Any followers of Christ as pissed off at other so called "Christians" as I am? | Page 10 | INFJ Forum

Any followers of Christ as pissed off at other so called "Christians" as I am?

Well considering I didn't believe until I turned 19, I was an atheist before this time, It isn't the fact that I have no choice it is more of the fact that He has proven Himself real to my heart and the core of my entire being. Therefore it is impossible for me to lie to myself and say He doesn't exist when in fact I am more than 100% certain that He does. I just get angry like all humans and run away from him spiritually for awhile.
 
Well considering I didn't believe until I turned 19, I was an atheist before this time, It isn't the fact that I have no choice it is more of the fact that He has proven Himself real to my heart and the core of my entire being. Therefore it is impossible for me to lie to myself and say He doesn't exist when in fact I am more than 100% certain that He does. I just get angry like all humans and run away from him spiritually for awhile.

Well if God proved himself real to you then it would be incongruent or even impossible to choose otherwise wouldn't it?

It would be like saying that you know something is true but you don't believe it. It isn't rationally possible to know something to be true but not believe it to be true.
 
Well if God proved himself real to you then it would be incongruent or even impossible to choose otherwise wouldn't it?

It would be like saying that you know something is true but you don't believe it. It isn't rationally possible to know something to be true but not believe it to be true.

Yes and sometimes it makes me angry that I can't change this, but then I remember how amazing His Love is and I am brought to tears by it.
 
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my thoughts on this matter..
Though they are Christians, they are born as human as everyone else is. The thing with Christians is that I believe we are given so much grace from God, but as the saying goes, 'the more you receive, the more is expected from you.' Those graces and hopes and gifts were meant to be shared not to be kept for ourselves. so the matter at hand... I think that some Christians tend to use these gifts and knowledge of God say... selfishly and in the wrong way. Because they have learned a lot, they think that they know it all.. but it's never that limited--it is so much greater. It is hypocritical, some people still compare themselves to others just to see where they stand. They start to see themselves above others and forget that we are all equals and in need of mercy, "..atleast I didn't do what she did", or "look.. what a bad person". I am aware of these people, and I've always thought about it, and I cannot say that I've never been one of them. I think it's a matter of pride, they are able to call others sinners when they themselves fail to see that they are covered in dirt; I think a really good reflection for them is not comparing themselves to other sinners and determining where they stand, but rather they should compare themselves to Jesus and see how they truly are.
 
Well if God proved himself real to you then it would be incongruent or even impossible to choose otherwise wouldn't it?

It would be like saying that you know something is true but you don't believe it. It isn't rationally possible to know something to be true but not believe it to be true.

We are literally on the verge of mind control. Meaning as humans, we have the ability to effect peoples moral judgments in specific ways by manipulating the brain with machines. "God" being "God"...how would you ever know God was God and not just an advanced human who had figured out how to make you believe they were God?
 
[video=youtube;xIErAz-ZO-I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xIErAz-ZO-I[/video]
 
Sorry but you missed the entire point as to what it means that God views all sins the same [MENTION=731]the[/MENTION] because you are trying to view this from your very limited human understanding. First consider that according to the Bible God's standard is perfection, which it would have to be otherwise He wouldn't be God at all. And in order to maintain that perfection He must administer justice to anyone to commits sin otherwise He would no longer nbe perfect and thus not be God. Now, in context of what [MENTION=7970]Love_Conquers_All[/MENTION] said, to violate that perfection in any way by committing any sin means you are now unworthy to be in His presence and by all rights as the Creator who gets to make the rules because He is the creator, He can also sentence you to death both spiritually and physically because of that one transgression. But, being a merciful God, he defers this punishment everyone deserves and has earned via grace, and even offers and atoning sacrifice for those sins by offering up the only one that can wash those sins away, the blood of His perfect son. And that is the proper context of what [MENTION=7970]Love_Conquers_All[/MENTION] meant. In that context is makes perfect and absolute sense. We are not comparing degrees of sin, for that something to be considered by mankind in order to maintain an orderly and safe society, but with God, His considerations and standards are altogether on a different plane. His standard is perfect, ours is not because we can’t obtain it due to our corrupt very limited nature. So, to make it simple, it only takes one sin to disqualify you from heaven based on the merit system. That one sin is enough to merit both instant physical death and eternal spiritual death which really means an eternity separated from God being tormented in Hell because nobody ever really dies spiritually. The soul lives forever. He doesn’t kill us immediately because of mercy when we sin. And that is what the meaning of love is.
 
Sorry but you missed the entire point as to what it means that God views all sins the same [MENTION=731]the[/MENTION] because you are trying to view this from your very limited human understanding. First consider that according to the Bible God's standard is perfection, which it would have to be otherwise He wouldn't be God at all. And in order to maintain that perfection He must administer justice to anyone to commits sin otherwise He would no longer nbe perfect and thus not be God. Now, in context of what [MENTION=7970]Love_Conquers_All[/MENTION] said, to violate that perfection in any way by committing any sin means you are now unworthy to be in His presence and by all rights as the Creator who gets to make the rules because He is the creator, He can also sentence you to death both spiritually and physically because of that one transgression. But, being a merciful God, he defers this punishment everyone deserves and has earned via grace, and even offers and atoning sacrifice for those sins by offering up the only one that can wash those sins away, the blood of His perfect son. And that is the proper context of what [MENTION=7970]Love_Conquers_All[/MENTION] meant. In that context is makes perfect and absolute sense. We are not comparing degrees of sin, for that something to be considered by mankind in order to maintain an orderly and safe society, but with God, His considerations and standards are altogether on a different plane. His standard is perfect, ours is not because we can’t obtain it due to our corrupt very limited nature. So, to make it simple, it only takes one sin to disqualify you from heaven based on the merit system. That one sin is enough to merit both instant physical death and eternal spiritual death which really means an eternity separated from God being tormented in Hell because nobody ever really dies spiritually. The soul lives forever. He doesn’t kill us immediately because of mercy when we sin. And that is what the meaning of love is.

Only in your limited human understanding would you think that god has to be perfect. (With perfection defined as such by other humans operating under a limited human perspective, no less)
 
I would love to see the data that say we are virtually on the verge of mind control not seeing any evidence to support this anywhere, including this post. Be that as it may, one of the biggest problems is that you are speaking with the assumption that a soul does not exist, that we are just meat computers which most scientists, philosophers, and psychologists disagree with. How would you ever know that what you believe isn’t just because some human told you it was so? I ask this because it actually takes more faith to not believe in God than it does to believe in God. Jesus was a real historical figure and his miracles were witnessed by hundreds of people and verified through the same process or proof that historians use for any other means of claiming some historical event occurred. Is that absolute proof, no! But it is more proof than you have that it didn’t occur and more proof to substantiate what they believe than what you have to support what you believe which means what you believe takes the blindest of all faiths. And more proof than anyone else has for any other of these religions they believe in that the video below tries to act as if they are all on the same plane. It does so because the author wishes to overlook a preponderance pf the evidence and historical evidence that exists and place it in the myth area to paint an inaccurate picture to make it fit his or her paradigm. I have examined these things and they are easy to see through if you have a mind trained to spot obvious biases and clever sounding rhetoric. Believe as you wish, I don't care if you believe of not. But don't try to act superior because you don't. I was a Biology major in college and studied Earth Science as well and believe me, nothing in Science does a thing to point away from God.
 
No, based on the Bible which is considered the word of God both inspired and breathed no less. As anyone can see, you are the only one in this conversation that claims humans are the only source of all knowledge and information. I am not...hahaha! Prove to me otherwise.
 
No, based on the Bible which is considered the word of God both inspired and breathed no less. As anyone can see, you are the only one in this conversation that claims humans are the only source of all knowledge and information. I am not...hahaha! Prove to me otherwise.
I didn't make that claim, but since I'm the (accused) minority I must be wrong! Great logic on your part.


But perhaps this isn't about me and you just don't know how to quote people.
 
And...your response is a total red herring because it ignores everything else the reply was about which is what atheists specialize in. You just can't hold up under scrutiny. What does that mean, it means you are irrational and prideful and because I proved your thoughts were off you are offended and your pride is hurt so instead of looking at it from a logical point of view and saying, "Okay, I get it", you try to turn the attention somewhere else. It doesn't work.
 
Answers to positions held by atheists
by Matt Slick

There is no God.
This is not a logical position to hold, since to know there is no God means the person would have to know all things to know there is no God. Since he cannot know all things (if he did he would be God), then he cannot logically say there is no God.
I believe there is no God.
To say "I believe there is no God" is a conscious choice. Then, on what do you base your choice: evidence, logic, faith, or a combination of the three?
If evidence, then what positive evidence is there that disproves God's existence?
There can be no such evidence, since evidence is physical in nature (evidence is an effect and/or result of something in reality). How could evidence disprove the existence of God who is, by definition, the creator of reality and separate from it?
(I am defending the Christian God as revealed in the Bible).
Testimony is admissible in court as evidence, but no one can rightly testify that God does not exist.
If logic, then what logical proof do you have that negates God's existence?
At best, logic can only disprove theistic proofs. Disproving theistic proofs does not mean there is no God. It only means that the proofs presented thus far are insufficient.
Logic can be used to disprove theistic evidences that are presented. Negating such proofs is not a refutation of all possible proofs, since no one can know or present all possible proofs of God's existence. Therefore, negation of proofs does not disprove God's existence.
If there were a logical argument that proved God did not exist, it has not yet been made known. If it were known then it would be in use by atheists. But since no proof of God's non-existence has been successfully defended by atheists, we can conclude that thus far there are no logical proofs for God's non-existence.
If faith alone, then the position is not held by logic or evidence and is an arbitrary position.
If by a combination of evidence, logic, and/or faith, then according to the above analysis, neither is sufficient to validate atheism. A combination of insufficient means does not validate atheism.
For someone to believe there is no God is to hold that belief by faith, since there is no evidence that positively supports atheism and there are no logical proofs that God does not exist. It is, after all, virtually impossible to prove a negative.
There is no evidence for God.
This is not a logical position to hold, since to know there is no evidence for God's existence necessitates that the person knows all possible evidences for God's existence. Since he cannot do this (if he did he would be God), then he cannot logically say there is no evidence for God.
I have not seen sufficient evidence for God's existence.
To say you haven't seen sufficient evidence for God's existence is a more intellectually honest position, but it is really a form of agnosticism which maintains that God is not known or knowable, while admitting the possibility of God's existence.
If a person has not seen sufficient evidence for God, then it means he has not yet seen all evidence, and there might be sufficient evidence. This would mean that God may indeed exist, so the person is really an agnostic concerning God, which makes his atheist position inconsistent with his statement.
I lack belief in God.
To lack belief in God appears to be a defensive position since the assertive atheist positions are wrought with logical problems (shown above). If the atheist says he "lacks belief" in God, then it appears his goal is to maintain a position that is unattackable since then he has no position to attack.
The problem is that "lacking belief" in God is an intellectual position made by a choice to "lack belief." Therefore, it is a position since it is the result of a choice. Any position held must have reasons, or it is not a position. It would be nothing. The atheist who asserts that he lacks belief is asserting a position of lack of belief.
My cat lacks belief in God, as does my computer. Are they also atheists? Therefore, simply lacking belief is not a sufficient statement since it can include animals and inanimate objects.
If you say that "lacking belief" refers only to yourself as a human being, then see point A.
I don't believe in God.
Is this a choice you have made? If so, why? What made you not believe in God?
Is there an intelligent reason why you do not believe in God? Can you please tell me what it is?
Naturalism is true; therefore, there is no need for God.
Naturalism is the belief that all phenomena can be explained in terms of natural causes and laws. If all things were explainable through natural laws, it does not mean that God does not exist since God is, by definition, outside of natural laws since He is the creator of them.
Some might say that if all things can be explained via natural laws, then it means there is no evidence for God.
But, can all things be explained via naturalism? No, because naturalism has not explained all phenomena known today, nor can we assert that all things in the future will be explained via naturalism because we do not know all phenomena that can and will occur. Therefore, it is not a fact that naturalism can explain all things. Therefore, God is not negated via naturalism.
 
Believe as you wish, it does not bother me if you do not believe in God, but do yourself a favor and keep your hatred of God and those that do believe in Him to yourself because you don't have leg to stand on and you can't win the debate either. Just accept the fact that some people do and some of them are dumb as rocks and some are much smarter than you or any of your anti-God heroes you look uup to for inspiration. But if you actually pay attention, people like Dawkins and Hitchens have been owned in public debates by people who believe and are much smarter than they are. What does it prove? It simply proves you do not hold a superior position or reason for believing what you believe and that is a fact that isn't disputable. INFJ LEO who doesn'tlike debates, but will devour his opponent if they get silly and not feel good about it after.
 
Only in your limited human understanding would you think that god has to be perfect. (With perfection defined as such by other humans operating under a limited human perspective, no less)
By your answer, degrees of comparation and absolutes would be a illusion.

Perhaps 'perfection' is not something we can analys and understand, its not a concept, but rather a standart of absolute goodness we intuitively understand?
So the question that every philosopher that has ever lived asked himself was this: Where do we know of this standard? From where do we have this idea of perfection, of absolute, of 'the highest' good?
And philosophers such as Aristotle, Leibniz, Toma D'Aquina have argued that this standart of perfection is actually a supreme mind, a creative mind, the Uncaused Cause of all things.
 
Dont you have to be perfect to understand what perfect is? Otherwise you are just listening to someone tell you whats perfect and then making the effort to believe them. So tell me how is it that people can say God is perfect and have any foundation with which to say this?
 
Dont you have to be perfect to understand what perfect is?

Not necessarely.
Its like asking : 'Don't you have to be infinite/wood/rock/unchangeable to understand what infinite/wood/rock/unchangeable is? (just some rondom examples)
Man's greatness lies in his power of thought.
'By space the universe encompasses me and swallows me up like an atom; by thought I comprehend the world.'
These are two quotes of Pascal, the french philosopher and matemathician.

But the argument from perfection that points toward a Supeme being is not even based on understanding or comprehending, but rather by the innate intuition of every man. It says that every man can intuitively know some things that are better than others.
Maybe if you have patience enough, you can read the whole argumentation :)

The Argument from Degrees of Perfection

We notice around us things that vary in certain ways. A shade of color, for example, can be lighter or darker than another, a freshly baked apple pie is hotter than one taken out of the oven hours before; the life of a person who gives and receives love is better than the life of one who does not.

So we arrange some things in terms of more and less. And when we do, we naturally think of them on a scale approaching most and least. For example, we think of the lighter as approaching the brightness of pure white, and the darker as approaching the opacity of pitch black. This means that we think of them at various "distances" from the extremes, and as possessing, in degrees of "more" or "less," what the extremes possess in full measure.

Sometimes it is the literal distance from an extreme that makes all the difference between "more" and "less." For example, things are more or less hot when they are more or less distant from a source of heat. The source communicates to those things the quality of heat they possess in greater or lesser measure. This means that the degree of heat they possess is caused by a source outside of them.

Now when we think of the goodness of things, part of what we mean relates to what they are simply as beings. We believe, for example, that a relatively stable and permanent way of being is better than one that is fleeting and precarious. Why? Because we apprehend at a deep (but not always conscious) level that being is the source and condition of all value; finally and ultimately, being is better than nonbeing. And so we recognize the inherent superiority of all those ways of being that expand possibilities, free us from the constricting confines of matter, and allow us to share in, enrich and be enriched by, the being of other things. In other words, we all recognize that intelligent being is better than unintelligent being; that a being able to give and receive love is better than one that cannot; that our way of being is better, richer and fuller than that of a stone, a flower, an earthworm, an ant, or even a baby seal.

But if these degrees of perfection pertain to being and being is caused in finite creatures, then there must exist a "best," a source and real standard of all the perfections that we recognize belong to us as beings.

This absolutely perfect being -- the "Being of all beings," "the Perfection of all perfections" -- is God.


Objection: The argument assumes a real "better." But aren't all our judgments of comparative value merely subjective?

Reply: The very asking of this question answers it. For the questioner would not have asked it unless he or she thought it really better to do so than not, and really better to find the true answer than not. You can speak subjectivism but you cannot live it.
 
Not necessarely.
Its like asking : 'Don't you have to be infinite/wood/rock/unchangeable to understand what infinite/wood/rock/unchangeable is? (just some rondom examples)
Man's greatness lies in his power of thought.
'By space the universe encompasses me and swallows me up like an atom; by thought I comprehend the world.'
These are two quotes of Pascal, the french philosopher and matemathician.

But the argument from perfection that points toward a Supeme being is not even based on understanding or comprehending, but rather by the innate intuition of every man. It says that every man can intuitively know some things that are better than others.
Maybe if you have patience enough, you can read the whole argumentation :)

The Argument from Degrees of Perfection

We notice around us things that vary in certain ways. A shade of color, for example, can be lighter or darker than another, a freshly baked apple pie is hotter than one taken out of the oven hours before; the life of a person who gives and receives love is better than the life of one who does not.

So we arrange some things in terms of more and less. And when we do, we naturally think of them on a scale approaching most and least. For example, we think of the lighter as approaching the brightness of pure white, and the darker as approaching the opacity of pitch black. This means that we think of them at various "distances" from the extremes, and as possessing, in degrees of "more" or "less," what the extremes possess in full measure.

Sometimes it is the literal distance from an extreme that makes all the difference between "more" and "less." For example, things are more or less hot when they are more or less distant from a source of heat. The source communicates to those things the quality of heat they possess in greater or lesser measure. This means that the degree of heat they possess is caused by a source outside of them.

Now when we think of the goodness of things, part of what we mean relates to what they are simply as beings. We believe, for example, that a relatively stable and permanent way of being is better than one that is fleeting and precarious. Why? Because we apprehend at a deep (but not always conscious) level that being is the source and condition of all value; finally and ultimately, being is better than nonbeing. And so we recognize the inherent superiority of all those ways of being that expand possibilities, free us from the constricting confines of matter, and allow us to share in, enrich and be enriched by, the being of other things. In other words, we all recognize that intelligent being is better than unintelligent being; that a being able to give and receive love is better than one that cannot; that our way of being is better, richer and fuller than that of a stone, a flower, an earthworm, an ant, or even a baby seal.

But if these degrees of perfection pertain to being and being is caused in finite creatures, then there must exist a "best," a source and real standard of all the perfections that we recognize belong to us as beings.

This absolutely perfect being -- the "Being of all beings," "the Perfection of all perfections" -- is God.


Objection: The argument assumes a real "better." But aren't all our judgments of comparative value merely subjective?

Reply: The very asking of this question answers it. For the questioner would not have asked it unless he or she thought it really better to do so than not, and really better to find the true answer than not. You can speak subjectivism but you cannot live it.

I fully understand what you have said here but I dont agree with the conclusion. Fine so we can comprehend perfection and we can comprehend there is perfection even beyond our own ability to understand. Why does this have to equate to a or your God?