An INTJ's observations of INFJs

[SpecialEdition]

At what point do we stop blaming the small percentage of NT's in the world and start blaming every single other type for not taking a more active role in preventing all the things they complain about all the time?

 

[muir]

At what point do we stop blaming the small percentage of NT's in the world and start blaming every single other type for not taking a more active role in preventing all the things they complain about all the time?

Classic argument of the predator: It's the victims fault for letting themself be victimised!

Yeah i've heard that one before

I remember someone trying to spin that line in a debate about capitalism. They said it was the consumers fault for shaping the world the way it is

But that doesn't really take into account things like engineered ignorance or brainwashing or intimidation by the system

It is the excuse used by oppressors down through history: it's your fault we are oppressing you because you are weak

 

[SpecialEdition]

Classic argument of the predator: It's the victims fault for letting themself be victimised!

Yeah i've heard that one before

I remember someone trying to spin that line in a debate about capitalism. They said it was the consumers fault for shaping the world the way it is

But that doesn't really take into account things like engineered ignorance or brainwashing or intimidation by the system

It is the excuse used by oppressors down through history: it's your fault we are oppressing you because you are weak

Everyone plays their own part. I don't believe anyone is blameless, but I think it is ignorant to point fingers and hope that the people at the top will suddenly realize their wrong doing and change the world for the better. The people who have it best in the world are not usually so keen to give that up even if it means making the world more comfortable and safe for a large number of people.

I am not saying that the victims are at fault but they play their own part in their lives on a smaller scale. Of course we are all born into a world that is already controlled by generations older than us who have held the reigns for a long time. How does a fresh generation handle it? How can the youth that we have in the world now correct a world that was essentially constructed to destroy them? One day those old tyrants will be dead and someone will take up their seat and they'll play the game in a more subtle way. It may look like the times are changing but I am almost certain there will be shadows behind the curtain and smoke and mirrors.

People have a personal obligation to themselves and the people they care about to wake up. They may have been born ignorant and blindfolded but we are all called to the truth. Don't mistake me - I don't disagree with your assessment of the Powers that Be and how things work on that level. I look at things on a personal level. What is it that lead you to wake up, what is it that lead me to wake up? What is it that called all of us who participate on this forum to engage in these conversations and consider them? There are many of us who see the world for what it is... Eventually the others will follow. I don't blame them for how they've been conditioned but if they do not actively seek out a better way then I don't pity them either.

 

[muir]

Everyone plays their own part.

Everyone is stuck in the system and people are at differing degrees of consciousness in terms of how aware they are of the dynamics at play

I don't believe anyone is blameless, but I think it is ignorant to point fingers

Oh i'm doing much much more than that

I'm pointing out how the system works, how its minions work, why they do what they do and what we can do about it

and hope that the people at the top will suddenly realize their wrong doing and change the world for the better.

I don't expect them to change; i'm suggesting to people that we need to be consciously aware of these people and what they are doing so that we can then choose how we are going to engage with that

For example, once you know they are psychopathic eugencists who fund vaccines designed to harm people we then have the choice of whether or not to get the vaccine; of course they want to legislate to take that choice away because they know that people are waking up to the vaccine poison but then we have a choice of how we want to engage with that move too

The people who have it best in the world are not usually so keen to give that up even if it means making the world more comfortable and safe for a large number of people.

That's why we need to take control of the money supply off them

I am not saying that the victims are at fault but they play their own part in their lives on a smaller scale.

People are only as able to act correctly as far as they are in control of their own thought

That is why there is a war over consciousness at the moment

Of course we are all born into a world that is already controlled by generations older than us who have held the reigns for a long time. How does a fresh generation handle it? How can the youth that we have in the world now correct a world that was essentially constructed to destroy them? One day those old tyrants will be dead and someone will take up their seat and they'll play the game in a more subtle way.

They are training the next generation and there will always be people willing though ignorance to serve them and their inter-generational game plan

It may look like the times are changing but I am almost certain there will be shadows behind the curtain and smoke and mirrors.

They are not going to go quietly that's for sure

People have a personal obligation to themselves and the people they care about to wake up. They may have been born ignorant and blindfolded but we are all called to the truth. Don't mistake me - I don't disagree with your assessment of the Powers that Be and how things work on that level. I look at things on a personal level. What is it that lead you to wake up, what is it that lead me to wake up? What is it that called all of us who participate on this forum to engage in these conversations and consider them? There are many of us who see the world for what it is... Eventually the others will follow. I don't blame them for how they've been conditioned but if they do not actively seek out a better way then I don't pity them either.

People don't see reality, they see perceptions of reality

Sometimes when a false perception has been implanted in their mind they need information that undermines that perception so that it will crumble and they can see past it

In the past people believed what they were told by the corporations that cigarettes weren't bad for their health; now everyone knows they are

Mindsets change and the world changes with them

 

[SpecialEdition]

Everyone is stuck in the system and people are at differing degrees of consciousness in terms of how aware they are of the dynamics at play



Oh i'm doing much much more than that

I'm pointing out how the system works, how its minions work, why they do what they do and what we can do about it



I don't expect them to change; i'm suggesting to people that we need to be consciously aware of these people and what they are doing so that we can then choose how we are going to engage with that

For example, once you know they are psychopathic eugencists who fund vaccines designed to harm people we then have the choice of whether or not to get the vaccine; of course they want to legislate to take that choice away because they know that people are waking up to the vaccine poison but then we have a choice of how we want to engage with that move too



That's why we need to take control of the money supply off them



People are only as able to act correctly as far as they are in control of their own thought

That is why there is a war over consciousness at the moment



They are training the next generation and there will always be people willing though ignorance to serve them and their inter-generational game plan




They are not going to go quietly that's for sure



People don't see reality, they see perceptions of reality

Sometimes when a false perception has been implanted in their mind they need information that undermines that perception so that it will crumble and they can see past it

In the past people believed what they were told by the corporations that cigarettes weren't bad for their health; now everyone knows they are

Mindsets change and the world changes with them

We will see.

 

[Dohavior]

I speak with these people all the time; they struggle to learn because they struggle to listen.

I find that all communication should be bidirectional and this problem occurs when there is a reversal and they speak out of turn. That would infer that somewhere there is a logical dyslexia conforming to the notion of a projection. It seems to come about from an overflow of expectations. The process is similar to those exhibiting compulsive gambling.

they struggle to listen because they think they should talk when they should listen. they do this because they think they know more than they do.

Yes as if it is all scripted from some deep subconscious anguish.

So they catch themselves in an arrogant loop of left brained stupidity

Exactly like compulsive gambling.

You can predict future events multiple times and be proven right again and again and again and yet still they will not listen because they are too pigheadedly arrogant to listen to anyone else.

That is a confirmational bias?

And yes as Twain says they will always try to drag you down to the level of ad hominum which then pulls the focus away from the issue (probably because they are losing the debate and their pride is more important to them then seeking the truth)

This is what I meant by the reach of empathy, they only see what is directly in front of them. No knowledge or wisdom that would grant empiricism and ideals.

 

[muir]

I find that all communication should be bidirectional and this problem occurs when there is a reversal and they speak out of turn. That would infer that somewhere there is a logical dyslexia conforming to the notion of a projection. It seems to come about from an overflow of expectations. The process is similar to those exhibiting compulsive gambling.


Yes as if it is all scripted from some deep subconscious anguish.


Exactly like compulsive gambling.


That is a confirmational bias?



This is what I meant by the reach of empathy, they only see what is directly in front of them. No knowledge or wisdom that would grant empiricism and ideals.

I'll be honest i have no idea what you are talking about

You are using words from the same language i speak (english) but you're not using them in a way in which they make sense to me

I feel the meaning is almost within grasp but i can't quite understand you

Can you please flesh out each point you are making?

 

[muir]

We will see.

is your attitude: the world is fucked so why not just join in with fucking it?

 

[SpecialEdition]

is your attitude: the world is fucked so why not just join in with fucking it?

Not at all. I am not sure where you are getting that impression.

I think you must think I am an ENTJ by the way you respond to a lot of what I say.

 

[muir]

Not at all. I am not sure where you are getting that impression.

I think you must think I am an ENTJ by the way you respond to a lot of what I say.

You made a statement ''we shall see'' which is when tranlsated into plain english: ''i don't agree with you''

So i'm asking you that if you do not agree with the idea that there will be positive change from an awakening of consciousness then do you believe that things will never improve and if so do you subscribe to the belief that then there is no point even trying to improve things?

I'm asking you if you have a defeatist attitude towards the problem we are identifying in society and if you use that as your rational for supporting the corporations and for example their trade agreements that you and i discussed in another thread?

I told you in that thread that these trade agreements are being used to consolidate corporate power over the people on a global scale and you denied it

So i'm asking you if the reason you continue to support them is because you feel there is no point in even trying to improve the world?

 

[SpecialEdition]

You made a statement ''we shall see'' which is when tranlsated into plain english: ''i don't agree with you''

So i'm asking you that if you do not agree with the idea that there will be positive change from an awakening of consciousness then do you believe that things will never improve and if so do you subscribe to the belief that then there is no point even trying to improve things?

I'm asking you if you have a defeatist attitude towards the problem we are identifying in society and if you use that as your rational for supporting the corporations and for example their trade agreements that you and i discussed in another thread?

I told you in that thread that these trade agreements are being used to consolidate corporate power over the people on a global scale and you denied it

So i'm asking you if the reason you continue to support them is because you feel there is no point in even trying to improve the world?

No. It translates into "we shall see how all of this big game plays out in the end." It doesn't mean agree or disagree. It means we'll all be watching the world unfold and change and evolve as it does. I don't know what that's going to look like in the end any better than you do. Maybe we'll be playing with sticks and stones, or maybe we'll be able to have an era of peace. But I think a lot of change is on the horizon for people, but I just have no idea how it's going to get there. I know the version of the world that I would like to see, and it is a far cry from what it is now and it definitely doesn't involve people sitting behind a desk in the corporate grind.

You are misunderstanding me and assuming that I hold specific perspectives because you think I am an ENTJ which is unfair. You miss a lot in what I say because of your bias.

As for the global trade, I didn't deny anything. I know what trade does. I know what all of the free trade agreements do. I know what their purpose is. I know how it works on an economical level and how it benefits and detracts from the economy. I've been in this for a long time... But I also know that you don't know the more technical aspects of trade so that conversation was only going to go so far to begin with. We can discuss the ideas around it and that's fine, but I think you don't understand what it looks like from inside the industry and how intricate everything is. It's not just about eliminating borders and the free flow of goods. There are so many levels to this kind of stuff it's almost obscene. Now, I find trade boring as fuck and it's not something I really enjoy doing, but I do it for now because I am good at it and it is paying for my bills.

Now, if you have any ideas of how one can support themselves without working full time, I am all ears. But right now my support comes in the sense that I do work and they pay me. I don't go around and telling everyone I know they should go corporate because corporate life is awesome and full of benefits. That's just stupidity. I only support it insofar as I want to support myself financially, so that's what I am doing.

And in regards for the awakening of consciousness, that has been a long ass time coming and I think that a lot more people need to be doing that before change is going to come. I simply do not think that it has to be radical or accute. I think naturally people over time are going to seek their satisfaction elsewhere. I know so many people who are abandoning the regular workforce and are finding other ways to support themselves... More and more people are turning to health and wellness, people are becoming more spiritual and less religious, people are starting to wake up to the idea that working all the time is not satisfying to them on a deeper level. Over time people will simply reject it in favour of a better life and slowly but surely avenues are being built to allow that to happen. I think it's going to be a long while before the shift over is complete and power as we know it fades out, but I think that it's a natural evolution for people to move into a more conscious, awakened direction. You see it popping up everywhere - these spiritual gurus and people who are living these sort of lifestyles that only rely on other people believing that they, too, can get out of this rut of society they're in and move onto something much greater.

You point out a lot of blunt things, but I think that everything is much more subtle and nuanced. I don't get bent out of shape over it. That's not apathy. That's not me sitting back and not caring. That's not me being defeatist. That's me having faith that people are going to wake up in their own time and they'll naturally shift in that direction and they don't need me striking fear into them or shoving in down their throat.

At the SAME time, I also understand the world as it is and the place that it has in our lives. I am simply using it to my advantage until such a time that I can get out of it. I have some things lining up in my life that will allow me to pull away, but it is a process that takes time and patience. The resources are there for me to provide for myself so I am going to do it. That doesn't make me callous or sociopathic because I see it for what it is and use it to my advantage. The intention is not to feed the beast or to do it at the cost of other people's well being. But I have to take care of me too.

So don't misunderstand me based on a few posts I've made. You take a fairly broad perspective of the world, so try to take a broader perspective of people. If we had a face to face conversation you may feel much differently and make different assumptions about me and who I am.

 

[muir]

No. It translates into "we shall see how all of this big game plays out in the end." It doesn't mean agree or disagree. It means we'll all be watching the world unfold and change and evolve as it does. I don't know what that's going to look like in the end any better than you do. Maybe we'll be playing with sticks and stones, or maybe we'll be able to have an era of peace. But I think a lot of change is on the horizon for people, but I just have no idea how it's going to get there. I know the version of the world that I would like to see, and it is a far cry from what it is now and it definitely doesn't involve people sitting behind a desk in the corporate grind.

You are misunderstanding me and assuming that I hold specific perspectives because you think I am an ENTJ which is unfair. You miss a lot in what I say because of your bias.

No i don't think so, i often give your posts a thumbs up when i agree with them

I also don;t think ENTJ's and INTJ's are beyond redemption, i'm just trying to point out what i see as their major blindspot (a heavy leaning to the left brain) and how that can be problematic for society when it is not countered by right brain input

As for the global trade, I didn't deny anything. I know what trade does. I know what all of the free trade agreements do. I know what their purpose is. I know how it works on an economical level and how it benefits and detracts from the economy. I've been in this for a long time... But I also know that you don't know the more technical aspects of trade so that conversation was only going to go so far to begin with. We can discuss the ideas around it and that's fine, but I think you don't understand what it looks like from inside the industry and how intricate everything is. It's not just about eliminating borders and the free flow of goods. There are so many levels to this kind of stuff it's almost obscene. Now, I find trade boring as fuck and it's not something I really enjoy doing, but I do it for now because I am good at it and it is paying for my bills.

That sounds like a denial to me

You're saying to me that you don't think i understand whats going on and i'm saying to you that i don't think you understand what is really going on

The prison camp guards of the nazis said: ''i was just following orders''

But did anyone order you to support international trade agreements that are going to bolster corporate power?

Now, if you have any ideas of how one can support themselves without working full time, I am all ears. But right now my support comes in the sense that I do work and they pay me. I don't go around and telling everyone I know they should go corporate because corporate life is awesome and full of benefits. That's just stupidity. I only support it insofar as I want to support myself financially, so that's what I am doing.

I know people who went to work in the city (banking district) and then retired from it early and went to live in nice cottages in the country all the while saying: ''the corporate life was never really for me''

It makes me want to say to them: ''yeah but you have helped that corporate world to continue haven't you? You've taken their money, done their dirty work and fed the beast.''

Ghandi was right when he said: ''be the change you want to see in the world''

Take a food additive for example. lets say monosodium glutomate which is a neuro toxin. they put that in crisps for example Doritos. Everytime someone buys those crisps their money is a VOTE of confidence for the corporation that makes that product. they are saying through their financial support: ''i want to live in a world and raise my children in a world where food is full of poisons, please manufacture more foods with poisons in them''

When people vote for corrupt political parties they are saying: ''i support your corrupt political system please continue with this charade''

people need to start thinking about what they give power to because everytime they support something by giving money or attention or energy or time or work or a vote to that thing they are ASKING FOR MORE OF THAT THING

Ghandi was basically saying: ''stop drinking the kool aid!!!!!!!!!!!!!''

And in regards for the awakening of consciousness, that has been a long ass time coming and I think that a lot more people need to be doing that before change is going to come. I simply do not think that it has to be radical or accute. I think naturally people over time are going to seek their satisfaction elsewhere. I know so many people who are abandoning the regular workforce and are finding other ways to support themselves... More and more people are turning to health and wellness, people are becoming more spiritual and less religious, people are starting to wake up to the idea that working all the time is not satisfying to them on a deeper level. Over time people will simply reject it in favour of a better life and slowly but surely avenues are being built to allow that to happen. I think it's going to be a long while before the shift over is complete and power as we know it fades out, but I think that it's a natural evolution for people to move into a more conscious, awakened direction. You see it popping up everywhere - these spiritual gurus and people who are living these sort of lifestyles that only rely on other people believing that they, too, can get out of this rut of society they're in and move onto something much greater.

It's happening because people like me are telling people that the kool aid is poisoned!!!!

You point out a lot of blunt things, but I think that everything is much more subtle and nuanced. I don't get bent out of shape over it. That's not apathy. That's not me sitting back and not caring. That's not me being defeatist. That's me having faith that people are going to wake up in their own time and they'll naturally shift in that direction and they don't need me striking fear into them or shoving in down their throat.

Well there is a sense of urgency yes because i am aware of the moves by the corporate system to increase their control

So its easy for you to say: ''everyone else will change the world'' but what about YOU?

At the SAME time, I also understand the world as it is and the place that it has in our lives. I am simply using it to my advantage until such a time that I can get out of it.

You are being part of the problem not part of the solution

I have some things lining up in my life that will allow me to pull away, but it is a process that takes time and patience. The resources are there for me to provide for myself so I am going to do it. That doesn't make me callous or sociopathic because I see it for what it is and use it to my advantage. The intention is not to feed the beast or to do it at the cost of other people's well being. But I have to take care of me too.

That's a false economy because you are helping the corporate machine grow so that it can inflict greater damage that will then rebound on you in countless ways for example through the deterioration of the society around you and a deterioration of the quality of the food, water and air you consume

So don't misunderstand me based on a few posts I've made. You take a fairly broad perspective of the world, so try to take a broader perspective of people. If we had a face to face conversation you may feel much differently and make different assumptions about me and who I am.

I don't missunderstand at all

I understand perfectly well that many people chase the corporate dollar to make themselves wealthy while the world burns

 

[SpecialEdition]

No i don't think so, i often give your posts a thumbs up when i agree with them

I also don;t think ENTJ's and INTJ's are beyond redemption, i'm just trying to point out what i see as their major blindspot (a heavy leaning to the left brain) and how that can be problematic for society when it is not countered by right brain input

I think that makes things a little too black and white.

That sounds like a denial to me

It may sound like it to you because you are blinded by your perspective of me. We see the same issue but from two different perspectives of the spectrum. You see broader more general strokes of the problem, I see the internal more detailed aspects for it. That doesn't mean we disagree or that either of us are wrong. It is simply experience + perspective.

You're saying to me that you don't think i understand whats going on and i'm saying to you that i don't think you understand what is really going on

Wrong.

The prison camp guards of the nazis said: ''i was just following orders''

But did anyone order you to support international trade agreements that are going to bolster corporate power?

I think bringing the Nazi's into the conversation is a bit extreme. Some Nazi's obeyed orders and didn't feel good about it I am sure. Some did and felt great about it. But let's put it this way. I ended up in this industry because I was out of high school and needed a job. I didn't know anything about the trade when I got into it when I was a teenager, I just knew that I had to fill in X, Y and Z blanks. Now, at this time I didn't know much about how the world worked at all but I enjoyed the people I was working with and I enjoyed the people I got to interact on a day to day basis. Years later I wanted a promotion so that I could get off the shift that I was on and I need a pay raise because I had some financial issues stemming from the relationship I'd been in. So I ended up taking some certifications so I could get promoted and I did and then I was able to get out from under the rock I had been under, blah blah blah. Well, around this time I started learning about the corporate world and I started realizing that this wasn't what I wanted to do with my life. I wanted to teach piano, or write books or have a blog or be a journalist. But I had to get out from under the financial thumb I'd been placed under but I didn't want to lose everything by claiming bankruptcy. I had to get my life together and I had to deal with my mental illness. I was told that if there was anything I ever did, it was to show up to work every day, otherwise I might succumb fully to my anxiety and depression and kill myself. KNowing what I knew, I didn't want to go on anti-depressants or any kind of medication, I had to learn to get out of the situation on my own. SO I stayed in this field and in order to be successful at doing that I needed the financial security. Now, I never intended to support the world that I didn't agree with but I had to do what I needed to do at that time. Now I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and how I can get out of it.

That has nothing to do with international trade. It has nothing to do with me supporting the NAFTA our or new Korean agreement, or the superhighway, or the collapse of the currency or anything else that comes along. It just so happens that, by a fluke, I ended up in this field which acted as a comfort zone for me so that I could deal with issues that I was having and it also just so happens that I ended up being good at the job so that I could get promotions and raises.

I know people who went to work in the city (banking district) and then retired from it early and went to live in nice cottages in the country all the while saying: ''the corporate life was never really for me''

It makes me want to say to them: ''yeah but you have helped that corporate world to continue haven't you? You've taken their money, done their dirty work and fed the beast.''

Ghandi was right when he said: ''be the change you want to see in the world''

To me that sounds boring. I know people who make a lot more money than I do and they have to work so damn hard to get there. I don't really agree with that, it doesn't work for me. But that is their personal choice. I would love financial independence but I don't want to have to work 80 hours a week to get it, and I don't want to have to kill myself at a job so that I can maybe retire early and live in a cottage. But that is their choice and what they thought was satisfying to them. I can't tell them to look at it differently or live differently. Maybe they're happy or maybe they are bored as fuck, I don't know. I would like to take a different more free route if I can.

Take a food additive for example. lets say monosodium glutomate which is a neuro toxin. they put that in crisps for example Doritos. Everytime someone buys those crisps their money is a VOTE of confidence for the corporation that makes that product. they are saying through their financial support: ''i want to live in a world and raise my children in a world where food is full of poisons, please manufacture more foods with poisons in them''

Well. I try to avoid eating anything manufactured and packaged. I think the food industry is one of the most corrupt, disgusting things going. You are passionate about the banking and the goverment and all of that, I am passionate about health and wellness. Not eating all of the packaged, poisonous shit really saved my life and I mean that literally. When I stopped eating the poison a lot of my mental illness cleared up. I was able to be healthy for the first time. I was able to see the other side of the coin and now I watch people around me who don't care about what they eat and it makes me so infuriated about the lack of real information and how ignorant people are. This is the battle that *I* choose to fight and be passionate about. This is something that I think you can I can have common ground and an agreement upon. The goverment/politics are complicit in this and I truly believe that they are working to keep people sick, keep them on statins, keep them on anti-depressants and keep them fat and unwell.... No person should be drowning in medication every day when all they have to do is eat whole foods... I could go on forever about this.

When people vote for corrupt political parties they are saying: ''i support your corrupt political system please continue with this charade''

people need to start thinking about what they give power to because everytime they support something by giving money or attention or energy or time or work or a vote to that thing they are ASKING FOR MORE OF THAT THING

Ghandi was basically saying: ''stop drinking the kool aid!!!!!!!!!!!!!''

This is why I've never voted. I don't believe in voting for the lesser of 2 evils. Canada has exceptionally low turn out rates for voting. People are turning away from the mainstream politics. People are losing faith in that system and it's showing.


It's happening because people like me are telling people that the kool aid is poisoned!!!!

Well there is a sense of urgency yes because i am aware of the moves by the corporate system to increase their control

So its easy for you to say: ''everyone else will change the world'' but what about YOU?



You are being part of the problem not part of the solution

You are saying that because I work for a corporation... We are fighting different battles. I focus on health and wellness. It just so happens that I am temporarily working here to set myself up to do what I really want to do which is to teach people to take care of themselves - to achieve wellness on all levels. I don't talk much about that here, so I can understand why you might think I am a corporate drone. I just spend a lot of my time and energy researching diet/exercise/nutrition/spiritual/emotional health. Now I think I understand why you misunderstand me. You think I am apathetic and not fighting for anything at all. It's simply that I am trying to carve a path so that I can fight for a different spoke on the big wheel of fucked upness.


That's a false economy because you are helping the corporate machine grow so that it can inflict greater damage that will then rebound on you in countless ways for example through the deterioration of the society around you and a deterioration of the quality of the food, water and air you consume

I don't missunderstand at all

I understand perfectly well that many people chase the corporate dollar to make themselves wealthy while the world burns

Well if you'd stop lumping me into that category then I'd appreciate it.

I'd still like to know how you make your own ends meet and support yourself. I think everyone could use tips from people who have escaped the system. Unless you are still part of it?

 

[Eventhorizon]

[MENTION=7838]SpecialEdition[/MENTION] I believe you have been sucked into a trap reading through some of these recent posts. Trying dropping the reason and logic you are used to so that you can relate.

 

[SpecialEdition]

[MENTION=7838]SpecialEdition[/MENTION] I believe you have been sucked into a trap reading through some of these recent posts. Trying dropping the reason and logic you are used to so that you can relate.

I don't think I understand what you mean.

 

[muir]

I think that makes things a little too black and white.

I'm just saying to you that the people who exhibit this kind of thinking that i debate with are INTJ's and ENTJ's

Also other posters also recount their experiences with those types. They have a tendency towards the left hemisphere of the brain which is to do with categorisation, logic and seeing things as seperate

It may sound like it to you because you are blinded by your perspective of me. We see the same issue but from two different perspectives of the spectrum. You see broader more general strokes of the problem, I see the internal more detailed aspects for it. That doesn't mean we disagree or that either of us are wrong. It is simply experience + perspective.

Basically you are making a living out of it so you don't want to face the truth about what they are trying to do with the trade agreements

Wrong.


I think bringing the Nazi's into the conversation is a bit extreme. Some Nazi's obeyed orders and didn't feel good about it I am sure. Some did and felt great about it. But let's put it this way. I ended up in this industry because I was out of high school and needed a job. I didn't know anything about the trade when I got into it when I was a teenager, I just knew that I had to fill in X, Y and Z blanks. Now, at this time I didn't know much about how the world worked at all but I enjoyed the people I was working with and I enjoyed the people I got to interact on a day to day basis. Years later I wanted a promotion so that I could get off the shift that I was on and I need a pay raise because I had some financial issues stemming from the relationship I'd been in. So I ended up taking some certifications so I could get promoted and I did and then I was able to get out from under the rock I had been under, blah blah blah. Well, around this time I started learning about the corporate world and I started realizing that this wasn't what I wanted to do with my life. I wanted to teach piano, or write books or have a blog or be a journalist. But I had to get out from under the financial thumb I'd been placed under but I didn't want to lose everything by claiming bankruptcy. I had to get my life together and I had to deal with my mental illness. I was told that if there was anything I ever did, it was to show up to work every day, otherwise I might succumb fully to my anxiety and depression and kill myself. KNowing what I knew, I didn't want to go on anti-depressants or any kind of medication, I had to learn to get out of the situation on my own. SO I stayed in this field and in order to be successful at doing that I needed the financial security. Now, I never intended to support the world that I didn't agree with but I had to do what I needed to do at that time. Now I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and how I can get out of it.

And this is all good insight into why people serve the corporate system and are apathetic towards the problems it causes

However on the plus side we are seeing lots of WHISTLE BLOWERS come forward across many areas who are turning their backs on the corporate system and exposing its rotten core

Ultimately it is only by rejecting their system that we will beat it

That has nothing to do with international trade. It has nothing to do with me supporting the NAFTA our or new Korean agreement, or the superhighway, or the collapse of the currency or anything else that comes along. It just so happens that, by a fluke, I ended up in this field which acted as a comfort zone for me so that I could deal with issues that I was having and it also just so happens that I ended up being good at the job so that I could get promotions and raises.

if you interviewed the man in the grey archontic suit on the death star who has just pushed the button and vapourised the planet of tattoine he would say: ''well it's just a job isn't it. I have to pay the mortgage so i do as i'm told and i don't ask any questions. Also i'm going for a promotion to chief star destroyer which has much better pay so i don't want to rock the boat and besides i'm good at what i do''

To me that sounds boring. I know people who make a lot more money than I do and they have to work so damn hard to get there. I don't really agree with that, it doesn't work for me. But that is their personal choice. I would love financial independence but I don't want to have to work 80 hours a week to get it, and I don't want to have to kill myself at a job so that I can maybe retire early and live in a cottage. But that is their choice and what they thought was satisfying to them. I can't tell them to look at it differently or live differently. Maybe they're happy or maybe they are bored as fuck, I don't know. I would like to take a different more free route if I can.

Well. I try to avoid eating anything manufactured and packaged. I think the food industry is one of the most corrupt, disgusting things going. You are passionate about the banking and the goverment and all of that, I am passionate about health and wellness.

It's all the same people behind those corporations

Not eating all of the packaged, poisonous shit really saved my life and I mean that literally. When I stopped eating the poison a lot of my mental illness cleared up. I was able to be healthy for the first time. I was able to see the other side of the coin and now I watch people around me who don't care about what they eat and it makes me so infuriated about the lack of real information and how ignorant people are. This is the battle that *I* choose to fight and be passionate about. This is something that I think you can I can have common ground and an agreement upon. The goverment/politics are complicit in this and I truly believe that they are working to keep people sick, keep them on statins, keep them on anti-depressants and keep them fat and unwell.... No person should be drowning in medication every day when all they have to do is eat whole foods... I could go on forever about this.

statins are a con

This is why I've never voted. I don't believe in voting for the lesser of 2 evils. Canada has exceptionally low turn out rates for voting. People are turning away from the mainstream politics. People are losing faith in that system and it's showing.

You are saying that because I work for a corporation... We are fighting different battles.

No what i'm saying is that there is a corporate cadre of people who seem to be of certain personality types who work as the administrative class of the corporations and who justify their support of the corporations in a variety of ways

I think of those people on wallstreet who leaned out of the office windows mocking and jeering at the occupy protests and who held up placards joking about how they took peoples homes. What kind of people do that?

I focus on health and wellness. It just so happens that I am temporarily working here to set myself up to do what I really want to do which is to teach people to take care of themselves - to achieve wellness on all levels. I don't talk much about that here, so I can understand why you might think I am a corporate drone. I just spend a lot of my time and energy researching diet/exercise/nutrition/spiritual/emotional health. Now I think I understand why you misunderstand me. You think I am apathetic and not fighting for anything at all. It's simply that I am trying to carve a path so that I can fight for a different spoke on the big wheel of fucked upness.

Well that sounds like the seed of a good idea...something you feel passionate about, where you are pushing back against the system

Well if you'd stop lumping me into that category then I'd appreciate it.

We don't disagree on everything

I made some comments about how i think the corporate machine operates and why people are so apathetical towards it

One of the things i said was that i felt there was an MBTI aspect to that. You then responded to that, but one thing i've found is that no matter what you discuss online you will offend someone

I once spoke out against freemasonry and i got a guy who is a regular poster on this forum (he has posted in this thread) telling me that if i ever go to the US i will be drowned by them because his dad was a grandmaster of freemasonry

I once spoke out against israels aggressive foreign policy and i got a guy from the israeli military threatening to gas and bum rape me

I once spoke out against modern farming methods and their dependence on big agra chemicals and a farmers son chimed in and soon after threatened to punch me

I speak out against vaccines and i get a mother saying that she's not happy with what i;ve said because she's vaccinated her boys (one of which then got the whooping cough even after being vaccinated against it)

The system is so pervasive that it compromises people all over the place; some people then realise how they have been compromised and make changes in their life to live in alignment with their ideals whilst others carry on in denial

But whatever you say online you will offend someone

Now i have a theory that certain MBTI types play a greater role in the corporate system then others. So when i give voice to that theory i then offend those types!!

But i believe that theory to be true

I'd still like to know how you make your own ends meet and support yourself. I think everyone could use tips from people who have escaped the system. Unless you are still part of it?

I had a hard time trying to steer a way through a capitalist system in ways that i felt did not compromise my ideals. I feel i have managed that and i sit here my body aching because i have chosen a hard path to keep me on what i feel to be a track that i can feel ok about

So I know it's hard to navigate through it all....the system wants to compromise everyone

But what i'm saying in this discussion that is about trying to understand why there is so much inertia in society in the face of so many injustices is that i think that lack of empathy is seen as a favourable attribute in corporate recruitment and that lack of empathy is rewarded in our society (i know this is not the apathy thread but our discussion has now bridged the two threads)

This empowers the wrong kind of people while economically disempowering those of conscience and i think it is deliberately done that way

 

[SpecialEdition]

I'm just saying to you that the people who exhibit this kind of thinking that i debate with are INTJ's and ENTJ's

Also other posters also recount their experiences with those types. They have a tendency towards the left hemisphere of the brain which is to do with categorisation, logic and seeing things as seperate



Basically you are making a living out of it so you don't want to face the truth about what they are trying to do with the trade agreements



And this is all good insight into why people serve the corporate system and are apathetic towards the problems it causes

However on the plus side we are seeing lots of WHISTLE BLOWERS come forward across many areas who are turning their backs on the corporate system and exposing its rotten core

Ultimately it is only by rejecting their system that we will beat it



if you interviewed the man in the grey archontic suit on the death star who has just pushed the button and vapourised the planet of tattoine he would say: ''well it's just a job isn't it. I have to pay the mortgage so i do as i'm told and i don't ask any questions. Also i'm going for a promotion to chief star destroyer which has much better pay so i don't want to rock the boat and besides i'm good at what i do''



It's all the same people behind those corporations



statins are a con



No what i'm saying is that there is a corporate cadre of people who seem to be of certain personality types who work as the administrative class of the corporations and who justify their support of the corporations in a variety of ways

I think of those people on wallstreet who leaned out of the office windows mocking and jeering at the occupy protests and who held up placards joking about how they took peoples homes. What kind of people do that?



Well that sounds like the seed of a good idea...something you feel passionate about, where you are pushing back against the system



We don't disagree on everything

I made some comments about how i think the corporate machine operates and why people are so apathetical towards it

One of the things i said was that i felt there was an MBTI aspect to that. You then responded to that, but one thing i've found is that no matter what you discuss online you will offend someone

I once spoke out against freemasonry and i got a guy who is a regular poster on this forum (he has posted in this thread) telling me that if i ever go to the US i will be drowned by them because his dad was a grandmaster of freemasonry

I once spoke out against israels aggressive foreign policy and i got a guy from the israeli military threatening to gas and bum rape me

I once spoke out against modern farming methods and their dependence on big agra chemicals and a farmers son chimed in and soon after threatened to punch me

I speak out against vaccines and i get a mother saying that she's not happy with what i;ve said because she's vaccinated her boys (one of which then got the whooping cough even after being vaccinated against it)

The system is so pervasive that it compromises people all over the place; some people then realise how they have been compromised and make changes in their life to live in alignment with their ideals whilst others carry on in denial

But whatever you say online you will offend someone

Now i have a theory that certain MBTI types play a greater role in the corporate system then others. So when i give voice to that theory i then offend those types!!

But i believe that theory to be true



I had a hard time trying to steer a way through a capitalist system in ways that i felt did not compromise my ideals. I feel i have managed that and i sit here my body aching because i have chosen a hard path to keep me on what i feel to be a track that i can feel ok about

So I know it's hard to navigate through it all....the system wants to compromise everyone

But what i'm saying in this discussion that is about trying to understand why there is so much inertia in society in the face of so many injustices is that i think that lack of empathy is seen as a favourable attribute in corporate recruitment and that lack of empathy is rewarded in our society (i know this is not the apathy thread but our discussion has now bridged the two threads)

This empowers the wrong kind of people while economically disempowering those of conscience and i think it is deliberately done that way

Because this is bleeding through 2 threads I won't address all your points here.

I will say that people who feel they have to threaten others physically, who actively participate in the immediate harm of others or who laugh in the faces of those trying to make change are symptoms of a great societal disease. It may be for some situations that I lack understanding or empathy, but I can see where others cross a line that I would never be willing to. It's never my desire to see another person suffer or to humiliate or abuse them. I might disagree with things people say or how they live, but I'd never want them to endure suffering for it. It may be that for certain people and situations I have a lack of understanding, but I don't focus on those areas. Not out of complete lack of care for the well being for others, but I try to fight for what I know and understand and let others fight for what they know and understand.

I may or may not be an ENTJ, I don't know. I am still learning about who I am and what I'm about and how I operate now that I have come out of my own shadow and am trying to shine my light. Right now I mostly have a lot of cognitive dissonance I am trying to resolve which is why I likely come across as aggressive or lacking compassion on some days while other days I seem to be more open and understanding. I am working on trying to be a better version of myself, whatever my type may be. I just know that I want people to feel good and be happy and healthy and I don't think that comes from instant gratification type things like consuming a bunch of media or food or sugar or buying things.

Change doesn't start with taking down one thing or another but rather slowly chipping away what isn't working to replace it with what is. Humanity has been subject to this kind of system since it's inception I'd imagine so it's hard for me to imagine what the end result will be. Maybe we'll be dead and gone before we see how it turns out. For now, I just hope to lead by example in my life within the context and capacity of my own being. I think sometimes that is the best we can do. At least some of us.

 

[muir]

Because this is bleeding through 2 threads I won't address all your points here.

I will say that people who feel they have to threaten others physically, who actively participate in the immediate harm of others or who laugh in the faces of those trying to make change are symptoms of a great societal disease. It may be for some situations that I lack understanding or empathy, but I can see where others cross a line that I would never be willing to. It's never my desire to see another person suffer or to humiliate or abuse them. I might disagree with things people say or how they live, but I'd never want them to endure suffering for it. It may be that for certain people and situations I have a lack of understanding, but I don't focus on those areas. Not out of complete lack of care for the well being for others, but I try to fight for what I know and understand and let others fight for what they know and understand.

I may or may not be an ENTJ, I don't know. I am still learning about who I am and what I'm about and how I operate now that I have come out of my own shadow and am trying to shine my light. Right now I mostly have a lot of cognitive dissonance I am trying to resolve which is why I likely come across as aggressive or lacking compassion on some days while other days I seem to be more open and understanding. I am working on trying to be a better version of myself, whatever my type may be. I just know that I want people to feel good and be happy and healthy and I don't think that comes from instant gratification type things like consuming a bunch of media or food or sugar or buying things.

Change doesn't start with taking down one thing or another but rather slowly chipping away what isn't working to replace it with what is. Humanity has been subject to this kind of system since it's inception I'd imagine so it's hard for me to imagine what the end result will be. Maybe we'll be dead and gone before we see how it turns out. For now, I just hope to lead by example in my life within the context and capacity of my own being. I think sometimes that is the best we can do. At least some of us.

I don't hope to lead by example as i don't make any claims to have attained any higher state (i'm a work in progress); if i can keep myself on an even keel that's good enough for me

But exploring and sharing info i feel i can do

It sounds like you are thinking about some sort of possible future plan relating to health and wellness (as a career) which might help heal that cognitive dissonance

 

[Trifoilum]

I read this on INTJforum.com under a thread titled "An INTJ's observations of INFJs"

TIME TO GET INTROSPECTIVE!! Haha

Your vote is anonymous. INFJs only on the poll, please. All are welcome to share comments though.

I want to talk about these observations. What are your reactions? These might be difficult to hear, but do you find that they are true for you? I also want to do a poll on number 4 about logical fallacies.

Ill write my personal response to each of the observations in my next post.

I can see some of this working even in myself. But a part of me feels like it has a certain..incomplete, or rather..a bias. In a sense that "It's true when..." or "It's true if..."

It's true, the observations. But not the entire picture. Therein lies the trap.

 

[barbad0s]

The counter-intuitive sore spot of an INTJ is this: they value practical and efficient ways of getting things done more than they will ever value logical integrity in and of itself.


That is why INTJs can easily look like hypocrites when it comes to what they believe is right and what they do. Because what they believe is right is feelings that they aren't very in touch with, and they have no reason to make themselves behave in a manner that is consistent with these internal beliefs unless they are inherently a very ethically-motivated INTJ.