Confidence is Useless

[jimtaylor]

Ok I have to explain the title before people start flipping out… I was reading this psychology magazine yesterday and inside of it was a rather interesting article on confidence and how useful it actually is. The claims and statements in the article where backed up by a couple of recent studies that found some interesting results in reviewing confidence. I am not here to argue the validity of the data provided or the article itself, I just thought the general argument was interesting even though I originally disagreed with it. The more I read though, the more I realized that some rather valid arguments were made.

In the beginning I have to point out the issue with any type of study like this, even if it is carried out in the most perfect circumstances because they have some inherent risks. These are because studies done about asking someone about their own self image and confidence level are generally flawed. People lie, simple matter of fact truth, even in blind studies. Of course you can get averages and have a general idea but still it will harm the validity of the data set and data sets can be construed in any number of ways to match an argument. I am mentioning this because I love to play devil’s advocate and get people to look at all sides of an argument from an unbiased position. Everybody will have their opinion and I really don’t care to dissuade you, I just thought it was interesting so I thought I would share.

So the basic argument of the article is that confidence really has no impact upon success and achievement in life, in fact it can have the opposite effect. The article cited multiple times a researcher who has studied confidence extensively since the late 60’s. When he started researching confidence he believed it a cure all for everything and by building confidence, the world would become a better place. He thought the best way to raise future generations would be to build their confidence and help them achieve high levels of self admiration or self esteem. This was the beginning of the “me generation” and as we have witnessed, it hasn’t really turned out how they expected.

In fact, from his studies he found that people with low self esteem and low confidence might actually achieve more because of their desire to compensate for that lack of self worth. He also found that all these self help guides and programs designed to build confidence are essentially useless. Force feeding someone confidence can actually have the opposite effect of building confidence. Making people make lists of why they are great and making them force that energy inwards to measure their worth actually makes them further despise themselves. The article stated that a majority of people suffering from low self esteem and low self confidence reported having even lower levels after doing such tasks as writing things about themselves that they love.

They also could not find any correlation between successes in all facets of life, especially the career field. The reason is, as demonstrated by the “me generation”, an abundance of self confidence and self worth can cause extreme narcissism and entitlement. This entitlement based mind set results in individuals less willing to work for anything besides themselves and only to a point that they believe is fair. This is not a great combination for finding success. They also tend to believe that work places should just be happy that they even show up, yet alone on time.

The studies they mentioned showed that the greatest impact upon success is actually self control. The ability to control ones impulses and remain focused, determined. It does not require extreme amounts of confidence to have great self control. Confident people and unconfident people alike can have great self control.

Now I could go on and on about the strengths and weakness about this argument but I will let someone else do that. I will state here though that success is a rather broad term and in certain career fields I would argue that confidence is very key but not true confidence. Fake confidence will work. Like I work in sales and I am pretty decent at it. Sometimes I have to fake confidence in a service that I really don’t know much about and I am pretty good at it. If I went to a client and had no confidence in my abilities and knowledge, I would never make a sell. The truth is though, some of the people I work with have the lowest self esteem in the world but they make a lot of money. They are beautiful, good looking, well mannered, arrogant, self centered, individuals who thrive in the industry despite the lack of self worth. The guy I know who has the most confidence and highest self worth is the part time cleaner. Funny guy.

There is such a thing as too much confidence, too much of an inflated ego, too much believe in ones own ability. There is a point that it just becomes irrational, illogical and as detrimental as the person with low self esteem and confidence.

 

[Sai]

everything has its limits! as you said confidence is good when its based on a type of actual fact, its stupid to think that you are invincible and after you fail feel surprised. I am a confident person but i always understand the risk of failure and accept that there is a chance of it. I think confidence is good when you use it in a brave way, but not if you actually dont know the risk of failure.

 

[jimtaylor]

everything has its limits! as you said confidence is good when its based on a type of actual fact, its stupid to think that you are invincible and after you fail feel surprised. I am a confident person but i always understand the risk of failure and accept that there is a chance of it. I think confidence is good when you use it in a brave way, but not if you actually dont know the risk of failure.

Agreed, good point. In your response is a hint of what he mentioned though; self control. Self control is essentially risk minimization. Someone with self control will minimize the risk of failure by not doing one thing or another to the extreme.

 

[Gaze]

Yep, it's often those with the lowest self esteem who seem to work the hardest or do their best or at least strive to where someone with too much self confidence may approach a task expecting to succeed without wanting to put in the effort or the work. Confidence alone is not always enough. Competence and ability in addition to confidence improves someone's chances at success.

 

[jimtaylor]

Yep, it's often those with the lowest self esteem who seem to work the hardest or do their best or at least strive to where someone with too much self confidence may approach a task expecting to succeed without wanting to put in the effort or the work. Confidence alone is not always enough. Competence and ability in addition to confidence improves someone's chances at success.

I would agree. I just have noticed though is if you read certain things, people almost use confidence as a cure all. In order to get more competent and have greater ability, one has to have greater confidence. Almost like confidence desides someones ability to learn or achieve things. It is rather interesting to look at confidence as not really an important factor in any of that.

Instead, maybe confidence is just the appearance of the knowledge, understanding and ability as it appears to others but really has nothing to do with one's own self worth. :/

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

I don't think confidence is useless, but what confidence really is, is not something you can pull out of your ass in the way people might suggest. "You just need confidence"
Confidence comes from knowing you have a situation handled, and that comes from experience, not your ass.
People who like confidence actually like that you know how to navigate a situation.
If you have confidence, but no way to back it up, you would be delusional.
No one likes the deluded.

 

[barbad0s]

They also could not find any correlation between successes in all facets of life, especially the career field. The reason is, as demonstrated by the “me generation”, an abundance of self confidence and self worth can cause extreme narcissism and entitlement. This entitlement based mind set results in individuals less willing to work for anything besides themselves and only to a point that they believe is fair. This is not a great combination for finding success. They also tend to believe that work places should just be happy that they even show up, yet alone on time.

The studies they mentioned showed that the greatest impact upon success is actually self control. The ability to control ones impulses and remain focused, determined. It does not require extreme amounts of confidence to have great self control. Confident people and unconfident people alike can have great self control.

I thought what they found out here and were actually able to measure was interesting. Makes sense, though.

There is such a thing as too much confidence, too much of an inflated ego, too much believe in ones own ability. There is a point that it just becomes irrational, illogical and as detrimental as the person with low self esteem and confidence.

Good point.

I agree with a lot of what others have said above. It's best to have a balance, and to not let seeing oneself as either too unrealistically capable or undercapable, which both damage one's actual chances of succeding. @Ame I would hesitate to agree that people with lowest self-esteem necessarily work the hardest, because I find low self-esteem can often just discourage people or make them want to give up. I associate low self-esteem with lethargy and self-hate. The energy and good spirits that healthy confidence gives people can certainly give a useful extra boost. On top of that, it's hard to be around people with low self-esteem. If I had to choose between wishing either overly low self-esteem or overly high self-esteem on someone, I'd rather choose overy high for them. Being around arrogant people can be annoying, but at least you know they aren't in pain (assuming they aren't hurting inside). Low self-esteem is hell.

 

[Bird]

I talked about how confident of a person I am in a job interview and was offered
the job.

Let me tell you, using the word confident is not useless, it is quite fruitful. They
must not have read this article.

 

[Korg]

So, basically confidence is not as important of a variable in the equation of success as most people assume. And, actually, low self-esteem may be more important because people are motivated to compensate for it. Got it.

This is only true for some people. Specfically, those who buy into western ideals and fall victim to the inherent control schemes therein.

For everyone else, confidence is essential.

 

[the]

So basically if you are the type of person that is skeptical about the possibility of accomplishing things, confidence would be a good thing. But if you are generally positive on the outlook of accomplishing things, confidence wont be as necessary. Is this what you are trrying to say [MENTION=2710]jimtaylor[/MENTION]?

 

[Quiet]

I dont buy this.

How is success and achievement being defined? And how is confidence and high self esteem being defined?

I think the western world is full of people that lack self confidence and self worth. Thats just a big part of a consumeristic socity that seeks to control people and get them to buy buy buy their self worth. A world of shoulds, haves, have nots, guilt and shame. This is a society where people get paid to encourage insecurity, because our whole damn world ecomony is based on people feeding their insecurities. Theres always something that you can buy that will distract you and stop you from developing any real self confidence and self worth. The sense of entitlement that some people feel comes from ignorance and greed- not confidence and self worth. Having a lot of plastic crap in your life and lording it over others certainly doesnt make one successful . Feeling happy, healthy, and having meaningful relationships and connections makes one successful.

I find that all the people I have met that are arrogant, narcisstic, vain, and have inflated egos are actually very much lacking in self confidence and self worth, and compensating through over exaggeration because they dont know how to achieve real self worth. Like the use of an inferiority or superiority complex. Most of these people have had bad past experiences, abuse, been deprived, had little support or love. And people that are delusional are not healthy, it is not that they just have too much self confidence. Thats overly simplistic and makes no sense

The people Ive met that are truly self confident are humble and graceful, because they have absolutely nothing to prove. All of these people have been happy and successful in life.

Self worth and confidence can not be achieved by having to prove yourself to people. This is not healthy and very much in line with a consumeristic and capitalistic society. I understand that people want to achieve goals to test themselves and prove their ability to themselves. That is healthy, and implies a certain degree of self worth to even try to better yourself. How can one achieve goals if they really believe they are not good enough or incapable?

Self confidence doesnt mean that people are stupid and dont understand their own limits. It means that they believe in and accept themselves, for who they are. This implies that have some degree of self awareness and knowledge on one's strengths and weakness.

Self control is very important. But what does it really mean? To have true healthy self control (not the unhealthy self control of shoulds, or eating disorders) one would need to have a high self worth and confidence in themselves.

 

[jimtaylor]

I talked about how confident of a person I am in a job interview and was offered
the job.

Let me tell you, using the word confident is not useless, it is quite fruitful. They
must not have read this article.

No, agreed. Like I said in my job I would never make a sell if I didn't have confidence but if I had too much confidence I would also never make a sell. If I acted like our services are gods gift to the world, everybody would just think me a fucking lunatic. At first I started reading the article because my first thought was, "this is bs." After reading for a bit though, I thought it made some good points.

 

[Bird]

No, agreed. Like I said in my job I would never make a sell if I didn't have confidence but if I had too much confidence I would also never make a sell. If I acted like our services are gods gift to the world, everybody would just think me a fucking lunatic. At first I started reading the article because my first thought was, "this is bs." After reading for a bit though, I thought it made some good points.

Okay, so what you're trying to say is that confidence is not the problem,
over-confidence is.

 

[jimtaylor]

So, basically confidence is not as important of a variable in the equation of success as most people assume. And, actually, low self-esteem may be more important because people are motivated to compensate for it. Got it.

This is only true for some people. Specfically, those who buy into western ideals and fall victim to the inherent control schemes therein.

For everyone else, confidence is essential.

They key is the use and distinction of words. General confidence in ones abilities and skills is important. Having the skills to be able to succeed and knowing how, when, where to use them are very important. What is not as important, is just high self worth and self confidence. I am not saying this is true but arguing from the view point of the article, essentially you can have confidence in your working abilities, skills, etc... Without actually liking yourself. For example, some models, singers, actors and actresses plus executives of many companies. Have you ever seen how much ego stroking a lot of executives need, how much confirmation of their amazingness they need? They might be brilliant, know there crap more than anybody else but still hate themselves. It's why they go home and drink them selves to sleep while popping sleep pills.

 

[jimtaylor]

Okay, so what you're trying to say is that confidence is not the problem,
over-confidence is.

Yes, to me that is pretty much what I feel is the strongest point of the argument. At first the article tried to say confidence just straight up sucks. I couldn't really defend that even if I tried and then I would have to write massive responses to explain it and it's not worth it.

 

[jimtaylor]

So basically if you are the type of person that is skeptical about the possibility of accomplishing things, confidence would be a good thing. But if you are generally positive on the outlook of accomplishing things, confidence wont be as necessary. Is this what you are trrying to say @jimtaylor ?

I didn't write the article so I am not trying to state really anything. I did my best to paraphrase the article and now argue from the perspective of the article. Pretty much what I said is what I meant. The general theme of the article is that confidence is not the cure all to every problem in people's lives like how people like to believe. Also direct attempts to force feed confidence into individuals can have results opposite of what was desired.

What you are saying though makes sense and could be a valid point. I have no way of stating if you are correct though.

 

[jimtaylor]

I dont buy this.

How is success and achievement being defined? And how is confidence and high self esteem being defined?

I think the western world is full of people that lack self confidence and self worth. Thats just a big part of a consumeristic socity that seeks to control people and get them to buy buy buy their self worth. A world of shoulds, haves, have nots, guilt and shame. This is a society where people get paid to encourage insecurity, because our whole damn world ecomony is based on people feeding their insecurities. Theres always something that you can buy that will distract you and stop you from developing any real self confidence and self worth. The sense of entitlement that some people feel comes from ignorance and greed- not confidence and self worth. Having a lot of plastic crap in your life and lording it over others certainly doesnt make one successful . Feeling happy, healthy, and having meaningful relationships and connections makes one successful.

I find that all the people I have met that are arrogant, narcisstic, vain, and have inflated egos are actually very much lacking in self confidence and self worth, and compensating through over exaggeration because they dont know how to achieve real self worth. Like the use of an inferiority or superiority complex. Most of these people have had bad past experiences, abuse, been deprived, had little support or love. And people that are delusional are not healthy, it is not that they just have too much self confidence. Thats overly simplistic and makes no sense

The people Ive met that are truly self confident are humble and graceful, because they have absolutely nothing to prove. All of these people have been happy and successful in life.

Self worth and confidence can not be achieved by having to prove yourself to people. This is not healthy and very much in line with a consumeristic and capitalistic society. I understand that people want to achieve goals to test themselves and prove their ability to themselves. That is healthy, and implies a certain degree of self worth to even try to better yourself. How can one achieve goals if they really believe they are not good enough or incapable?

Self confidence doesnt mean that people are stupid and dont understand their own limits. It means that they believe in and accept themselves, for who they are. This implies that have some degree of self awareness and knowledge on one's strengths and weakness.

Self control is very important. But what does it really mean? To have true healthy self control (not the unhealthy self control of shoulds, or eating disorders) one would need to have a high self worth and confidence in themselves.

As I stated at the beginning there are flaws in studies like this. There is a reason why psychology is not a hard science and is instead a social science. It is sadly so much of the opinion of the individual and so called "experts" are just people who have trained for years under one school of thought. The measurements of such things are inherently flawed just because it is very difficult to get to a consensus idea of what self worth is and what healthy confidence is. It also depends on where you are geographically. By not being a part of the LDS faith here many people consider me to be lacking the confidence and self worth to be able to find god. This is their opinion just as your opinion is that confidence comes with humility and gracefullness. Not everybody would agree with your statement. it would be arrogance though to assume your idea of confidence is universal and correct.

Is Donald Trump confident? I would think so. Was Julius Ceaser and Alexander the Great confident? Again I would think so. The desire to achieve great things is not always a demonstration of a lack of confidence or self worth. It can be though. As always with a social science, things are not black and white, it is a shade of gray. One mans heaven is another mans hell.

Now I myself am a perfectionist to such a degree that I don't take time to relish in any of my accomplishments so it appears as some false humility. I know without a shadow of a doubt that I can achieve anything I set my mind to because I am too stubborn to give up. I am not looking for the monetary reward or fame, I just want to get the task done, get the answer and move on. For me the ability to accomplish anything isn't hingent upon my self worth. I've been at the bottom of the bottom goes as far self worth goes but it never stopped me from trying to accomplish my goals. For me the reason why is that in my life I've never had a doubt in my mental abilities even as others did but that confidence did not mean I loved myself and that when I looked in the mirror, I was happy with what I saw. Now I have a much more balanced life but still I am a perfectionist. I enjoy the feeling of when I learn something new, gain some new skill, fix some issue, solve some problem and so I pursue it.

I would say look at the "me generation" because they are the kings and queens of self love. The problem is that as studies are being done, people who have an abundance of self confidence and self worth demonstrate higher narcasitic, vain, egotistical tendencies and that praise can be addiciting. Like you said, those who have trauma in their past can need a lot of validation, others need none at all. Those who have also received a plethora of praise for every crap they took don't know how to handle failure and criticism or any type of disagreement where their amazing self is put in doubt. Over praising is just as dangerous as under praising. If a person is raised while being praised for every mediocre accomplishment, they might expect that same type of treatment in real life. This is that entitlement issue that so many people suffer from. They believe they are entitled to things that they are not willing to work for. instead of making their lives they believe they are entitled to everything they want.

There has to be a balance between the two. If someone has had their ego inflated their entire life they are going to hit a harsh reality when they leave home and they will continue to pursue that ego boost to support their image. The same could be said for the opposite. Those who have had abuse and trauma in their lives may pursue the validation they never received and compensate in other areas.

 

[Nixie]

I think that confidence on its own is a great trait to have, but just like people have pointed out, taken to the extreme, it becomes negative. Determination and drive will always be a stronger indicator of success to me though. Confidence isn't necessary to have either one of those traits--but they are componets of self control.

Side Note:
I don't think that it is necessarily overconfidence that becomes the problem but what it breeds--a sense of entitlement. By virtue of just being fabulous you--you deserve such and such. I also saw this curious thing invade the school system when my younger sibs were in school--this idea that "everybody is a winner". The idea that competition was unhealthy and children should be celebrated for all their mini accomplishments. Well, it sounds good. However, in real like, not everybody is a winner. You need to learn to cope with disappointment and part of childhood is having those experiences so you are better prepared as adults. And lastly, toss in this sustained trend of "its not my fault" that we see to abolish, to a certain extent, personal responsibility--and viola! A recipe for disaster in many ways. People who want what they want, when they want it. Who think they deserve it and they don't want to work for it. Plus if they do something wrong to get it, they are convinced it isn't their fault.

 

[soulseeker]

I would agree. I just have noticed though is if you read certain things, people almost use confidence as a cure all. In order to get more competent and have greater ability, one has to have greater confidence. Almost like confidence desides someones ability to learn or achieve things. It is rather interesting to look at confidence as not really an important factor in any of that.

Instead, maybe confidence is just the appearance of the knowledge, understanding and ability as it appears to others but really has nothing to do with one's own self worth. :/

My post and yours are very related ) I was asking about self worth and confidence LOL

I am one of the people who think that confidence is important to achieve things. Even if I would have the self control needed to complete a task, but if I wouldn't have the confidence to start it then I will doubt myself and end up not doing it. It's the same with relationships, if I have a new friend I just know that something will happen then I'll start doubting my self worth blah blah blah then boom bye bye new friend

But I don't see confidence as a cure all. But then again, I am a person with almost no confidence at all and a bit damaged. I guess it depends on the person's situation, environment, etc.. ) Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Korg]

They key is the use and distinction of words.

...or the lack of distinction. Much of the the terminology in this thread is being used interchangeably with muddled definitions to boot - which makes the premise hard to follow. In particular, the word 'confidence' which seems to be getting used where 'love of self' ought to be used. So maybe a better thread title would have been "loving yourself isn't a prerequisite for success."

That said, I think what you're driving is that one need not love themselves to be successful. Thus the reasons why highly skilled people (who are probably confident in their abilities) can become successful materially while becoming bankrupt personally. And, for the most part, I agree. But that's also just common sense.