Conversations with the devoutly religious

[Lerxst]

Is it possible to actually have a normal one?

By devoutly, I mean, the types that spend an entire day in Bible study, name their kids after Biblical figures and just ooze "God" out of every pore of their body. Ever try having a conversation with one of these people? I have to admit, it gets me irritated.

Me - How's the weather?
Them - God blessed us with a beautiful day.

Me - Do you want to...?
Them - If God sees fit to allow me...

Me - What do you think of...?
Them - Well, the Bible says we should...​

Independent thought goes out the window and critical thinking is a foreign concept. It probably gets me more irritated by the fact that the words coming out of their mouth are utterly meaningless. It's like writing a term paper in school that consists of nothing but paraphrases and references to other's works.

I'm not trying to bash religions or the people in them. I grew up in a Catholic family going to Sunday school, but even the priests and nuns I would speak to were rather "normal" people to have conversations with; like they grasped the concept of what it meant to be a human being in a world full of human beings.

The "born again" types in some of the "fringe" (as I call them) religions just seem to act like creepy zombies a lot of time and it gets unnerving for me to be around them. Some of them would say that being that "close to God" at first does that to people. I haven't had the heart to tell them that it's not God that makes my spine crawl.

 

[acd]

I don't think it's possible.
And.. it frustrates and scares me, as well.

 

[randomsomeone]

Yes, I think you are talking about one particular subset of people. There are a great number of devout people who can carry on a normal conversation. In fact, in my circles, that's all I run into...the normal ones.

If you want to, try and let them work through their phrases...after a few minutes it may get more normal. Their perspective can feel rather deliberate and forced...but being God-centric can also be as natural as breathing.

 

[acd]

There is a big difference between the two @randomsomeone
Despite the title of the thread... the content of the OP doesn't seem to say that people with strong spiritual beliefs or the devout are always impossible to converse freely with.

I think you could apply the mindset to any ideology--not just with religion.
People who are fanatical about xyz are...unsettling.

 

[VH]

You can have a conversation with the devoutly religious, but it takes a while to get past the filter and disarm them of their defense mechanisms that keep them clinging to religion for safety.

This is one of the many reasons I teach at conferences on the importance of being real no matter how you are, having a spiritual relationship with God, and not being religious.

 

[James]

I couldn't help but notice this thread. I wouldn't consider myself devout (I don't go to church or have a specific faith) but I would say that at heart I am a deeply religous person. I dont "think" it's part of a defense mechanism and I hope people can talk to me normally and not go through a filter.

For me it's just a sense of something beyond the senses, a deep feeling almost of knowing that there is something much greater than we conceive with just our sensory perceptions.

I'm not out to convert anyone (I have no faith to convert them to) but I do try to live my life according to that instinctive guide. If you have no religious faith perhaps that sounds nuts to you. On balance though in my experience few people have zero spiritual belief as very few have 100% religious faith. I'd agree those that do can seem very scary, but only if they allow that to dictate their actions to do irrational things that may hurt or harm others.

Anyway thats my uninvited ten cents..

 

[VH]

I couldn't help but notice this thread. I wouldn't consider myself devout (I don't go to church or have a specific faith) but I would say that at heart I am a deeply religous person. I dont "think" it's part of a defense mechanism and I hope people can talk to me normally and not go through a filter.

For me it's just a sense of something beyond the senses, a deep feeling almost of knowing that there is something much greater than we conceive with just our sensory perceptions.

I'm not out to convert anyone (I have no faith to convert them to) but I do try to live my life according to that instinctive guide. If you have no religious faith perhaps that sounds nuts to you. On balance though in my experience few people have zero spiritual belief as very few have 100% religious faith. I'd agree those that do can seem very scary, but only if they allow that to dictate their actions to do irrational things that may hurt or harm others.

Anyway thats my uninvited ten cents..

That's spiritual rather than religious, and I greatly admire your perspective.

 

[David54]

as has already been said, it' the fliter that they use to understand the world. .
what annoys me is the use of select bible verses or things that are not in doctrine to justify positions. .my personal favorite has to do with sin. . the placing of sin on the cosmic scale to determine which sins are worse then other sins. .
the other has to do with the ent times. . ok,m if you are a Christian, why do you care abaout the "end times"/ you will be taken up to heaven in the rapture . . .so why the interest int he end times and what will happen. .are you going to be raptured to heaven before it takes place. . then why stockpile food and guns. . .dolesnt make sense to me. .

 

[randomsomeone]

I always find it peculiar when someone uses hyper-religious phrases in a normal conversation and I myself am caught off-guard, because I am religious/spiritual, too!! Ya'd think it'd be somewhat less shocking to me, but it's not. For some of these phrases there is just no natural comeback...I mean "right back at ya!" doesn't seems to work. Generally, there is no ill intent, so I accept it and move on.

Religion is a very complex thing with many layers. Sometimes people get caught in over-symplify things...it's just where they are at the moment. Were a discussion to continue, other facets of thought would no doubt reveal themselves.

 

[magister343]

as has already been said, it' the fliter that they use to understand the world. .
what annoys me is the use of select bible verses or things that are not in doctrine to justify positions. .my personal favorite has to do with sin. . the placing of sin on the cosmic scale to determine which sins are worse then other sins. .
the other has to do with the ent times. . ok,m if you are a Christian, why do you care abaout the "end times"/ you will be taken up to heaven in the rapture . . .so why the interest int he end times and what will happen. .are you going to be raptured to heaven before it takes place. . then why stockpile food and guns. . .dolesnt make sense to me. .

Actually the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture was completely made up by the Puritans ministers Increase and Cottom Mather in the 17th century. The doctrine was not especially popular until the 20th century. It is still a minority position within Christianity, although the types who speak of the end times the most often do tend to be dispensationalists who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. It may also be important to note that there are plenty who believe in a mid-tribulation rapture, believing that Christians will suffer with the rest of us for three and a half years (and for much of that have it worse than others since it would be illegal to buy or sell anything without taking the mark of the beast) before things get so that that God will take them away to spare them the worst of it.


The bible is pretty clear that in the last days everyone who ever died will be part of a bodily Resurrection and that the "rapture" of those still living will not take place before the resurrection of the saints. (The book of Revelation distinguishes between 2 different mass resurrections, one for the saints after the tribulation but before the start of the Millennium and one for everyone just before heaven and earth pass away.) What happens to us between death and judgement day is not made clear. The traditional view is that the immortal soul goes to a temporary abode (heaven or hell) to gain a small foretaste of its final fate (The Lake of Fire or the New Heavens and New Earth), but there is also considerable support for the doctrine that there is no immortal soul or anything to experience in a disembodied form while awaiting judgement day. Also, Greek does not actually have a word signifying eternity (the closest is Aion, an indeterminately long period of time that usually does have an end point), so it is not at all clear that those destined for the Lake of Fire will suffer torment forever rather than being fairly quickly annihilated and experiencing nothing while the saints live on forever (as they remain after death itself is destroyed)

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Superficial over-religiousity is a more of a cultural thing than a true religious thing.

It is possible to have a kind of fun (genuine good-hearted fun) if one delves into other people's unusual cultures.



Goth/gothic culture is normally very repellant to me, but if I meet someone who oozes black lipstick and far-out fashions I will ask them about costumes and the different types of gothic style. These people are actually a hoot - they have developed and immersed themselves in a very complex and meaning-filled 'culture.' It really gives such people great delight to have someone engage them with interest and to ask questions about their "world." I imagine it is the same thing with alien conspiracy and hyper-religiousity cultures.

I would just try and have fun with it, instead of trying to reconcile it with your own culture.

 

[randomsomeone]

There are those around today who use the Bible heavily but understand it's nature, or holistic message, very little. Ironic, isn't it? The people I have known who have studied faith, religion, and scripture a great deal have been some of the wisest, most centered, and most balanced people I have ever known....very easy to talk to, very down to earth, very accepting....of anybody.

In a way this is why I actually like formal religions....there is a more time-tested, holistic, integrated viewpoint that keeps many diverse things in a balance. Now, some of these systems may look horribly complicated from without (rightly so given the nuances), but the framework (when understood and used in a healthy manner) does serve a legitimate purpose. The dogmas are never ends in and of themselves, but they do serve as important markers. Religion (properly done) surely has a very freewheeling, dynamic, personal side, but fanaticism can represent a distorted view that ultimately causes harm somewhere. Religion may be challenging at times, but it should not be harming.

 

[Feelings]

What a wonderful thread. Best I have read in a while.

Religion is a very complex thing with many layers. Sometimes people get caught in over-symplify things...it's just where they are at the moment. Were a discussion to continue, other facets of thought would no doubt reveal themselves.

Just yesterday I was thinking about subtley semi-trolling some religious people, you know, for fun. What I was thinking of doing was reverse-proselyting. Make them think that I am of the same faith, then slowly and manipulatively lead them to challenge and question their own faith. To me, this is manipulating them into thinking more clearly, so it is for a noble and good cause. So yeah, I was that bored...

I think religion is good (though spirituality is probably a better term for it) when people come to it on their own, and not just because they're desperate and need something to cling to. I think it's rare that people have a healthy relationship with religion, or even a good reason for being religious in the first place.

You are so fucking smart, babygirl. So, what is it exactly that these people are clinging to?

On balance though in my experience few people have zero spiritual belief as very few have 100% religious faith.

It really annoys me, though, when people SAY they have 100% religious faith, but they don't really. They just say it defensively because they aren't prepared to have a discussion where their beliefs are challenged, or they feel ashamed of not believing 100%.

You can have a conversation with the devoutly religious, but it takes a while to get past the filter and disarm them of their defense mechanisms that keep them clinging to religion for safety.

This is one of the many reasons I teach at conferences on the importance of being real no matter how you are, having a spiritual relationship with God, and not being religious.

I do not understand this concept of clinging. What are they clinging to exactly, and why (i.e. safety in what sense?). Clinging to a sense of identity, purpose?

 

[Lerxst]

Take 2...

Let me think of a way to clarify that whole "devout" word... hrmmm. Think Homer Simpson vs. Ned Flanders. Both are the same religion and go to the same church on the same day, but one's casual about it and the other is very strict about it.

When I combine this with some of those "other" religious groups (Seventh Day Adventists and Jehova's Witnesses have been the two most common in my life) I've been around that tend to be like this is when communication seems to break down. The people of those faiths who fall under the "Ned Flanders" category are the ones I just can't talk with on any practical level.

I even joined a group once that was heavily into Bible study and prayer every weekend (even spoke in tongues during prayer) but wasn't technically affiliated with any organization and going over to their church was like crossing into a foreign country. Everything about the way they talked, dressed and carried on casual conversations just seemed unnatural.

 

[Feelings]

Take 2...

Let me think of a way to clarify that whole "devout" word... hrmmm. Think Homer Simpson vs. Ned Flanders. Both are the same religion and go to the same church on the same day, but one's casual about it and the other is very strict about it.

When I combine this with some of those "other" religious groups (Seventh Day Adventists and Jehova's Witnesses have been the two most common in my life) I've been around that tend to be like this is when communication seems to break down. The people of those faiths who fall under the "Ned Flanders" category are the ones I just can't talk with on any practical level.

I even joined a group once that was heavily into Bible study and prayer every weekend (even spoke in tongues during prayer) but wasn't technically affiliated with any organization and going over to their church was like crossing into a foreign country. Everything about the way they talked, dressed and carried on casual conversations just seemed unnatural.

The word you are seeking is "overzealous".

 

[Barnabas]

I think the problem may be on you, from my perspective you seem to shut off when people talk in a way that reflects devout faith. The hardest part of conversing with someone who has devout beliefs is listening and understanding them instead of shutting down.

 

[Blind Bandit]

I think the problem may be on you, from my perspective you seem to shut off when people talk in a way that reflects devout faith. The hardest part of conversing with someone who has devout beliefs is listening and understanding them instead of shutting down.

Actually no its not. I don't go around saying how much no god there is in my every day conversations. I doubt most non religious or spiritual people do either.

 

[Barnabas]

Actually no its not. I don't go around saying how much no god there is in my every conversations.I doubt most non religious or spiritual people do either.

Really, so your deeply held beliefs aren't reflected in your everyday life? Are they really deeply held then?

Either way, that is you and your not the majority of people, your not even the majority of atheist people.

 

[Stella]

Even openly religious people annoy me, frankly...

I consider myself some sort of Christian, and I start talking to someone like that and it's just "Dude, I like God too. But really. Shut up. Please."

God didn't make people to obsess over him, in my opinion. We were given brains and the ability to think. For me, it just doesn't feel right when people freak out over religion. I mean, I am very uncomfortable in churches and around openly religious people, partially because of my half-agonistic upbringing, but churches and openly religious people are very uncomfortable overall.

 

[Blind Bandit]

Really, so your deeply held beliefs aren't reflected in your everyday life? Are they really deeply held then?

Either way, that is you and your not the majority of people, your not even the majority of atheist people.

Of course they are. But when talking causally with people with topics that don't relate to my Agnosticism. I don't bring up the lack of god, unless relevant. I find people who bring up god when not relevant to be lacking in worldly experience or true understanding of their belief system.