Baby and bathwater....

Lerxst

Lerxst

Well-known member
MBTI
INFJ
Not sure to post this in here or The Lounge or Entertainment. I was having a discussion with someone and they suggested I pose this question to the forum and see what happens.

I've known probably about a dozen or so "born again" Christians personally. With every one of them, what I can never get is why, after being born again, finding God, etc. they all choose to remove positive entertaining influences from their lives. Music turns into Christian based themes, movies are only those that have a G rating or preach the word of God and so on.

Why are the secular things that provided them with entertainment and satisfaction suddenly "against the rules" as if they're all reading from the same playbook? I understand the value in discovering your spiritual beliefs, but going this route seems like.... throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Meanwhile, many who are believers born into a religion (not casual Sunday worshipers) will still find some fun in those things; not everything has to be Bible based in order for them to appreciate the entertainment value.

I really don't "get" how removing those influences helps strengthen one's own religious convictions, but that might be my own religious beliefs talking (In Buddhism, it's referred to as The Middle Way, but Buddhists also don't have a list of requirements to practice like a lot of Christian faiths do).
 
I think those who find a new faith have this kinda..."infatuation" with it. Those who were raised around religion are usually more moderate because they're not like love sick puppies.
 
I am surprised that you do not see what happens being that the "vices" are the most nagging and persistent of the human attachments. Particularly lustful, non monogamous sex. It is not a question of being morally right or wrong as much as it is a question of binding one to his or her most instinctual base. Often our more animalistic and physical side is represented in much of our current media.

If you want to argue that what occurs is often repression which will inevitably back fire you will get no guff from me. However the tendency in almost all religions is to free one's self of one's bodily addictions in order to embrace a more spiritual realm.
 
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Lerxst said:
Not sure to post this in here or The Lounge or Entertainment. I was having a discussion with someone and they suggested I pose this question to the forum and see what happens.

I've known probably about a dozen or so "born again" Christians personally. With every one of them, what I can never get is why, after being born again, finding God, etc. they all choose to remove positive entertaining influences from their lives. Music turns into Christian based themes, movies are only those that have a G rating or preach the word of God and so on.

Why are the secular things that provided them with entertainment and satisfaction suddenly "against the rules" as if they're all reading from the same playbook? I understand the value in discovering your spiritual beliefs, but going this route seems like.... throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Meanwhile, many who are believers born into a religion (not casual Sunday worshipers) will still find some fun in those things; not everything has to be Bible based in order for them to appreciate the entertainment value.

I really don't "get" how removing those influences helps strengthen one's own religious convictions, but that might be my own religious beliefs talking (In Buddhism, it's referred to as The Middle Way, but Buddhists also don't have a list of requirements to practice like a lot of Christian faiths do).
Click to expand...

short answer:
guilt mongering. control of the flock

kind of like this - oh, you like that? IT'S BAD! NEVER DO IT AGAIN. that gives you pleasure? THAT'S WRONG. PLEASURE IS SIN!
this is my experience with fundamentalist religion, and it's by no means unique.
 
Stu said:
I am surprised that you do not see what happens being that the "vices" are the most nagging and persistent of the human attachments. Particularly lustful, non monogamous sex. It is not a question of being morally right or wrong as much as it is a question of binding one to his or her most instinctual base. Often our more animalistic and physical side is represented in much of our current media.

If you want to argue that what occurs is often repression which will inevitably back fire you will get no guff from me. However the tendency in almost all religions is to free one's self of one's bodily addictions in order to embrace a more spiritual realm.
Click to expand...

Stu touches on it right here.

To get to the heart of your question you really need to go back to the reason they chose to be "born again" in the first place.

These kinds of acts are often an attempt to discard - get rid of - cover over - some aspect of them selves they are unable to accept. Call it denial. Embracing the "new way of life" by surrounding themselves with reminders of their choice gives them a temporary respite from their old Self. If their hatred of their old aspects is intense - then the pendulum of extremity will swing so wide as to compel them to completely deny their old ways.

It could also be a way to honor their new self and the new choices of life they will live. As in any spiritual life there will be icons(statues - people - music - media) to represent new ways of thinking and acting. This helps to break old habitual ways and patterns built into the mind. Just like alcoholics who use the help of their Higher Power and AA to help them break out of addiction. We all know they are encouraged to give up their drinking friends and prior places of sitting around talking and drinking. Or whatever ways they used to use to employ drinking.

The first choice is a denial and unacceptance of their self. If the person is born again under these circumstances the outcome of their objective is highly suspect. They are usually the ones who will negate the old ways and act really offensive.
The second choice will lead to spiritual enlightenment and forgiveness and freedom from their old habitual ways.
 
Why expose your mind to words, actions, or experiences which diminish your faith? That's what some would say. Maybe they feel as if they don't want to compromise their values or beliefs so they avoid things which clash or demean those values or beliefs.
 
I don't really understand this either.

Just because you've found religion, does that mean all of a sudden you've lost your critical perspective as well? I guess there are some pretty nasty songs and such in the mainstream which even as an atheist I would be embarrassed to listen to, but there are also plenty of neutral or even genuinely beautiful and uplifting bands that don't require you to emulate the singer's drug problems.

On the other hand, if they used to listen to nothing but skinhead punk, then yeah, I can kinda see why they would want to distance themselves from that.
 
Lerxst said:
Not sure to post this in here or The Lounge or Entertainment. I was having a discussion with someone and they suggested I pose this question to the forum and see what happens.

I've known probably about a dozen or so "born again" Christians personally. With every one of them, what I can never get is why, after being born again, finding God, etc. they all choose to remove positive entertaining influences from their lives. Music turns into Christian based themes, movies are only those that have a G rating or preach the word of God and so on.

Why are the secular things that provided them with entertainment and satisfaction suddenly "against the rules" as if they're all reading from the same playbook? I understand the value in discovering your spiritual beliefs, but going this route seems like.... throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Meanwhile, many who are believers born into a religion (not casual Sunday worshipers) will still find some fun in those things; not everything has to be Bible based in order for them to appreciate the entertainment value.

I really don't "get" how removing those influences helps strengthen one's own religious convictions, but that might be my own religious beliefs talking (In Buddhism, it's referred to as The Middle Way, but Buddhists also don't have a list of requirements to practice like a lot of Christian faiths do).
Click to expand...

I think it is pretty obvious that most movies and music that fit into this group generally shed a positive light on sexual immorality. Seeing that Christians do not want sexual immorality in their lives, they remove those music and movies as well. Seems pretty logical to me.
 
There's plenty of "happy music" out there though that you just don't hear these people listening to voluntarily. Some of it might even coincide with their normal (pre-God) tastes as well but it suddenly becomes off limits, which is the part I don't get. Right now, off the top of my head, without even giving it any thought, let me think of one artist.... Joe Cocker. Done. Took me 2 seconds and I can't think of a single "angry" song of his, but how many times would you see him on a Christian playlist? (And I'm just using him as a reference, not for any other reason or message)


 
hmm, I don't know. We are really talking in generalities here. I have more secular music than anything on my playlist with a sprinkle of Christian music in there.

I'd much rather find the meaning (or have it revealed to me) I want to find in secular songs and movies than have it bottlefed to me Christian music style.

I think you're describing people who are babies or never grew out of the baby stage of their faith.
 
Leave your hat on seemed sexual to me. But you are right, i can't think of anything angry by him. Perhaps it evokes memories or feeling they don't want.
 
Stu said:
could that be it? (plus his unusual motions while singing could best be describes as a man ej......)
Click to expand...

plus he was a raging alcoholic. that wasn't gonna fit in either
 
JGirl said:
short answer:
guilt mongering. control of the flock

kind of like this - oh, you like that? IT'S BAD! NEVER DO IT AGAIN. that gives you pleasure? THAT'S WRONG. PLEASURE IS SIN!
this is my experience with fundamentalist religion, and it's by no means unique.
Click to expand...

DING DING DING. WIIIIINNER!
 
Lerxst said:
Took me 2 seconds and I can't think of a single "angry" song of his,
Click to expand...

Actually, from what I've seen, most of the growth in Christian music has been in extreme metal.

[video=youtube;_KvphaUYqgM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KvphaUYqgM[/video]

Now, Christian metal's acceptance varies from church to church, but in the mostly evangelical protestant hometown I grew up in, this was the kind of stuff all the pastor's kids were listening to.

I think Stu and Kgal's analyses are accurate, to a degree. However, especially with my generation, I think a lot of it comes as a part of dogma. We also can't ignore the historical aspect. American evangelism has its roots in the "moral majority" social conservative movement of the 80's, which was a reaction against the more youth-oriented and liberal mindset of the 60's and 70's. Thus, it only makes sense that the churches founded in the midst and spirit of this movement would take a similarly reactionary stance against the "heavy" music associated with the more liberal mindset.

Most evangelical churches have now, essentially, made the rejection of secular music part of their dogma. Like Kgal and Stu said, people who are "born again" often feel like their life before Christianity was lacking and they seek to reject it and embrace this new lifestyle. Have you ever met an addict that's just gotten into a 12 Step Program? It's kind of like that. But as for a good deal of people in their early 20's? This was the way they were raised. They were brought up by parents and pastors who have taught them all their lives to fear and reject secular art.
 
CindyLou said:
I think those who find a new faith have this kinda..."infatuation" with it. Those who were raised around religion are usually more moderate because they're not like love sick puppies.
Click to expand...

Kgal said:
Stu touches on it right here.

To get to the heart of your question you really need to go back to the reason they chose to be "born again" in the first place.

These kinds of acts are often an attempt to discard - get rid of - cover over - some aspect of them selves they are unable to accept. Call it denial. Embracing the "new way of life" by surrounding themselves with reminders of their choice gives them a temporary respite from their old Self. If their hatred of their old aspects is intense - then the pendulum of extremity will swing so wide as to compel them to completely deny their old ways.

It could also be a way to honor their new self and the new choices of life they will live. As in any spiritual life there will be icons(statues - people - music - media) to represent new ways of thinking and acting. This helps to break old habitual ways and patterns built into the mind. Just like alcoholics who use the help of their Higher Power and AA to help them break out of addiction. We all know they are encouraged to give up their drinking friends and prior places of sitting around talking and drinking. Or whatever ways they used to use to employ drinking.

The first choice is a denial and unacceptance of their self. If the person is born again under these circumstances the outcome of their objective is highly suspect. They are usually the ones who will negate the old ways and act really offensive.
The second choice will lead to spiritual enlightenment and forgiveness and freedom from their old habitual ways.
Click to expand...

Basically these. Social psychology provides a term for this effect, but I forget the jargon-name, so I will wimply use the most obvious lay term: hazing. Basically for whatever reason, a person becomes convinced that they need to go join that religion over there. So they go to that religion, and the leaders say "you want to join up? that's great! all you have to do is a, b, c, d, ... psi, chi, phi, and omega." Thus the person puts a whole lot of work into getting into this group. Now, the thing is, peopl really don;t like doing more work than is worth the reward, so if someone puts in a crap ton o' work, they're going to believe they REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted the reward (and conversely, if someone's lazy, fail to do what they needed to do to join up, they'll convinve themselves they didn't really want to join that bad anyway). So that they've completed all 51 requirements, some of which were rather difficult, devoting years of their life to this one goal, they are now super duper in love with it, and really want to do enjoy everything that the new group has to offer. This is to the point where, if the conversion process made them devote their whole life to the religion for a period of time, they feel that religion is worth devoting their whole life, and so they do. thus they lose interest in secular things that they enjoyed before.

Just as a note, I can admit that when I convrted to Wicca I put myself into a difficult position by doing so (but not the the point of going through tons and tons of coversion rituals), and to this day listen to wicca themed music primarily because its wicca themed. However, I did not stop listen to secular music (I do, however, generally avoid christian music, the religion I converted out of).
 
Rather peculiar, huh? Your post really caught my attention and you raised some serious questions, but I really am unsure on how to answer them, so I will just ask you a question in return: Why do these people throw away the entertainment that, most likely, influenced them to get born again?

If the entertainment impacted their life, then why wash it away when you can combine the two?

Church services seem to play a big role on these people's lives, but as a consequence they lose what they loved.
 
It seems that to cultivate spirituality/the interior life some withdrawal from mundane/worldly entertainments/distractions is necessary. Much like serious academic study, which requires the same thing.

I think the practice of some "born again-s" is a half-hearted attempt to cultivate the interior life, not by laying aside something of mundane life in a penitential way, but by garishly 'Christianizing' all their former entertainments: Christian rock music, Christian movies/books/jewelry/bumper stickers/clothes/etc. The same goes for Christian morals - so many people seem to think that blaring morals against others is somehow a substitute for Christian love of one's neighbor.

I think of all these things as substitutes for taking religion seriously.
 
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