Am I the only one who hates historicism?? | INFJ Forum

Am I the only one who hates historicism??

Discussion in 'History, Travel, and Culture' started by slant, Apr 25, 2019.

Share This Page

Watchers:
This thread is being watched by 10 users.
More threads by slant
  1. slant

    slant Fairly Tragic

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Threads:
    283
    Messages:
    7,819
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    2,142
    Trophy Points:
    892
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    6w5
    This is mainly a rant thread. But I was journaling and a big piece clicked in my head just now.

    I've been going on a lot of nice dates with INTPs but despite our shared intellect and general on paper compatibility I always leave those interactions feeling peeved and disappointed.

    I was so puzzled about why for quite a spell. Then I realized something. They're super into history and mostly like talking about history. I would try to engage them in a hypothetical future conversation and they would reference real events that happened in the past as a way to construct their hypotheticals and I'm sitting there like

    NO! COME UP WITH YOUR OWN IDEA!

    anyways that's the context of this realization.

    But yeah, ever since I read Karl Poppers "the poverty of historicism" I've not been a big fan of focusing too much on the past as a way to predict the future or even just as an interesting discussion. I'm more interested in how the past relates to the present or more importantly the future and don't like to "predict" based on pre determined models, instead, I envision something totally new.

    Anyone else ever bothered by people really fixated on the past? Whether it be history of the world or just their own past. Some people seem to be super stuck, or at least, for a future envisioning person it *appears* like being stuck.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    John K and Misty like this.
  2. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2017
    Threads:
    0
    Messages:
    7,780
    Likes Received:
    27,566
    Trophy Points:
    2,877
    MBTI:
    ENTJ
    Enneagram:
    3w4, 3-8-7
    Yeah, as we get older I think the tendency to be fixated on the past is a natural phenomenon.

    I don't have a hard time with this yet because while I'm fixated on getting results in the future, I use my past experiences to "reach" forward.

    If one isn't practically using their knowledge and experience to better themselves and their life, what they've learned is useless.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Misty, John K and Milktoast Bandit like this.
  3. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2018
    Threads:
    24
    Messages:
    6,718
    Featured Threads:
    11
    Likes Received:
    51,702
    Trophy Points:
    4,032
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK, a part of the EU
    MBTI:
    INTJ
    Enneagram:
    1w2
    Just sounds like you don't like evidence, but in any case what you described isn't 'historicism'.

    Also, those guys probably did 'come up with their own idea', but then read some things and realised that it already had a name.

    What are you arguing against, exactly?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    John K, Misty, Reason and 5 others like this.
  4. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2017
    Threads:
    0
    Messages:
    7,780
    Likes Received:
    27,566
    Trophy Points:
    2,877
    MBTI:
    ENTJ
    Enneagram:
    3w4, 3-8-7
    OP feels limited by facts because they don't consider them to be "original" ideas.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    John K, Milktoast Bandit, Ren and 2 others like this.
  5. OP
    slant

    slant Fairly Tragic

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Threads:
    283
    Messages:
    7,819
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    2,142
    Trophy Points:
    892
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    6w5
    Putting so much weight into history without realizing history is biased and that just because the sun rises every morning you can't predict it will tomorrow, something could happen, the sun could explode, there could be a fatal collision etc etc at much as the past are facts you can't entirely base your viewpoint on that because history doesn't have scientific controls implemented; life in general has chaos and unforseeable events. Like going back to ancient Greece to figure out how to get a virus off your computer is inefficient
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  6. OP
    slant

    slant Fairly Tragic

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Threads:
    283
    Messages:
    7,819
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    2,142
    Trophy Points:
    892
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    6w5
    Not exactly. Facts are good but you use them as a sounding board to create something different. Base something off it, not just talk about things of the past with a tear in your eye.

    Honestly it's not even an argument just an observation as well as a rant about how annoying it is.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2017
    Threads:
    0
    Messages:
    7,780
    Likes Received:
    27,566
    Trophy Points:
    2,877
    MBTI:
    ENTJ
    Enneagram:
    3w4, 3-8-7
    Oh.

    Honestly, you're a better person than me to care about other people's detailed thoughts and opinions.

    I don't know if I'm close-minded but I just don't give a shit most of the time.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Milktoast Bandit, Ren and Hostarius like this.
  8. OP
    slant

    slant Fairly Tragic

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Threads:
    283
    Messages:
    7,819
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    2,142
    Trophy Points:
    892
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    6w5
    That's depression bro
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Misty, Hostarius and Pin like this.
  9. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2018
    Threads:
    24
    Messages:
    6,718
    Featured Threads:
    11
    Likes Received:
    51,702
    Trophy Points:
    4,032
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK, a part of the EU
    MBTI:
    INTJ
    Enneagram:
    1w2
    Do you seriously believe that your dates aren't considering chaos or contingency? You make it sound as if what you're saying is somehow revelatory, and I'm sorry if I sound harsh, right now my life circumstances have eroded my patience.

    Can you give an example of where you weren't satisfied by their conversation?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  10. OP
    slant

    slant Fairly Tragic

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Threads:
    283
    Messages:
    7,819
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    2,142
    Trophy Points:
    892
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    6w5
    How can anyone boil down cause and effect of a historical fact with 100% accuracy? Why is it that texts written about the same event can be totally different, or, how is it that we "find" history. A document is discovered and we find out about xyz happening during this time that we had no other references about before. To use the past as a predictor of the future is nuts. I'd give that method a 60% accuracy rates. I hate historicism
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Misty, Lady Jolanda and Hostarius like this.
  11. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2017
    Threads:
    0
    Messages:
    7,780
    Likes Received:
    27,566
    Trophy Points:
    2,877
    MBTI:
    ENTJ
    Enneagram:
    3w4, 3-8-7
    Nah, I'm functional. I get things done.

    Everything will be fine.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  12. Sloe Djinn

    Sloe Djinn Idiot with Internet Access.

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Threads:
    129
    Messages:
    4,895
    Featured Threads:
    9
    Likes Received:
    8,655
    Trophy Points:
    877
    MBTI:
    SOCMOB
    Enneagram:
    .
    This just makes me think of freestyle rapping vs writing rhymes. There's nothing wrong with either, but rappers have their preferences.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Misty, John K, Reason and 5 others like this.
  13. OP
    slant

    slant Fairly Tragic

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Threads:
    283
    Messages:
    7,819
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    2,142
    Trophy Points:
    892
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    6w5
    Yeah neither is BETTER. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying I get bored of talking about the past unless you're tying it into something about the future. Some people will get really excited about talking about something that happened 2000 years ago and even when you try to make it relevant to modern issues they keep pulling it back to talk about the past . Just seems unproductive.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Misty, John K, Asa and 1 other person like this.
  14. Hostarius

    Hostarius Level 10 Cynical Optimist

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2018
    Threads:
    24
    Messages:
    6,718
    Featured Threads:
    11
    Likes Received:
    51,702
    Trophy Points:
    4,032
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK, a part of the EU
    MBTI:
    INTJ
    Enneagram:
    1w2
    All of your points are good ones, but I think there are ways of understanding that accounts for them all.

    Screw it. This is the system I'm working on right now, drafting it into a paper for History & Theory.
     

    Attached Files:

    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2017
    Threads:
    0
    Messages:
    7,780
    Likes Received:
    27,566
    Trophy Points:
    2,877
    MBTI:
    ENTJ
    Enneagram:
    3w4, 3-8-7
    Whoa! Damn, that's impressive stuff.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    John K, Ren, Ginny and 1 other person like this.
  16. Emanuel Goldstein

    Emanuel Goldstein Community Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    812
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,253
    Trophy Points:
    708
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    No idea
    That person (don't want to assume a gender just in case) has got your number ;)

    It probably is depression ...
     
    Misty, Hostarius and Pin like this.
  17. Emanuel Goldstein

    Emanuel Goldstein Community Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    812
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,253
    Trophy Points:
    708
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    No idea
    Whenever, I discuss the future... It's specifically in relation to the future. This is based of the quote "History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes" often attributed to Oscar Wilde. This seems like a sound theory... If it works I'll continue to use it... If it doesn't I'll look for something else that works... I also occasionally lend credence to the old adage "Those that don't pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it"

    So if nothing else I like to pay need to the wisdom of our ancestors and occasionally pay attention to it...
     
    John K, slant, Ren and 2 others like this.
  18. Emanuel Goldstein

    Emanuel Goldstein Community Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    812
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,253
    Trophy Points:
    708
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    No idea
    So it's not that you don't like history... You just don't like unproductive conversations about history that aren't practical... and relatable to the present/future.

    I'd buy that for a dollar...
     
    Misty, John K, slant and 3 others like this.
  19. Asa

    Asa Resident palindrome

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2015
    Threads:
    75
    Messages:
    4,720
    Featured Threads:
    23
    Likes Received:
    25,104
    Trophy Points:
    1,831
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    This is why it doesn't bother me. People have different interests and different methods to get where they want to go. There is usually something to learn from listening or observing.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  20. Ginny

    Ginny Wolf soul

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Threads:
    29
    Messages:
    5,941
    Featured Threads:
    10
    Likes Received:
    37,209
    Trophy Points:
    3,042
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Casa Grigia
    MBTI:
    INFJ IEI
    Enneagram:
    1w2 sx/sp
    I consider history at least equally important as foresight based on present events alone. If we recognise the pattern of present events relating to one from the past, knowledge of past events and their outcome can be used to influence present events as they unfold.

    This works on the premise that people don't change, that they the next generation is just as blind as the preceding ones. While this needn't be fully true, ignoring evidence from past events as an indicator of what it might correlate to in the present can enforce the point about unchanging generations. Changes are ever present, but the tools that are being used are and work still the same, no matter how much has changed - this is the part involving human nature. In order to make the past useful for the present, the past needs to be discussed not only on the basis of today's knowledge, but it's important to recognise the mindset of the people synchronously in order to make any diachronical assessments. However, not all of it can be done all at once all the time, especially when there are disagreements among discourse participants.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't care much for history (it's too much to learn all of it anyway), but I recognise that it is important to have historical discourse on some level (even if not all potential participants agree on methodology).
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    John K, Reason, Lady Jolanda and 2 others like this.

Share This Page