An INTJ's observations of INFJs

RRiveter · Apr 2, 2015

I read this on INTJforum.com under a thread titled "An INTJ's observations of INFJs"

TIME TO GET INTROSPECTIVE!! Haha

Your vote is anonymous. INFJs only on the poll, please. All are welcome to share comments though.

I want to talk about these observations. What are your reactions? These might be difficult to hear, but do you find that they are true for you? I also want to do a poll on number 4 about logical fallacies.

Ill write my personal response to each of the observations in my next post.

"While there have been quite a few threads about INFJs on these forums, started either by INTJs or INFJs, some of them are rather old or just plain long, so I figured why not start a fresh one? Additionally, since INTJs and INFJs share three letters in common, and that they can sometimes be confused upon an initial meeting (I've confused an INFJ or two for an INTJ and I know--because I've been told--that INFJs have mistaken me for their own as well), why not, again, flesh out how INFJs seem different to us INTJs.

Also, some caveats. My observations are based on INFJs that I know or knew but are also based on what I have observed on various message boards about INFJs and posts from INFJs. My sample includes 'mature' and 'immature' INFJs, and I knew them at various points in my life, so I may have known them when I was 'less mature' than I am now (seeing as I don't think maturity is a definite feature, and it comes in degrees instead of having a precise terminus). Also, I don't intend (if my intentions in this even matter, as I am reporting observations and the observations are either true or false, irrespective of my intentions) to badmouth or trump up INFJs. I merely want to report what I've observed, and see if other INTJs have had similar observations (and perhaps INTPs, another close relative of us INTJs).
Lastly, when I refer to INTJs, I initially mean myself, but I think my generalization to all INTJs is fairly well supported, based on observations I've made about other INTJs, on these boards and elsewhere. So keep in mind that they are generalizations, not absolutes--I'm sure there are exceptions.

So here they are, in no special order:

1. INTJs and INFJs seem to agree that the world is a fairly messed up place, with wars, disease, etc. People are rarely sincere, have selfish motives, are frequently incompetent, and further, these features of people have bad consequences. However, our approach to this is radically different.

INTJs are quite ok with the world being screwed up, as long it doesn't interfere with our projects and goals, which may include somehow making the world a better place. Simply put, I don't lose sleep at night from the distress of the world being the way it is (although I may go without sleep trying to solve a problem --- puzzle about the world and solution to it. But this is akin to Sherlock Holmes obsessing about a mystery.... not that I compare to Holmes's brilliance).

INFJs, on the other hand, find the fact that the world is the way it is to be very very very distressing. Even if it doesn't directly impact them, just knowing that it is like that, and that it impacts others, is enough to cause them to collapse. For example, encountering someone who is insincere can cause them to question whether life is worth living, given that people are the way they are. They have to be coaxed into seeing how that doesn't have to keep them down, and that they can contribute to making it better than the way it is. Honestly, from an emotional standpoint, I have no idea what it is like to feel that. While understanding that the world can suck, I also know that there's not a whole lot I can do to make it better, but oh well.

2. There are two reactions that INFJs have to the T in INTJs. Either they believe that it isn't true, that deep down the INTJ is just like the INFJ but somehow suppressing it. If not that, then if they understand the T, that deep down the INTJ is NOT like the INFJ, then they think the INTJs are dead inside. We INTJs are psychopaths that just happen to not harm other people (except emotionally, because we are just so cold!). I think some of the more mature INFJs get that we aren't like INFJs but also aren't psychopath's (like many of the INFJs that post here).

On a side note, I generally find this reaction to be, well amusing. Then again, I usually don't really freaked out by someone calling me cold or a psychopath, just because I lack the 'passion' that they have. But I also know a bit about the cognitive functioning of psychopaths, and understand that it is NOT the same thing as an INTJ.

3. INFJs and INTJs mean two completely different things by the word 'understanding'. As an INTJ, I think I understand someone when I understand their position, understand the reasoning that lead them to hold that position, and understand the support they give to the premises in that reasoning. I can completely disagree with someone but still understand them. Vice versa for someone understanding me.

To an INFJ, however, someone understands *them only when someone *shares their intuitions and also shares their feelings towards whatever it is they are discussing. If someone disagrees with *them, then that person just obviously doesn't understand. However, an INFJ thinks they can understand someone else even if they disagree, via somehow empathizing with that person. So if you understand an INFJ, you agree, via shared intuitions and feelings with them, but an INFJ can understand you, not by understanding your reasoning, but seeing how you came to believe what you believe based on psychological and sociological factors. Which leads to...

4. I have had a very difficult time getting INFJs to understand certain types of logical fallacies, such as ad hominems, genetic fallacies, etc. Often when they disagree with me (which to them means I don't understand them ;p), even AFTER I've carefully articulated my reasoning behind my views, they resort to some type of psychological explanation of my belief, completely ignoring my reasoning. This is, of course, fallacious, but I've come to believe, sadly, that many INFJs are nearly (not entirely) incapable of seeing that this is fallacious (even one's that have studied logic!). At least, when others do it (say to them), it may be a fallacy, but when they do it, it's because they are ever so empathetic. I've experienced this on numerous occasions with persons I've known to be INFJs (they've taken the test) and seen it amongst INFJ posters on various internet boards.

5. This may be taken as fairly insulting, but it's *my observations, so here goes. INFJs can be dark. They can also be heavy. But they aren't always that *deep. Again, this is based on observations I've made of persons that I know are INFJs. For example, the world is a screwed up place - people are frequently very selfish and insincere. Is that a super deep judgement? I doubt it, but I may be biased - I'm getting a graduate degree in philosophy
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It seems plain obvios to me. It is, however, a dark judgment, especially when that's all you see. And it can be a *heavy discussion when that fact genuinely overwhelms you. But it's just not that deep. Don't get me wrong, I think Dostoyevsky is very deep, and that no doubt had a lot to do with his being an INFJ (at least most likely being an INFJ). And I have no doubt that many INFJs are capable of being deep. But the fact that they can frequently be dark and heavy doesn't make them deep. To be deep that need to take it further (and I usually have to coax them into, well RESEARCHING their concerns instead of just emoting them ;P to get them to that point).

6. INFJs and INTJs can both read people, but what we read and how it affects us differs a lot. I tend to judge someone's competence, and that stands out more glaringly than their motives. In other words, I can be friends with an asshole if he or she has something else to offer. I'll get frustrated by incompetence, especially if it interferes with my goals, but I won't get overwhelmed the way an INFJ would by someone's say, insincerity.

INFJs tend to read someone's sincerity though, more than (if at all) their competence. And a lack of sincerity, even if it doesn't, well directly impact say their goals or daily tasks, still heavily affects them. Too much insincerity, and they can seem downright crazy - like need to be locked in the 7th floor crazy -- at least to *this INTJ.

I have many more observations, but I've also written way too much already for an internet board Feel free to critique, add on, append, amend, etc these observations. I'm especially curious if other INTJs have noticed this. "
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SealHammer · Apr 2, 2015

I don't think there are many (healthy) INFJs who willfully eschew the pursuit of logical consistency in their beliefs and arguments. The mind straight-up isn't wired to function like that without some serious, unavoidable cognitive dissonance.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I personally try to maintain a foundation of reason in the things that I do. If that foundation shows itself to be unstable or I don't build off it properly, I always try to go back and understand where I made a mistake and how to correct it so it doesn't happen again. This means that if I'm not really focused in on a debate and I talk some shit, I often find myself making concessions to those who are more diligent. This is also why I don't debate unless I'm sure I'm prepared to dominate everyone else in the discourse.

muir · Apr 2, 2015

I find that INTJ's talk a good game about being 'logical' but I have debated with many of them over the years and i find that many of them are not actually thinking that logically

The really dogmatic ones basically come very much from the intellect in a very imbalanced way which is akin to dealing with a brain damaged person

SpecialEdition · Apr 2, 2015

I enjoyed this very much.

RRiveter · Apr 2, 2015

My detailed critique of the INTJs observations. Part 2 coming soon.

1. I agree that the world is a fucked up place, but it is also incredible. Especially with as much privilege as living in the U.S. grants me.

INFJs, on the other hand, find the fact that the world is the way it is to be very very very distressing. Even if it doesn't directly impact them, just knowing that it is like that, and that it impacts others, is enough to cause them to collapse.
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I once had a short depression back when I first started college and found out about the details of how we degrade our environment, and about the inequalities in the world and how truly shitty many people's lives are. It was a lot to learn, all at once.

Before and after that experience, I don't find details about the world crippling. In fact, I am almost always the idealist in the group, saying we could this.. or this..! or this..! I love to talk about how we can solve the complex problems of the world and talk policy.

However, certain topics cause me to tear up when I hear about them. I hide this reaction well and I do not talk about it with other people. For example, I started to tear up in class, a few weeks ago, when we learned about refugee camps, how poor their quality of life is within the camps and about all the loss they have to cope with. I dislike how intensely I feel about certain topics. Sometimes loud party music or beautiful music can make me tear up also, its really strange. This happen to anyone else?

For example, encountering someone who is insincere can cause them to question whether life is worth living, given that people are the way they are. They have to be coaxed into seeing how that doesn't have to keep them down, and that they can contribute to making it better than the way it is. Honestly, from an emotional standpoint, I have no idea what it is like to feel that. While understanding that the world can suck, I also know that there's not a whole lot I can do to make it better, but oh well.
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If someone starts to question whether life is worth living from encountering an insincere person.. Ummm. They are likely very depressed and need help, INFJ or not.
When I encounter or have to deal with insincere people, I like to bitch about it and talk it out with others. (Maybe that is where the INTJ is getting worried here?) Interestingly enough, I usually ask my INTJ friend what a reasonable response to the person would be.

2.

There are two reactions that INFJs have to the T in INTJs. Either they believe that it isn't true, that deep down the INTJ is just like the INFJ but somehow suppressing it. If not that, then if they understand the T, that deep down the INTJ is NOT like the INFJ, then they think the INTJs are dead inside.
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I can see how an INFJ would come to the conclusion that an INTJ is suppressing their feelings. I might have come to that conclusion when I was young. (High School and younger) Now that I am older, I know my intuitions need reality checks. I love the fact that INTJs don't have the crazy level of feels that INFJs sometimes have. I like people that are considered "cold" by others because this usually means they are rational thinkers and I can learn to develop my T from them or get good advice on how to handle situations. This also means that I can be very direct and honest and they will not lash out with strong emotions at me. So invaluable.

3.

INFJs and INTJs mean two completely different things by the word 'understanding'. As an INTJ, I think I understand someone when I understand their position, understand the reasoning that lead them to hold that position, and understand the support they give to the premises in that reasoning. I can completely disagree with someone but still understand them.
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To an INFJ, however, someone understands *them only when someone *shares their intuitions and also shares their feelings towards whatever it is they are discussing. If someone disagrees with *them, then that person just obviously doesn't understand. However, an INFJ thinks they can understand someone else even if they disagree, via somehow empathizing with that person. So if you understand an INFJ, you agree, via shared intuitions and feelings with them, but an INFJ can understand you, not by understanding your reasoning, but seeing how you came to believe what you believe based on psychological and sociological factors.
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This INTJ is correct on the fact that I feel understood when someone understands my intuitions and feelings and I feel I can understand others by empathizing with their intuitions and feelings.
However, I also highly value when someone will listen and ask questions about my logical reasoning and supporting evidence for my position, especially if it is an academic or political discussion. Though I sometimes struggle to express my thoughts confidently in this way because I feel people will take my "cold" reasoning and support as me being an asshole, especially being a woman. Many types have reacted this way to me and people I know.

..but an INFJ can understand you, not by understanding your reasoning, [but by] seeing how you came to believe what you believe based on psychological and sociological factors.
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I am very capable of understanding based on anothers reasoning and supporting evidence. (Maybe INFJs who haven't had a strong education (that teaches us T) may not be as capable.)
However, I do employ this method of understanding people as well, often when their position makes no logical sense. Like my mom being racist, for example. I understand why she would believe certain things based on the era in which she grew up, her limited education, and psychological trauma she endured as a child. Its not ok that is racist, but I understand her.

muir · Apr 2, 2015

The evil empire was very competant at building planetoid sized lazer ships (big cock extensions) that can destroy whole planets but they weren't so good at deciding if it was morally or ethically responsible to blow planets to smithereens

We currently live in a coporate dominated world that is moving all the wealth away from the people and to the CEO's and shareholders of the corporations

As the stats show some types earn more than others...these types are the CEO's and corporate types

You can speak to them online and they say things like: ''i don't really care what other people are feeling, i'm more focussed on my own game''

Here's a glimpse of the world these people would build and are building because they lack a rounded intelligence; they are imbalanced and think that wealth and power is everything

If people only care about 'competance' but don't care about motives this is what we get:

[video=youtube;WfGMYdalClU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGMYdalClU[/video]

RRiveter · Apr 2, 2015

If people only care about 'competance' but don't care about motives this is what we get:
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I think this is what happens when we don't measure people by their competence. *cough Ted Cruz *cough

muir · Apr 2, 2015

RRiveter said: ↑
I think this is what happens when we don't measure people by their competence. *cough Ted Cruz *cough
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That would be a mistake to think that

Politicians don't screw the world up because they are stupid or incompetent....they are not. They are doing exactly as they are told to do by their corporate overlords who fund their political campaigns

nosferatu · Apr 2, 2015

From personal experience...

INTJ literally bubble over with emotion and become softies if you've earned the privilege with them. INFJ's are more casually kinder with everyone. Again this is just an observation, not some universal truth haha.

Just don't be stupid with the INTJ and try your best to make sense. If it is a heated emotional reason for you, make it clear that you are discussing this aspect to them because emotionally it is important to you. Once you do, the INTJ will likely gladly emotionally support you, though he/she may not agree with you, and expect them to be honest with you about this.

I think to a degree an INFJ will stop and hint a bit to see if you are following their train of thought - where-as the INTJ will just steamroll you with their mind to show they have thought everything through, and keep in mind they are telling you this because they care about you, if they didn't they probably wouldn't waste the energy telling you.

INTJ and INFJ differences tossed aside, both are extremely visionary human beings, just may convey their message much differently.

Also I think INTJ don't really suppress their feelings, there's probably one person in specific they bubble over towards, but if you aren't that person, they may just not even consciously think of sharing their emotions. Like, people could take it as the INTJ being a freezer, but really they probably weren't even thinking about how they felt and if they even wanted to share emotions in the first place. Also I think their emotions show through what they do, and through what they do for others. For the INFJ sometimes I think the feelings show more genuinely when the person they are with is genuine to themselves, values, and interactions with the people in their life.

And I think the INTJ is actually much more prone to becoming dark, but isn't actually aware he/she is appearing that way to others, or aware he/she is being dark in the first place. Which is why it is so adorable.

nosferatu · Apr 2, 2015

Also uuuhm...

The INTJ I know irl are refreshingly human, some of the kindest people I've known, and don't really apply to internet stereotypes. They have been my closest comrades.

They aren't really deep at all, although the way their minds work/think things through could appear ridiculously deep and profound to some.

RRiveter · Apr 2, 2015

muir said: ↑
The evil empire was very competant at building planetoid sized lazer ships (big cock extensions) that can destroy whole planets but they weren't so good at deciding if it was morally or ethically responsible to blow planets to smithereens

We currently live in a coporate dominated world that is moving all the wealth away from the people and to the CEO's and shareholders of the corporations

As the stats show some types earn more than others...these types are the CEO's and corporate types

You can speak to them online and they say things like: ''i don't really care what other people are feeling, i'm more focussed on my own game''

Here's a glimpse of the world these people would build and are building because they lack a rounded intelligence; they are imbalanced and think that wealth and power is everything

If people only care about 'competance' but don't care about motives this is what we get:

[video=youtube;WfGMYdalClU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGMYdalClU[/video]
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So.. 2 and 5?

As a fellow INFJ, I understand wanting to speak up about things that seem morally wrong and that may lead to negative outcomes, but your response seems to prove the INTJ is correct about some observations.

2. You seem to be drawing a connection between INTJs ( or just Ts) and CEO or corporate types? Not being well-rounded enough to have goals other than wealth or power? If this is what you meant to say, then he is right about mistaking or misunderstanding T.

As a side note, claiming the blame is on CEO or corporate "types" is too simple. They are all different and likely have different motives. CEO of apple is advocating for gay rights at the moment and Apple is using their influence to fight against laws of discrimination like the one Indiana is proposing. Large companies are complaining that if states get to vote on their own discrimination laws that companies will be inconvenienced because they will have to change their businesses to cater to all of the state's differing laws. Also, some corporations don't want to open shop in states with discriminatory laws because they know that smart people are attracted to places with a good quality of life. The social equity laws in a state can actually make places less attractive to large corporations. This is a good link to learn more about this. http://thedianerehmshow.org/audio/#...freedom-laws-around-the-country/109733/@00:00

Yes, lobbying presidential candidates is a bad thing, but it is allowed in our current political system. Additionally, this can also be a good thing as in the case of Apple. Your post speaking out about it has sweeping, generalizing statements and a doomsday feel that I find unappealing. Which seemingly confirms the INTJs 5th point...

5. Being dark, emoting our frustrations about the world, instead of showing that we have researched topics well.

muir · Apr 2, 2015

RRiveter said: ↑
So.. 2 and 5?

As a fellow INFJ, I understand wanting to speak up about things that seem morally wrong and that may lead to negative outcomes, but your response seems to prove the INTJ is correct about some observations.
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I have spoken to INTJ's for years here on this forum

5 years and almost 10,000 posts

I can't tell you how many debates i have had with how many people on how many different subjects.....a lot

The people i clash with the most are INTJ's

Occaisionally an ENTJ but there don't seem to be nearly as many ENTJ's about as there are INTJ's

INTJ's seem to be unending in number; perhaps they are refugees from the INTJ forum, i don't know. But they come often with some very strong opinions but not always with very good knowledge or understanding

I'm not saying all INTJ's are like that but i'm telling you i have met A LOT like that

RRiveter said: ↑
2. You seem to be drawing a connection between INTJs ( or just Ts) and CEO or corporate types?
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I'm talking about power

Corporations are one way in which power manifests

RRiveter said: ↑
Not being well-rounded enough to have goals other than wealth or power? If this is what you meant to say, then he is right about mistaking or misunderstanding T.

As a side note, claiming the blame is on CEO or corporate "types" is too simple. They are all different and likely have different motives. CEO of apple is advocating for gay rights at the moment and Apple is using their influence to fight against laws of discrimination like the one Indiana is proposing.
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So what?

It will be a great PR coup for apple

Apple is sitting on a cash mountain of i think $150 billion and paid NO tax in the UK

Fuck apple

RRiveter said: ↑
Large companies are complaining that if states get to vote on their own discrimination laws that companies will be inconvenienced because they will have to change their businesses to cater to all of the state's differing laws. Also, some corporations don't want to open shop in states with discriminatory laws because they know that smart people are attracted to places with a good quality of life. The social equity laws in a state can actually make places less attractive to large corporations. This is a good link to learn more about this. http://thedianerehmshow.org/audio/#...freedom-laws-around-the-country/109733/@00:00
Click to expand...

RRiveter said: ↑
Yes, lobbying presidential candidates is a bad thing, but it is allowed in our current political system. Additionally, this can also be a good thing as in the case of Apple. Your post speaking out about it has sweeping, generalizing statements and a doomsday feel that I find unappealing. Which seemingly confirms the INTJs 5th point...

5. Being dark, emoting our frustrations about the world, instead of showing that we have researched topics well.
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Speak with me more and see if i have researched well

muir · Apr 2, 2015

http://www.latinpost.com/articles/3...er-reportedly-believes-apple-iphone-spies.htm

Edward Snowden News: NSA Whistleblower Reportedly Believes the Apple iPhone Spies on Users

Edward Snowden says the Apple iPhone has some software installed in it that allows governments to spy on people without their knowledge.

Snowden, who was a NSA whisteblower, does not use an iPhone because of fears of being spyed on, his lawyer revealed, The Independent reports.

"Edward never uses an iPhone, he's got a simple phone," Anatoly Kucherena reportedly told Russian news agency RIA Novosti. "The iPhone has special software that can activate itself without the owner having to press a button and gather information about him, that's why on security grounds he refused to have [an iPhone]."

j654dgj7 · Apr 2, 2015

They've got a point.

muir · Apr 2, 2015

vandyke said: ↑
They've got a point.
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Can i ask who that is in your avatar?

j654dgj7 · Apr 2, 2015

muir said: ↑
Can i ask who that is in your avatar?
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The insatiable Fiona Apple

[video=youtube;u09s0uz0tEU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u09s0uz0tEU[/video]

muir · Apr 2, 2015

vandyke said: ↑
The insatiable Fiona Apple

[video=youtube;u09s0uz0tEU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u09s0uz0tEU[/video]
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Do you think it is strange that she is highlighting her eye like that?

j654dgj7 · Apr 2, 2015

muir said: ↑
Do you think it is strange that she is highlighting her eye like that?
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How do you mean? Like how she's resting her hand on her face?

sorry to derail the thread, just curious where this leads

muir · Apr 2, 2015

vandyke said: ↑
How do you mean? Like how she's resting her hand on her face?

sorry to derail the thread, just curious where this leads
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Yeah...you know...the way she is posing for the photo

Like for example look at this photo of malcolm X:

You see the way he is pointing to his eye?

You see the black and white background? The symbology of the ring on his hand...the crescent moon and the pentagram?

He is pointing to his eye....this is a way of saying to people who understand: ''i have the eyes to see'' (I understand the game, the symbols and the way the world works)

See here karl marx tucking his hand into his top:

See how he tucks his hand into his top? That is his way of indicating that he is part of the 'hidden hand' secret society network. He worked, in london, under their protection on his writings.

See here an image of a freemason giving the hand sign for those with the eyes to see:

So you have there a pop singer highlighting her eye...this is not random or coincidental

It means that she is under the control of the forces that control the pop culture through the mass media corporations

Look at a mass media company symbol for example

Here is CBS:

So what is there? An eye...to the left of the letters 'cbs'.....right?

Here is media company AOL's symbol:

...an eye in the pyramid

Ok and where does the money behind the media come from? It comes from the financial sector. Here is the symbology on the back of their dollar bill that they print (printed by private banks not by the government)

Here's pop star jay z flashing the pyramid hand sign and wearing his 'do as thou wilt' alesiter crowley top:

These are subtexts to reality

I read them easily but INTJ's in my experience cannot. Often they dismiss it as 'crazy' or something like that

Their minds cannot operate well at that level of perceiving because they lean too heavily on their left hemisphere of their brain.

They use their left brain well for certain tasks so they develop an impression that they are very clever (and they do have competancy in left brain areas) but to an INFJ they seem like a blind person who cannot see past the end of their nose

This kind of psychic technology can be used for good or bad depending in the intent of the practitioner

Unfortunately ENTJ's and often INTJ's have that frustrated ''i am a genius....the world MUST recognise my genius'' thing going on and it then manifests as power seeking when they find that people do not accept them so well...it turns to bitterness and that is the path to the dark side

INFJ's too are often outcasts but there is something in the INFJ make up that tends to turn them the other direction into protectors rather than people seeking some sort of vindictive revenge against the world

Eventhorizon · Apr 3, 2015

I do not know how accurate this is but I will say it sounds accurate to me. However I would go further and say that logical fallacies and how you describe them are not the soul domain of infjs. My experience is that this type of thing affects the greater population of the world. You can show someone truth, facts and proof of something. ..the person can appear to be intelligent but if they dont want to believe it for whatever reason it will be as if they never saw any of it.

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