Compassion for dying convicts

[La Sagna]

This will no doubt be controversial for many, but in my opinion is the true meaning of compassion and kindness:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/04/06/chaplain_dan_haleys_house_of_forgiveness.html

 

[barbad0s]

Only because their meat is too tough and gamey to eat by now

 

[say what]

Kindness shouldn't be reserved just for the good natured. Sometimes it's a lack of kindness that has driven people to be criminals. I think this is a really nice gesture- but I see so many people going there and doing horrible things to the residents. It's like the sex offender list- when addresses get out, people think they're doing good by harassing them or brutalizing them.

 

[Lark]

Kindness shouldn't be reserved just for the good natured. Sometimes it's a lack of kindness that has driven people to be criminals. I think this is a really nice gesture- but I see so many people going there and doing horrible things to the residents. It's like the sex offender list- when addresses get out, people think they're doing good by harassing them or brutalizing them.

I was about to get reactionary about that and then I realised you'd qualified it with "sometimes" which I suppose is fine.

The thing about criminal behaviour or any sort of evil behaviour, because that is what criminality ought to be really or ought to be correlated with, is that while through a myriad of different rationalisations or reasons a good person may seek to understand it or relate to individuals capable of it, ie "hate the sin, not the sinner", "nothing human should be foreign to you", "there but for the grace of God go I" etc. it remains reprehensible and suffering can truly be an individuals just desserts.

Anyone who has not become shut of from their natural human inclinations I believe is going to dislike suffering, whether its because of some broad, abstract sense, simple empathy or just imagining they wouldnt like to experience that themselves, even when its deserved. Although the important thing sometimes is that it is deserved or are natural consequences.

 

[say what]

I was about to get reactionary about that and then I realised you'd qualified it with "sometimes" which I suppose is fine.

The thing about criminal behaviour or any sort of evil behaviour, because that is what criminality ought to be really or ought to be correlated with, is that while through a myriad of different rationalisations or reasons a good person may seek to understand it or relate to individuals capable of it, ie "hate the sin, not the sinner", "nothing human should be foreign to you", "there but for the grace of God go I" etc. it remains reprehensible and suffering can truly be an individuals just desserts.

Anyone who has not become shut of from their natural human inclinations I believe is going to dislike suffering, whether its because of some broad, abstract sense, simple empathy or just imagining they wouldnt like to experience that themselves, even when its deserved. Although the important thing sometimes is that it is deserved or are natural consequences.

Almost half of the women and one tenth of the men in the nation's jails and prisons say they were physically or sexually abused before their imprisonment, according to a report released by the Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics on April 11. A third of the women in state prisons, a quarter in local jails and a fifth of the women in federal prisons said they had been raped before their incarceration.

Women in the nation's prisons and jails reported higher levels of abuse as children than women in the general population. More than a third of female state prison and jail inmates said that they had been abused as children, as did about 14 percent of male inmates. The report noted that in the general population, estimates of physical or sexual abuse as children ranged from 12 to 17 percent for females and from 5 to 8 percent for males.

For prisoners who had spent part of their childhoods in foster care, the rate of abuse was even higher. Forty-four percent of the male prisoners and 87 percent of the female prisoners who had spent the majority of their childhood in foster care or institutions reported abuse. Many of them may have been removed from abusive homes.

The new study draws a strong link between prior abuse and violent crime. Among male inmates in state prisons, 76 percent who were abused and 61 percent not abused had a current or past sentence for a violent offense. Among female offenders, 45 percent of the abused and 29 percent not abused had served a sentence for a violent crime.

A history of substance abuse was also higher among inmates who reported an abusive background. Illegal drug use and regular drinking were more common among abused state prison inmates than among those who said they had not been abused. An estimated 76 percent of the abused men and 80 percent of the abused women had used illegal drugs regularly, compared to 68 percent of the men and 65 percent of the women who had not been abused. Of those state prisoners who had grown up with a parent or guardian who drank heavily or used drugs regularly, 29 percent of the males and 76 percent of the females reported abuse.

http://www.casaforchildren.org/site/c.mtJSJ7MPIsE/b.5525017/k.5115/Justice_Study_Prior_Abuse_Reported_by_Inmates.htm


Recognizing that criminals are also victims themselves isn't diminishing their crimes or offering them a way out of their actions, it's simply showing compassion and understanding of the hardships and horrors they likely went through.

The amount of criminals that are "evil" is significantly lower than the amount of criminals that were once victims themselves.

I believe that

 

[say what]

I was about to get reactionary about that and then I realised you'd qualified it with "sometimes" which I suppose is fine.

The thing about criminal behaviour or any sort of evil behaviour, because that is what criminality ought to be really or ought to be correlated with, is that while through a myriad of different rationalisations or reasons a good person may seek to understand it or relate to individuals capable of it, ie "hate the sin, not the sinner", "nothing human should be foreign to you", "there but for the grace of God go I" etc. it remains reprehensible and suffering can truly be an individuals just desserts.

Anyone who has not become shut of from their natural human inclinations I believe is going to dislike suffering, whether its because of some broad, abstract sense, simple empathy or just imagining they wouldnt like to experience that themselves, even when its deserved. Although the important thing sometimes is that it is deserved or are natural consequences.

Almost half of the women and one tenth of the men in the nation's jails and prisons say they were physically or sexually abused before their imprisonment, according to a report released by the Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics on April 11. A third of the women in state prisons, a quarter in local jails and a fifth of the women in federal prisons said they had been raped before their incarceration.

Women in the nation's prisons and jails reported higher levels of abuse as children than women in the general population. More than a third of female state prison and jail inmates said that they had been abused as children, as did about 14 percent of male inmates. The report noted that in the general population, estimates of physical or sexual abuse as children ranged from 12 to 17 percent for females and from 5 to 8 percent for males.

For prisoners who had spent part of their childhoods in foster care, the rate of abuse was even higher. Forty-four percent of the male prisoners and 87 percent of the female prisoners who had spent the majority of their childhood in foster care or institutions reported abuse. Many of them may have been removed from abusive homes.

The new study draws a strong link between prior abuse and violent crime. Among male inmates in state prisons, 76 percent who were abused and 61 percent not abused had a current or past sentence for a violent offense. Among female offenders, 45 percent of the abused and 29 percent not abused had served a sentence for a violent crime.

A history of substance abuse was also higher among inmates who reported an abusive background. Illegal drug use and regular drinking were more common among abused state prison inmates than among those who said they had not been abused. An estimated 76 percent of the abused men and 80 percent of the abused women had used illegal drugs regularly, compared to 68 percent of the men and 65 percent of the women who had not been abused. Of those state prisoners who had grown up with a parent or guardian who drank heavily or used drugs regularly, 29 percent of the males and 76 percent of the females reported abuse.

http://www.casaforchildren.org/site/c.mtJSJ7MPIsE/b.5525017/k.5115/Justice_Study_Prior_Abuse_Reported_by_Inmates.htm


Recognizing that criminals are also victims themselves isn't diminishing their crimes or offering them a way out of their actions, it's simply showing compassion and understanding of the hardships and horrors they likely went through.

The amount of criminals that are "evil" is significantly lower than the amount of criminals that were once victims themselves.

I believe that environmental factors play a huge part in peoples' actions...while I'm not saying we should forgive the person for their actions, I do believe we must realize that not all the blame for why they're acting the way they are can't be placed on the individual.

 

[Lark]

http://www.casaforchildren.org/site...ice_Study_Prior_Abuse_Reported_by_Inmates.htm


Recognizing that criminals are also victims themselves isn't diminishing their crimes or offering them a way out of their actions, it's simply showing compassion and understanding of the hardships and horrors they likely went through.

The amount of criminals that are "evil" is significantly lower than the amount of criminals that were once victims themselves.

I believe that

I'll just contextualise my comments a little.

I've worked and continue to work with the individuals you are talking about and I have been part of the unconditional positive regard and compassion they are offered in attempts to assist them to recover from their past traumas and victimisation and attempt to reframe their world view to one less likely to result in their pretty much inevitable reoffending being patterned with as serious violence as it may hypothetically be characterised by without an intervention of that kind.

There's more than one case that I've worked with in which individuals who've developed very clear patterns of pro-active aggression as their standard way of relating to others and interacting with others have perceived it as nothing but weakness, sometimes its lead them to become more violent and commit worse offenses than I believe they may otherwise have engaged in precisely because they perceive others or the system which will respond to their behaviour as weak, the consequences for themselves inconsequential.

There are cases I've encountered of individuals who are the self-fufilling prophecy type and engage in a pattern of behaviour benefiting from diversionary work, victim-perpetrator interface meetings, the whole nine yards and when they finally meet with, for want of a better word, an "unforgiving" sentence are totally and utterly shocked by it and respond with an all to late shock and regret, if not for the crime itself, which I would accept is a complex matter psychologically (most individuals are not good at dealing with personal failure, accountability or being called to task, they become defensive, deny responsibility and then rationalise their actions), then for being caught or challenging the courts. Although its not a frequent occurence.

So I'm not speaking in the abstract, not suggesting that you are either but lets be realistic.

I'm not arguing for stiffer or harsher sentencing either or more punitive measures but what I would suggest is that while well meaning and big hearted individuals will want to exemplify compassion etc. it is more often than not going to be one of the clearest cases of "the message sent is not the message received" there is. All of which is less and less likely to add to or amount to the sort of cultural revulsion at the sorts of behaviour branded as criminal which is totally and utterly requisite to fighting crime in the first instance.

 

[sprinkles]

If one wants to give compassion then let them give it.

The malice of this world sure as hell needs a counter balance.

This is one of the reasons I think people hate kindness - it takes away their power to control and effectively be assholes. Free kindness is competition. It means you can no longer just reserve it for the deserving, because they might be able to get it from somebody else, and they will be grateful to that person instead of you.

It makes it harder to use kindness as a social weapon. Also in some cases seeing another person give kindness that you yourself could have given kind of makes one look like and feel like a dick.

 

[sprinkles]

I'll just contextualise my comments a little.

I've worked and continue to work with the individuals you are talking about and I have been part of the unconditional positive regard and compassion they are offered in attempts to assist them to recover from their past traumas and victimisation and attempt to reframe their world view to one less likely to result in their pretty much inevitable reoffending being patterned with as serious violence as it may hypothetically be characterised by without an intervention of that kind.

There's more than one case that I've worked with in which individuals who've developed very clear patterns of pro-active aggression as their standard way of relating to others and interacting with others have perceived it as nothing but weakness, sometimes its lead them to become more violent and commit worse offenses than I believe they may otherwise have engaged in precisely because they perceive others or the system which will respond to their behaviour as weak, the consequences for themselves inconsequential.

There are cases I've encountered of individuals who are the self-fufilling prophecy type and engage in a pattern of behaviour benefiting from diversionary work, victim-perpetrator interface meetings, the whole nine yards and when they finally meet with, for want of a better word, an "unforgiving" sentence are totally and utterly shocked by it and respond with an all to late shock and regret, if not for the crime itself, which I would accept is a complex matter psychologically (most individuals are not good at dealing with personal failure, accountability or being called to task, they become defensive, deny responsibility and then rationalise their actions), then for being caught or challenging the courts. Although its not a frequent occurence.

So I'm not speaking in the abstract, not suggesting that you are either but lets be realistic.

I'm not arguing for stiffer or harsher sentencing either or more punitive measures but what I would suggest is that while well meaning and big hearted individuals will want to exemplify compassion etc. it is more often than not going to be one of the clearest cases of "the message sent is not the message received" there is. All of which is less and less likely to add to or amount to the sort of cultural revulsion at the sorts of behaviour branded as criminal which is totally and utterly requisite to fighting crime in the first instance.

Are you implying that the full punishment should be above the law?

You may not be arguing for harsher sentencing but what you seem to be implying here is that there's a main social component which is not part of the legal sentencing but is part of the system. What difference does the legal sentence make then?

 

[muir]

Prevention is better than cure

Create a fairer society where everyone is literate, numerate and employed and there will be less crime

 

[Lark]

Are you implying that the full punishment should be above the law?

You may not be arguing for harsher sentencing but what you seem to be implying here is that there's a main social component which is not part of the legal sentencing but is part of the system. What difference does the legal sentence make then?

I'm not sure what you're asking to be honest, I'm not implying anything about punishment, what does full punishment mean? How should it be above the law? What does that mean?

I am explicitly saying that the public attitude to crime is principally the revulsion there is for criminal behaviour is crucially important in reducing the incidence of crime.

If a criminal believes that they can deny their victim, deny the impact of their behaviour, excuse, mitigate or rationalise it in any way then they will and it will make it easier for them to continue it.

If they can say that they're really a victim themselves and they are some kind of on going victim of circumstances it may make it easier for them to cope with the fact they got caught, to admit responsibility, to take part in a conference, face to face meeting with someone or something like that without ego defences seeking to off set shame but I dont think its going to make reoffending less likely, which surely is the point.

 

[sprinkles]

I'm not sure what you're asking to be honest, I'm not implying anything about punishment, what does full punishment mean? How should it be above the law? What does that mean?

I am explicitly saying that the public attitude to crime is principally the revulsion there is for criminal behaviour is crucially important in reducing the incidence of crime.

If a criminal believes that they can deny their victim, deny the impact of their behaviour, excuse, mitigate or rationalise it in any way then they will and it will make it easier for them to continue it.

If they can say that they're really a victim themselves and they are some kind of on going victim of circumstances it may make it easier for them to cope with the fact they got caught, to admit responsibility, to take part in a conference, face to face meeting with someone or something like that without ego defences seeking to off set shame but I dont think its going to make reoffending less likely, which surely is the point.

I understand that to a degree.

However I feel that the social stigma is often way more cruel then necessary.

Even my enemy I would not treat in the way criminals are often treated. There are a couple people that I truly despise and want nothing to do with, and would never justify their actions, but I could not be so cruel as to deny them love from another person.

I some times feel quite malicious and that is wrong, but even I would not deny one who is dying the compassion of another. If nobody is willing to give it, then why should one ever right their self? If one can't have a moment of compassion, regardless of what they did but without condoning what they did, then what reason do they have to not hate the world?

What reason do I have to not hate the world?

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=4115]Lark[/MENTION]

Also what do you think about hell? Hmm? What does hell feel like?

"You had your chance and you blew it forever"

Welcome to hell. Enjoy your stay.

 

[Lark]

I understand that to a degree.

However I feel that the social stigma is often way more cruel then necessary.

Even my enemy I would not treat in the way criminals are often treated. There are a couple people that I truly despise and want nothing to do with, and would never justify their actions, but I could not be so cruel as to deny them love from another person.

I some times feel quite malicious and that is wrong, but even I would not deny one who is dying the compassion of another. If nobody is willing to give it, then why should one ever right their self? If one can't have a moment of compassion, regardless of what they did but without condoning what they did, then what reason do they have to not hate the world?

What reason do I have to not hate the world?

It could be that their life is a cautionary tale to others.

 

[Lark]

@Lark

Also what do you think about hell? Hmm? What does hell feel like?

"You had your chance and you blew it forever"

Welcome to hell. Enjoy your stay.

Nawh, the gates to hell are locked from the inside and the residents hold the key.

 

[sprinkles]

It could be that their life is a cautionary tale to others.

So was chopping off the arms of people in Sierra Leone.

 

[Lark]

So was chopping off the arms of people in Sierra Leone.

Do you think that the extreme and emotionally charged analogy helps your point or moves on the discussion?

Have you seen the demotivator that I was referencing?

 

[say what]

I think child soilders are a great example of how life's circumstances can create 'criminals'.

we often forget that criminals were children, innocent children, at one point- and suffered then...and that suffering continues into adulthood and often stunts their cognitive and emotional capacities.

Again- not justifying their actions, but trying to shed light on the fact that bad guys sometimes deserve our compassion..

 

[sprinkles]

Do you think that the extreme and emotionally charged analogy helps your point or moves on the discussion?

Have you seen the demotivator that I was referencing?

Oh, so chopping of somebody's arms is emotionally charged, but chopping off their entire life isn't?

 

[Lark]

Oh, so chopping of somebody's arms is emotionally charged, but chopping off their entire life isn't?

No but introducing it to a discussion is, wouldnt you say?

I dont believe that comparing the decisions of lawful criminal justice regimes to human rights violations in the third world is comparing like with life or that there is any moral equivalence there, although that could be straying off topic.