GracieRuth
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It's a terrible reality that some nations in this world are governed by madmen. So what do we do when a madman might get his hands on Nuks?
Dealing with Achmedinajad
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Objectively? It's fair for Iran to have nukes. From Iran's perspective, "You have nukes. Why can't we have nukes too?" USA, Russia, the UK, France, China, India, Pakistan, and N. Korea all have nukes. The US is blowing a fucking gasket that Iran might be developing nukes, but it's not going to demand that all the other countries get rid of their nukes too. And the US is sure as hell not going set an example and disarm itself. So objectively, it is unreasonable to ask Iran to NOT develop nukes.
From an American perspective? "We run shit, yo. WE decide what's right and wrong, NOT you. Oh you disagree? Well then we're just going to have to fuck you up." I'm not saying that this is right or wrong. People have disagreements; those disagreements are ultimately settled through physical force. That's just how the world has been since the beginning of time.
From an American perspective? "We run shit, yo. WE decide what's right and wrong, NOT you. Oh you disagree? Well then we're just going to have to fuck you up." I'm not saying that this is right or wrong. People have disagreements; those disagreements are ultimately settled through physical force. That's just how the world has been since the beginning of time.
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It's in the best interest of Americans to run things in their own best interest. Fairness would only be to their detriment, strategically speaking.
magister343
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Honestly I think the perception of him as a mad man is overblown. He generally seems rather pragmatic. It is true that he has used some pretty crazy rhetoric on occasion, but only when trying to appeal to the far right within his own country. If he did not make such statements he would probably face political challengers much more extreme than himself, who would be much more dangerous if they won.
Calling that conference for holocaust deniers was also almost certainly just a political stunt. Calling the holocaust a myth is not a denial of its veracity, but rather a more academic use of the term. A myth is properly defined as a tale of deep cultural significance, whether true or not. He has personally stated that he believes that the holocausts did happen, and that it might justify creating a Jewish homeland somewhere (especially Germany or Austria) but not in the Levant. (At times he seems fine with a Jewish state around Tel Aviv, but not Jerusalem.)
I've never been able to find any statements of his that indicate a desire to nuke Israel, or anyone else. (That is, accurately translated statements. The widely quoted "wipe Israel off the map" quote only said that the regime occupying Jerusalem will vanish from the page of history before the end of the world.) He has not personally threatened Israel with violence, but rather repeatedly predicted that it will collapse internally in much the same way that the Soviet Union collapsed. Achmedinajad wants escalate the cold war between Iran and Israel in much the way that Reagan did between thr USA and USSR, in order to encourage Israel to waste its resources and collapse sooner.
(The collapse of the Soviet Union as a model for the collapse of the west looms large in the minds of radical Muslims. Osama bin Laden also stated that he intended to goad the US into overextending ourselves until we collapse like the Soviets did.)
If Iran nuked Israel, they would be doing serious damage to the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs whose cause they like to pretend to champion. They may not actually care for them all that much, but they would hate to loose the propaganda tool. Nuking the holy city of Jerusalem would be unthinkably bad press.
Note that Achmedinnajad is not commander in chief of the Iranian military. The final say in all military and foreign policy decisions belongs to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Khamenai has issued a fatwa declaring in no uncertain terms that Islamic law forbids not only the use but also the production and stockpiling of nuclear weapons.
(Achmedinnajad's last serious rival, Mousavi, was actually much more pro-nuke than him, and was campaigning to move the military under direct presidential control.)
From what I've read, it seems very unlikely that Iran wishes to actually ever produce nuclear weapons. They do however very much wish to have the capacity to produce nuclear weapons quickly. This is cheaper than maintaining preexisting weapons, does not technically violate their interpretation of Islamic law, and still provides the benefits of a nuclear deterrent. It could also still lure Israel into taking action that expends its resources while still letting them claim innocence and gain more foreign support.
I see much bigger threats likely to come from overreaction that underreaction. The Iranian people generally dislike their government, but they tend to be extremely patriotic and will defend it against external threats. Hardliners on our side only help the hardliners on their side. We ought to be opening up trade in civilian goods and exposing Iranians to the better parts of our culture, not shutting them off. Economic sanctions typically hurt the common man without bothering the leadership at all.
Calling that conference for holocaust deniers was also almost certainly just a political stunt. Calling the holocaust a myth is not a denial of its veracity, but rather a more academic use of the term. A myth is properly defined as a tale of deep cultural significance, whether true or not. He has personally stated that he believes that the holocausts did happen, and that it might justify creating a Jewish homeland somewhere (especially Germany or Austria) but not in the Levant. (At times he seems fine with a Jewish state around Tel Aviv, but not Jerusalem.)
I've never been able to find any statements of his that indicate a desire to nuke Israel, or anyone else. (That is, accurately translated statements. The widely quoted "wipe Israel off the map" quote only said that the regime occupying Jerusalem will vanish from the page of history before the end of the world.) He has not personally threatened Israel with violence, but rather repeatedly predicted that it will collapse internally in much the same way that the Soviet Union collapsed. Achmedinajad wants escalate the cold war between Iran and Israel in much the way that Reagan did between thr USA and USSR, in order to encourage Israel to waste its resources and collapse sooner.
(The collapse of the Soviet Union as a model for the collapse of the west looms large in the minds of radical Muslims. Osama bin Laden also stated that he intended to goad the US into overextending ourselves until we collapse like the Soviets did.)
If Iran nuked Israel, they would be doing serious damage to the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs whose cause they like to pretend to champion. They may not actually care for them all that much, but they would hate to loose the propaganda tool. Nuking the holy city of Jerusalem would be unthinkably bad press.
Note that Achmedinnajad is not commander in chief of the Iranian military. The final say in all military and foreign policy decisions belongs to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Khamenai has issued a fatwa declaring in no uncertain terms that Islamic law forbids not only the use but also the production and stockpiling of nuclear weapons.
(Achmedinnajad's last serious rival, Mousavi, was actually much more pro-nuke than him, and was campaigning to move the military under direct presidential control.)
From what I've read, it seems very unlikely that Iran wishes to actually ever produce nuclear weapons. They do however very much wish to have the capacity to produce nuclear weapons quickly. This is cheaper than maintaining preexisting weapons, does not technically violate their interpretation of Islamic law, and still provides the benefits of a nuclear deterrent. It could also still lure Israel into taking action that expends its resources while still letting them claim innocence and gain more foreign support.
I see much bigger threats likely to come from overreaction that underreaction. The Iranian people generally dislike their government, but they tend to be extremely patriotic and will defend it against external threats. Hardliners on our side only help the hardliners on their side. We ought to be opening up trade in civilian goods and exposing Iranians to the better parts of our culture, not shutting them off. Economic sanctions typically hurt the common man without bothering the leadership at all.
muir
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Iran is sitting on a vast well of oil
The US has aggressively been trying to control the oil in the region for decades now
Looking at it objectively Iran looks pretty stable. It doesn't invade other countries.
The US and Israel however look positively psychotic! They are:
invading and occupying countries
dropping nuclear bombs on people
dropping depleted uranium shells (the raditaion causing cancer and birth defects in babies), white phosphorus, cluster bombs, earthquake bombs on people
doing helicopter and drone missile attacks on several countries whilst flying drones over their own population!
shooting, beating and pepperspraying their own populations when they protest
passing laws allowing their citizens to be locked up indefinately without trial and torturing them
locking people up in guantanomo bay without trial
torturing people while arguing torture is ok
pissing on the dead bodies of afghanis and posting the video on youtube
killing countless civilians in countless countries in countless conflicts
conducting mind control experiments on their own civilians (operation MKULTRA) which include subjecting people to violence and sexual abuse
dropping carcinogenic agent orange spray onto the crops and water supply of vietnamese civilians causing thousands to be borm with deformities
assassinating legitimately elected leaders
funding extremists
smuggling drugs
rigging elections
creating a central banking system which has enslaved large sections of humanity by getting them into unpayable debts without their permission
etc etc etc
I mean i can go on and on about the stuff the US and Israel have been upto since WW2
When you look at it objectively you can only conclude that the leaders of the US are mad men, drunk on power and privalege
Whats to be done about Achmedinajad? We should deal with the mad men running our countries, destroying our economies and changing our laws to rob us of our rights and freedoms and stop attacking other countries. Wean ourselves of oil by pursuing renewable energy options.
The US has aggressively been trying to control the oil in the region for decades now
Looking at it objectively Iran looks pretty stable. It doesn't invade other countries.
The US and Israel however look positively psychotic! They are:
invading and occupying countries
dropping nuclear bombs on people
dropping depleted uranium shells (the raditaion causing cancer and birth defects in babies), white phosphorus, cluster bombs, earthquake bombs on people
doing helicopter and drone missile attacks on several countries whilst flying drones over their own population!
shooting, beating and pepperspraying their own populations when they protest
passing laws allowing their citizens to be locked up indefinately without trial and torturing them
locking people up in guantanomo bay without trial
torturing people while arguing torture is ok
pissing on the dead bodies of afghanis and posting the video on youtube
killing countless civilians in countless countries in countless conflicts
conducting mind control experiments on their own civilians (operation MKULTRA) which include subjecting people to violence and sexual abuse
dropping carcinogenic agent orange spray onto the crops and water supply of vietnamese civilians causing thousands to be borm with deformities
assassinating legitimately elected leaders
funding extremists
smuggling drugs
rigging elections
creating a central banking system which has enslaved large sections of humanity by getting them into unpayable debts without their permission
etc etc etc
I mean i can go on and on about the stuff the US and Israel have been upto since WW2
When you look at it objectively you can only conclude that the leaders of the US are mad men, drunk on power and privalege
Whats to be done about Achmedinajad? We should deal with the mad men running our countries, destroying our economies and changing our laws to rob us of our rights and freedoms and stop attacking other countries. Wean ourselves of oil by pursuing renewable energy options.
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It makes sense that the strongest military power (U.S.) would tell the other nations to behave in a way that is conducive to the U.S. maintaining it's status of military dominance. Telling other countries to get rid of their nukes does seem a bit hypocritcal but I dont think it really is nor would I care because our principles are not based on "save the environment" or "lets be fair and hug it out" but on the principle of "protect U.S. citizens at all costs"* Personally I dont want to give that up, even though I dont want to attack anyone.
I feel like if we just let the Jews go ahead and live in Israel (and let them handle their own business) and if they are the Chosen People then God will save them from whatever comes their way. If God does not save them a: God is judging them and they shouldnt be there, or b: Israel isnt chosen by God and the whole thing is just a story.
One thing I never understood about Jews (and if I may interject some OT into the mix) is that they believe they are Gods chosen people but they are relying on America and other countries for their protection. The difference between their worship of the money of supporting nations and Baal is a small one in my opinion.
*U.S. citizen may be defined broadly depending on what conspiracy theory you want to throw into the mix.
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hush
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By we do you mean the United States? Why do we have the right to interfere? If you'd like to know what "we" historically do when a madman gets his hands on nuclear weapons or weapons in general, it's to support it if it's in our own best interests, or take excessive, deadly action if it isn't. To the US often humans outside the borders are considered a bit less than human, so their casualties aren't weighed as heavily. Thousands upon thousands of Iraqis? "Meh." A few US soldiers? "Those cold-blooded, beastly murderers!" I don't think the US is in any position to judge another nation for their crimes, or to say what others can or cannot do.
You're right, some nations are governed by madmen. I happen to live in one that has a pretty bad track record in this regard, and one that has its hands on over 5,000 known nuclear warheads. I find that a bit more frightening than another nation getting a few, especially if you try to see from their perspective - wouldn't you be a little afraid if there was a powerful nation with thousands of warheads to aim at you, if they decided it was appropriate to do so?
Anyway, my position is no more bloodshed, nor suffering. I don't see almost anyone, especially the United States, stopping this any time soon.
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David Zindell (someone I have a great deal of respect for) has an interesting perspective on nuclear weapons, about how he almost loves the nuclear bomb. Worth a read
http://www.davidzindell.com/Blog.html
http://www.davidzindell.com/Blog.html
GracieRuth
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Your reply assumes all governments are equal, when in reality people are not the same, and governments are not the same. We don't give guns to 5 year olds or paranoid schizophrenics or old people with alzehimers. In the same way, there are some governments in the world that can be trusted with nukes, and other governments that cannot.
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Quotes spliced from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#Accusations_of_anti-Semitism
On December 11, 2006, at the "International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust" in Tehran, Ahmadinejad said: “The Zionist regime will be wiped out soon the same way the Soviet Union was, and humanity will achieve freedom”
On Israel's 60th birthday, Ahmadinejad said:
Those who think they can revive the stinking corpse of the usurping and fake Israeli regime by throwing a birthday party are seriously mistaken. Today the reason for the Zionist regime's existence is questioned, and this regime is on its way to annihilation."
In an address to the United Nations General Assembly on September 23, 2008, Ahmadinejad stated that Zionists are criminals and murderers, are "acquisitive" and “deceitful,” and dominate global finance despite their “minuscule” number.
In a speech broadcast on IRINN on September 18 and 23, 2008, Ahmadinejad stated:
The Zionists are crooks. A small handful of Zionists, with a very intricate organization, have taken over the power centers of the world. According to our estimates, the main cadre of the Zionists consists of 2,000 individuals at most, and they have another 8,000 activists. In addition, they have several informants, who spy and provide them with intelligence information. But because of their control of power centers in the U.S. and Europe, and their control of the financial centers and the news and propaganda agencies, they spread propaganda as if they were the entire world, as if all the peoples supported them, and as if they were the majority ruling the world.
At a Holocaust conference at Sharif University of Technology in Tehran on January 27, 2009, Ahmadinejad stated:
"Today the Zionists dominate many of the world's centers of power, wealth, and media. Unfortunately, they have ensnared many politicians and parties, and they are plundering the wealth and assets of nations in this way, depriving peoples of their freedoms and destroying their cultures and human values by spreading their nexus of corruption."
In an interview with IRINN on January 28, 2009, Ahmadinejad stated:
"An incident known as 9/11 occurred. It is not yet clear who carried it out, who collaborated with them, and who paved the way for them. The event took place, and – like in the case of the Holocaust – they sealed it off, refusing to allow objective research groups to find out the truth. They invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, using 9/11 as a pretext."
On al-Quds Day in September 2010, Ahmadinejad criticized the Palestinian Authority for agreeing to renew direct peace talks with Israel. He called the talks "stillborn" and "doomed to fail," and urged Palestinians to continue armed resistance. Nabil Abu Rudeineh, a spokesman for the PA, responded that Ahmadinejad "does not represent the Iranian people,... is not entitled to talk about Palestine, or the President of Palestine."
In May 2011, after a protest in which 12 Palestinians were killed, Ahmadinejad said on television "... like a cancer cell that spreads through the body, this regime infects any region. It must be removed from the body," according to a report from Agence France Presse
magister343
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"The Zionist regime will be wiped out soon the same way the Soviet Union was." Remember that The Soviet Union was never nuked. The Western powers did not invade or destroy the USSR militarily, but rather drove it to overextend itself until it collapsed from within. That is exactly what I said Achmedinajad wanted to do with Israel. Nothing in those statements is in any way a threat to take direct action against Israel, and certainly nothing implies a desire to destroy the Jewish people.
I never said that Achmedinajad was not a despicable person; pragmatic politicians generally are. This is especially true when they are able to distract significant portions of the electorate from serious economic issues by playing to their prejudices. The important thing to keep in mind is that overreacting to his rhetoric only plays into his hand. The proper approach is to minimize his importance by ignoring him and try prove him wrong by holding ourselves to high enough standards that it becomes harder and harder to malign our character credibly.
I never said that Achmedinajad was not a despicable person; pragmatic politicians generally are. This is especially true when they are able to distract significant portions of the electorate from serious economic issues by playing to their prejudices. The important thing to keep in mind is that overreacting to his rhetoric only plays into his hand. The proper approach is to minimize his importance by ignoring him and try prove him wrong by holding ourselves to high enough standards that it becomes harder and harder to malign our character credibly.
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muir
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He is no more a madman than Bush or Obama... he uses the rhetoric that his followers want to hear. Period. He isn't going to be unhinged enough to develop nukes then try to use them with then entire world watching, and it would be impossible to hide where Irans nukes came form since each nukes fingerprint can be traced back to its orignal mine spot. Having a Nuclear weapon is simply a mark of a technological nation and thats what he is trying to prove, that his country can and will do what it can and want to for itself. Morally the US and Europe have no right to tell him he cannot while we have our own. And the Israelis need to STFU and deal with it.
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Did you mean: Ahmadinejad
I can not help but notice that you misspelled "Ahmadinejad". I find it hard to believe that you do not have the capacity to spell the man's name correctly and that you do this kind of thing deliberately in order to put the Iranian point of view in a position of inferiority. I for one would appreciate it if you would be a little more respectful of the opposition's point of view when you start these threads. Since only a portion of the INFJs forum is visible to the non member internet it smears us all with the brush of intolerance to differing points of view.
I can not help but notice that you misspelled "Ahmadinejad". I find it hard to believe that you do not have the capacity to spell the man's name correctly and that you do this kind of thing deliberately in order to put the Iranian point of view in a position of inferiority. I for one would appreciate it if you would be a little more respectful of the opposition's point of view when you start these threads. Since only a portion of the INFJs forum is visible to the non member internet it smears us all with the brush of intolerance to differing points of view.
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