Free Yourself on my wall when I was a teenager, and being able to turn to this thought in times of need is euphoric/hypnotic for me.
Values:
Fight for a more empathetic and kind world. It starts with the journey of self-empathy and radical acceptance of the way things are.
I also grew up in a family and society with backwards values, as most of us do: solutions are from the outside in, you have to act immediately to fix your problem. Simplifying too much, which society does and we do too, really is damaging. Commodifying ourselves in the ways we must present to the world, to be "digestable" to others, flattens us and we degrade ourselves and each other: and it's almost survivalist in 2018 (social media, media streams, etc.)
3 Main Values: I believe science is a way of answering your own questions for yourself, and a way out of limiting beliefs and ideas. Its method has historical and personal impact. I believe words/writings have a power of flying down to your level and coming to you, and you are immersed in another perspective of life. Reading heartfelt, quality stories are healing, and innately demand to be shared. I believe music can be a constant source of newness and ingenuity, causes us to relate in flowering, nuanced ways and with feeling, as does visual art and dancing. Strengthens our relationship with time and much of our external phenomena. It is also healing.
Paradoxes or quotes or analogies:
(Disclaimer: I don't consider myself or any of this to be religious). Believing the stars, sky, the universe loves me/I belong here. I am the universe's small insignificant child, all things that exist in me exist out there, on even greater and smaller levels (molecular make-up, collapsing stars, dual systems, etc.). The world can be cruel and warm, cyclical and curious, loving and invalidating. It's hard to wrap my brain around it. I am constantly wrestling with myself and my values. Right now its patience, gentleness, and kindness, first to myself as if I were a child (which I was), and if I were an animal (which I am).
Wrestling with forgiveness of myself, and tempering ideas of innocence/guilt.
Knowledge is power, And with great power comes great responsibility. Two parts of that to wrestle with....
Breathe in, breathe out; a sense of overall relationship within opposite parts - "kamay", from the Inca. I learned about this concept from when I studied abroad in Peru. Things may not be related; but things are not unrelated. Basically, nothing can exist in a vacuum. We all have context.
Also, just being holistic in approach and letting shades of gray color in idealization. The jig is up on perfectionism! PS - I love being an INFJ!
Suffering from Borderline, I am prone to splitting on all of my relationships as a way of self-protection from being abandoned. All of those symptoms are learned tendencies/thought patterns from my family. I try not to isolate too much, overthink, etc.
I find relief in my own saying, "Free Yourself". Kind of a shorthand, more holistic version of "Education is the cornerstone of success." I love stories of survivors, of people adapting to change in fish-out-water, evolutionary ways. I painted Free Yourself on my wall when I was a teenager, and being able to turn to this thought in times of need is euphoric/hypnotic for me.
Values:
Fight for a more empathetic and kind world. It starts with the journey of self-empathy and radical acceptance of the way things are.
I also grew up in a family and society with backwards values, as most of us do: solutions are from the outside in, you have to act immediately to fix your problem. Simplifying too much, which society does and we do too, really is damaging. Commodifying ourselves in the ways we must present to the world, to be "digestable" to others, flattens us and we degrade ourselves and each other: and it's almost survivalist in 2018 (social media, media streams, etc.)
3 Main Values: I believe science is a way of answering your own questions for yourself, and a way out of limiting beliefs and ideas. Its method has historical and personal impact. I believe words/writings have a power of flying down to your level and coming to you, and you are immersed in another perspective of life. Reading heartfelt, quality stories are healing, and innately demand to be shared. I believe music can be a constant source of newness and ingenuity, causes us to relate in flowering, nuanced ways and with feeling, as does visual art and dancing. Strengthens our relationship with time and much of our external phenomena. It is also healing.
Paradoxes or quotes or analogies:
(Disclaimer: I don't consider myself or any of this to be religious). Believing the stars, sky, the universe loves me/I belong here. I am the universe's small insignificant child, all things that exist in me exist out there, on even greater and smaller levels (molecular make-up, collapsing stars, dual systems, etc.). The world can be cruel and warm, cyclical and curious, loving and invalidating. It's hard to wrap my brain around it. I am constantly wrestling with myself and my values. Right now its patience, gentleness, and kindness, first to myself as if I were a child (which I was), and if I were an animal (which I am).
Wrestling with forgiveness of myself, and tempering ideas of innocence/guilt.
Knowledge is power, And with great power comes great responsibility. Two parts of that to wrestle with....
Breathe in, breathe out; a sense of overall relationship within opposite parts - "kamay", from the Inca. I learned about this concept from when I studied abroad in Peru. Things may not be related; but things are not unrelated. Basically, nothing can exist in a vacuum. We all have context.
Also, just being holistic in approach and letting shades of gray color in idealization. The jig is up on perfectionism! PS - I love being an INFJ!
Oh wow so much energy! ^^
Hello there! Welcome and thank you so much for contributing to this thread (and your first post ever ..here.. ö.ö). Nice to read you!
I always find this immensly interessting: what variety of beliefs the word "success" holds already. It's probably one of those words worthy to look at more closely when it comes to this topic.
Also, I can relate to the stories you outline here *hihi* they probably hold the most positive/optimistic hope and possibility aspects of human nature. (well.. and they are usually very entertaining rich stories, too.)
You really painted this onto walls? That's courageous! xD
Once I wrote onto porcellaine plates with my chosen little sister (very shy and sweet) all the stuff that was bothering us (she had a bad time and needed outlet).. and we smashed those plates in public.. !! (wohoo..!) ... of course... afterwards we would tidy up everything and throw away every little piece and making sure nobody got hurt or bike wheel sliced and such... (my brother and my fiancé still make fun of this "rebellious freeing act" of ours... but it was totally worth it lol)
True
Thank you for sharing ^^ this reminds me so much of "bringing peace to your inner world in order to be able to bring peace to the outside world".I wonder.. I often have the feeling and think that this world is too much in a rush.. so that is isn't necessarily a question of being inactive.. but of taking things slower and more attentive.
Recently, I learned that I personally need to stand up for taking even more time (than I ever permitted myself) to make decissions, think about something and process.. instead of letting myself feel captured in other people's rhythms.. this world r e a c t s too much... in the sense of directly ..immediately..and on impuls..
digestable. just...yes... ..
(I totally agree with the imagery of the absence of being in a vacuum.)
"Kamay".. This is intriguing. How was it when you stumbled across this the first time over there? I'm curious.. Do you mind talking about this? Of course, only if you feel like it..
(Also, What did you study in Peru? I always wanted to see Machu Picchu *_*)
Again: thank you for your post and welcome!
Welcome womanoftheyear. There are plenty of other lovely infjs here as well as people of other types who like the character of the forum. Have you thought of introducing yourself in the Introductions area under the FORUMS tab. I didn't do that properly when I joined 6 months ago, because this is my first ever social media site and I hadn't a clue what I was doing for a few weeks. I'd have met more people and settled in quicker if I'd known what to do.
Yes!
These inspired me to copy a poem that I like off the web
What is this life if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.
No time to stand beneath the boughs
And stare as long as sheep or cows.
No time to see, when woods we pass,
Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
No time to see, in broad daylight,
Streams full of stars, like skies at night.
No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
And watch her feet, how they can dance.
No time to wait till her mouth can
Enrich that smile her eyes began.
A poor life this if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.
William Henry Davies
We have no time to stand and stare.
No time to stand beneath the boughs
And stare as long as sheep or cows.
No time to see, when woods we pass,
Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
No time to see, in broad daylight,
Streams full of stars, like skies at night.
No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
And watch her feet, how they can dance.
No time to wait till her mouth can
Enrich that smile her eyes began.
A poor life this if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.
William Henry Davies
Yes! - the universe feels alive to me too. It's amazing to think that the very atoms we are made of were created in one or more stars that died long ago before the solar system formed - so we are part of the stars. I often think that we aren't insignificant, though we are pretty small - we are the way the Universe is becoming aware of itself and realising it's own physical and scientific beauty. There are at least two astronomy threads you may like to check out.