A Psychological Exercise or 'Why Those At The Top Seem Able To Justify Anything'. | INFJ Forum

A Psychological Exercise or 'Why Those At The Top Seem Able To Justify Anything'.

Chessie

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Apr 5, 2010
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There's quite a lot of screaming going on in the media... honestly? I couldn't think of a better way to start this than that? Okay, lets try this again.

I set out to figure out how it's possible to have absolutely no empathy whatsoever for other people. I plugged along for some time, looking at the ways CEO's act and react to change and how, within the American system, they tend to grind the 'everyman' into the dirt. What I finally came to was a few salient conclusions.

The 'wars' and digressions in Congress aren't actually ideological. None of them. They are, in fact, very practical. Each one exists to a purpose and if you start from that position rather than that each 'side' has different beliefs then suddenly our system of government (and it's current failures) make a lot more sense.

Now, a position based on 'beliefs' is a very emotional one. You can't really argue with a belief. Scientific studies have shown repeatedly that even if a person is massively, obviously, provably wrong that attacking their position with facts won't change their minds. It will entrench them more heavily in their belief, especially if they have emotionally vested themselves in that belief.

So arguing the virtues of Atheism with Christians or vice-versa is actually counter productive. Arguing the realities of abortion in America is silly. We're a belief oriented country. This situation was engineered VERY carefully over many years by people who knew exactly what they were doing.

Keep this in mind. George W. Bush was the most successful American president of the past 30 years. He set out to achieve a VAST swath of goals and managed nearly every one of them. I am speaking of 'success' based purely on what he set out to do. The consequences of those actions were also part of his initial intent. Yes, he knew multiple wars mixed with tax cuts would cause bankruptcy. It was obvious. He had a thousand people to tell him so. It wasn't just hubris or insanity.

Bankruptcy benefited those who owned him. Those at the very bottom who suddenly found themselves broke also found themselves unable to recover. The social safety net didn't exist. They were easy to purchase and at a much lower rate than otherwise would have been available. Debt became the means of ownership of people. College debt is a popular one because it can't be discharged. Medical debt is another because it's so difficult to avoid.

Other countries simply pay for college and medicine.

I want you to imagine someone coming into your house and demanding money from you. Even today, tax time is difficult. People don't enjoy shelling out money because there's a massive disconnect between what they put out and what each of them personally receives back. Keep in mind, this is ON PURPOSE.

Again, those in what ultimately amounts to power benefit from a government too starved to fight them.

Imagine you have a scab on your arm. It's composed of your cells. It serves a purpose. Many of those cells are alive and doing their best to keep you alive. It's part of your body.

Still, when it starts to itch, you pick it off and flick it away. Why? It was there to keep you safe. It was doing it's job. Parts of it were alive. You do it because it's SMALL. Simply enough. There is no organization to save an endangered insect but we will gleefully save an endangered dolphin.

Size counts and interaction counts.

Now, I want you to imagine you are at the top. In your 24 hour day you can snap your fingers and purchase anything you desire. You can sleep in the most opulent house imaginable and eat the finest foods.

Several servants move onto your land. They work your home and serve you but equally sometimes you find they've taken food. They're living beings. They're helping you. Some are even loyal.

Now, you or I, poor though we may be, would most likely ignore the squatters so long as they aren't hurting anyone. We can empathize with them.

At the top, empathy is actually dangerous. Dominance is established not by empathizing but by a willingness to quickly and viciously adapt yourself to changing circumstance. Dominance means brutally crushing any danger or eliminating any threat. Those servants stealing food would be a threat.

The way power alters brain chemistry is in much the same way cocaine does. Threat registers become outsized. After enough time the mind begins to perceive threats everywhere. Paranoia becomes endemic.

Keep this in mind then. Our government here in the States is a massive, powerful beast controlled by men who've been empowered over 70 years to make decisions and whose decisions have only empowered them further. Welfare, education, diplomacy, tolerance, and negotiation have become scabs. They're irritants. A country that tells itself it is 'the greatest' is vastly insecure. In it's insecurity, when it notices one of the reasons it's insecure it immediately places that insecurity behind a wall of denial.

We have reached a place where maintaining the self-image of ourselves as 'great' has forced us to cut off and deny so much that now that we're forced to examine what we've denied the weight of our failure feels overwhelming. This is a systemic collapse.

Don't worry. It's a good thing. Systems are replaced and evolve. You will probably get to be around for one of these periods of evolution. You will be given the opportunity to alter the 'predator/prey' dynamic once again to attempt to prevent this from recurring later.

Keep in mind, whatever system you come up with, it's gonna collapse. You're only coming up with next iteration.
 
You might want to rethink that entire post.
 
[MENTION=3156]Saru Inc[/MENTION]

i guess you arent an underpaid third world worker...
 
There's quite a lot of screaming going on in the media... honestly? I couldn't think of a better way to start this than that? Okay, lets try this again.

I set out to figure out how it's possible to have absolutely no empathy whatsoever for other people. I plugged along for some time, looking at the ways CEO's act and react to change and how, within the American system, they tend to grind the 'everyman' into the dirt. What I finally came to was a few salient conclusions.

The 'wars' and digressions in Congress aren't actually ideological. None of them. They are, in fact, very practical. Each one exists to a purpose and if you start from that position rather than that each 'side' has different beliefs then suddenly our system of government (and it's current failures) make a lot more sense.

.....

We have reached a place where maintaining the self-image of ourselves as 'great' has forced us to cut off and deny so much that now that we're forced to examine what we've denied the weight of our failure feels overwhelming. This is a systemic collapse.

Don't worry. It's a good thing. Systems are replaced and evolve. You will probably get to be around for one of these periods of evolution. You will be given the opportunity to alter the 'predator/prey' dynamic once again to attempt to prevent this from recurring later.

Keep in mind, whatever system you come up with, it's gonna collapse. You're only coming up with next iteration.

I am in complete agreement with your assessments....especially with regard to George W and his success rate based upon his own agenda. The middle class was just still hanging on - so the wars were orchestrated to finally bring us to our knees. So far so good....

I am very curious about your statement "You will be given the opportunity....to prevent this from recurring later". What do you mean?

Will we not enter into a fascist period? [in reading the following description of Facsism....I believe we are already in the midst of converting to Fascism.]

Fascists have commonly presented themselves as politically syncretic—opposing firm association with any section of the left-right spectrum, considering it inadequate to describe their beliefs,


though fascism's goal to promote the rule of people deemed innately superior while seeking to purge society of people deemed innately inferior has been noted as being a prominent far-right stance.


Fascism opposes multiple ideologies: conservatism, liberalism, and the two major forms of socialism—communism and social democracy.

To achieve its goals, the fascist state purges forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration.


Fascism promotes political violence and war as forms of direct action that promote national rejuvenation, spirit and vitality.

Fascists commonly utilize paramilitary organizations to commit or threaten violence against their opponents.

I recently read an article where the state of TX Republicans have put forth their agenda with regard to education:

Early this month, Texas Republican delegates met in Fort Worth to approve their 2012 platform, notable parts of which take aim at the state's education system.
......

The position causing the most controversy, however, is the statement that they oppose the teaching of "higher order thinking skills" -- a curriculum which strives to encourage critical thinking -- arguing that it might challenge "student's fixed beliefs" and undermine "parental authority."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...2097.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

This is a bold statement declaring their intention to further dumb down students wending their way through the TX Education system. Seems congruent with fascism so far...
There is a high probability the Republicans will continue to dominate TX politics - so I expect to see a future TX full of ignorant people who will vote for whomever entertains them the most.

How do you think we might be able to influence the system such that this doesn't occur in the future? Especially considering the fact the ones in power are continuing to erode education of the public?
 
Keep this in mind then. Our government here in the States is a massive, powerful beast controlled by men who've been empowered over 70 years to make decisions and whose decisions have only empowered them further. Welfare, education, diplomacy, tolerance, and negotiation have become scabs. They're irritants. A country that tells itself it is 'the greatest' is vastly insecure. In it's insecurity, when it notices one of the reasons it's insecure it immediately places that insecurity behind a wall of denial.

Don't worry. It's a good thing. Systems are replaced and evolve. You will probably get to be around for one of these periods of evolution. You will be given the opportunity to alter the 'predator/prey' dynamic once again to attempt to prevent this from recurring later.


In the context of history, it is clear that large powerful civilizations tend to build up arrogance and then collapse, so on that level, I would not worry. Of course, they do not collapse until considerable damage has been done.
 
I'm not going into this again, enough with the class warfare. that is all.

This is a pitiful, knee-jerk response and you should feel bad. This essay isn't really about class warfare. It touches on it, yes, but this was about the anthropological and psychological reasons a society falls apart and how it is justified in the minds of those responsible. I'm not advocating 'hang the rich'. I think we're well beyond that at this point.
 
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I am in complete agreement with your assessments....especially with regard to George W and his success rate based upon his own agenda. The middle class was just still hanging on - so the wars were orchestrated to finally bring us to our knees. So far so good....

I am very curious about your statement "You will be given the opportunity....to prevent this from recurring later". What do you mean?

I'm afraid this is an incredibly difficult and multi-layered answer you've asked for.

I should qualify my statements though.

Those who survive the oncoming (but temporary) period of 'fascism' will have such an opportunity. Fascism is based heavily on fear. If we equate the brain to the leadership of a country then fascist behavior is the body realizing it is dying and lashing out violently in a bid to survive just a little while longer. Sometimes it works for a while. Sometimes it only hastens it's demise. Eventually, inevitably, it doesn't work and the system/body fails. It's physical resources are reconstituted and another species devours it.

The collective resources of America are simply staggering. Technological, creative, and intellectual resources which are being squandered en-mass by the inability of the body-politic to make use of them within it's current structure will suddenly be useable again in the new system. Compare this to an Olympic athlete.

The athlete requires a ridiculous number of calories each day. Their body uses that many and maintains itself from them. As the athlete ages, their body no longer uses the resources as efficiently. It requires adaptation to continue using those resources well. If the body doesn't adapt, (as with American copyright law and drug policy) then resources begin to be wasted. The athlete gets fat. He loses muscle mass. His bone density drops. In the case of a country failing to use it's resources, we find large numbers of people in jail. Huge quantities of the population slide into debt. Obesity becomes endemic. Necessary institutions become unavailable (healthcare for instance).

Imagine a heart in a body, trying to pump blood. Blood is needed everywhere but the heart is too weak and not getting proper instructions from the brain. Blood is these human resources we just mentioned. Now, at first the brain simply begins cutting blood flow to the skin somewhat. Then the extremities. Finally, organs begin to shut down.

We exist in a system defined by biological necessity. During the next iteration of our self-governance we may alter that to be a system defined by technological needs and intellectual needs. We may include cybernetics in our bodies. We may abandon the human form. We may become collectives of thought. Whatsoever we do, it will be another step in our evolution and that step is likely to happen within our life-times because of the telescoping nature of our species development.
 
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@Saru Inc

i guess you arent an underpaid third world worker...

i guess you have fun stereotyping

disappointing.

ikr?

This is a pitiful, knee-jerk response and you should feel bad. This essay isn't really about class warfare. It touches on it, yes, but this was about the anthropological and psychological reasons a society falls apart and how it is justified in the minds of those responsible. I'm not advocating 'hang the rich'. I think we're well beyond that at this point.

This seems more pitiful than my response, but i guess we are way past it. Lets infiltrate the rich and kill them all, then we can have commoners run nuclear power plants like che guevara tried. Also: hardly an essay, word vomit perhaps
 
Sounds like Marxism 101, combined with all kinds of paranoid conspiracy theories and of course the omnipresent rage against the machine.

Fair enough, Marx probably was right... and yes, everything stagnates if you don't change it. But every time someone says 'oncoming period of fascism' I really can't roll my eyes hard enough.
 
Yeaaa..... man. this is... ehech... no words.

First: Look. if you dont' like it, then do something about it. take control of your situation for crapsake. start a non-profit, or a liberal thinktank... and try to get some actual evidence other than "my brain thought it so it must be the case" when presenting your side of an arguement. You may not feel you need it, but it will help to show others that you are indeed accurate in your insights.

Also, as far as rich/powerful and empathy goes... besides being an obnoxiously overgeneralized and in many ways erronious... lets back it up a bit... and why don't you start with defining rich, and "the top", just the elected sitting president? you mentioned CEO's. I've held that title myself before. It was a 12 man company. I didn't get rich, but I did make a good income, and I earned every cent because I decided to invest years in learning how to "make things happen". I also paid a high price for it, stress on relationships, litigation, countless setbacks, and at least a few money sucking failed attempts. Bill gates is now the worlds biggest philanthropist, and i'm sure he fucks lots of things over besides his competition in the 80's and early 90's...but, these were not exactly "innocents" They chose to engage and interact on the battlefield of industry. They could have gone into social work... i'm sure bill wouldnt have bothered with them had they done that. A failure is almost never anyones fault but your own. And if that means there is a failure of your world to change as you believe is best...well, taht's on YOU. the quicker people respect this, and accept it, the quicker they act on it, and the quicker the problem actually starts to shrink away.

by the way...have you ever tried to actually do some good in the world? or do you just like to focus on thinking about your view of the bad? I know of a guy who raised some capital and bought a little business complex with it, and rented it out exclusively to "humanitarian type" entities. Green peace took one office, buddhist monks had a prayer room that he let them rent basically at cost. also, an organization that goes by the name of PIRG (public interest research group), who is the same that leads up the human rights campaign to give homosexuals equal legal rights inthe united states... they rented an office too. Whenever he had a full building of tenents, he gave some discounts, and he organized a charity bike ride to preserve a local wetland.

And, after a year or so of doing this...know what happened? well, other people with money approached him, and said "we love your work... tell us what you want to do next, and we'll write out the check for it". Guy still is doing this today... and has made a lasting impression on his little beachside community in ways taht are tangible, and even spiritual for lack of a better word...as he has helped bring an increased sense of community pride and solidarity to his neck of the woods.

But, of course your right. all CEO's or others with means or those who are at "the top" are spawns of evil, ready to sell mom into slavery while they crap on humanity.

Your view is so reactionary, so over simplified, and so juvenial it's just.... kinda gross.

You know... those power mongers at the top.... they'll actually do your bidding.... like my friend here got them to do for him (beachside commercial complexes tend to run in the 7 figures to purchase, and he was basically broke when he got it, but he convinced an investor to believe in him and his vision)... but see, you need to actually have a vision of change, put in serious work to convey taht vision, and desire to MAKE a difference, rather than just complain about the difference you arn't making.

sigh. Maybe I just don't get it. maybe it's all just too well orchestarted, and we are just powerless weenie men who are forced to be victims of circumstances.

Or, maybe we just like living with a victim mentality. Last I checked, even if there is a "they"... we all put our pants on the same way... and we all can raise our own armies, marshal our own resources, and launch the crusade that makes a difference.

Aright, enough soapbox... just tell me one thing. Really... am I missing something here?

-E
 
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Well, you attacked GW and that gets the best of FOX and friends out feeding.
Ever watch a show called the Walking Dead. Just had a visual, that's all.

I would offer it's common sense.
I don't know the multi billionaires, but I do know a couple 100s millionaires.

Family acquaintances, people that have come and gone. It does seem you can say somethings about people with privilege, or enormous privilege. Again, I don't know 10s of them, but my fair share. And I've found myself in the depths of Newark, Philadelphia and shooting galleries. Trying to get a friend out not booting up myself. I like my life for being quite as variegated as it has been. But my point is I kind of recognize a certain sociopathic behavior about people that wake up thinking about things I don't.
The attitude of making and destroying things at will is the most disturbing. But taking out a village is the same grace wouldn't you say. Whatever.

For me, life has made me humble.
If I see myself behaving in a way I don't approve, I am merciless. I, in my own way, have had all the pleasures and been afforded all the things many people seem to want. Having that eventually taught me humility. For that I am grateful.

So, in part, I agree. For me, it isn't crazy or paranoid. People suck, but the ones that have the influence really suck. I've seen it and not really interested in defending why it's real to me. Just sad others can't see it cause it's ignorant in my opinion. That's a condescending pov I guess. Oh well But imagine, like your essay details :), you woke up with enormous privilege. Maybe you buy or sell a company or a huge number of shares in a company. Does this sound unrealistic. I promise you I know people that do this. And I'm pretty sure I can say they aren't too worried about anyone else, and don't seem to mind taking casualties. Why would it surprise anyone that people with power and money are the ones that have a direct line to our legislators. That's the way this country started. If you weren't a land owner, or a white male, you couldn't vote. Kinda seems like the system is run by those with means.

Today you can vote black, female, asian or any other ethnicity or orientation. But I'm not sure people without means have the same influence.

So I'm not sure what the point of this is.
But I like your take on empathy. There are sociopaths and while I'm not looking for my daddy's love, my dad is a sociopath. A complete psycho, so I know what one is.
Sorry dad. But pretty sure you don't care.


And I like your way of explaining the differences in people's opinions and why arguing doesn't work. I think it's sort of common sense to say the prerequisite to any conversation is the ability to articulate the other sides point, unless they don't have one I guess. Then it's just waiting for them to stop talking.
 
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Let me summarise the op,

People with wealth/power are evil/manipulative
Facism will be the result

The op does not understand that facism is national socialism; an attempt by the many to restrain the success of the few and to curtail the liberty/assets of anyone who says otherwise or who doesn't fit the mold of who they consider a 'national' to be.
 
Let me summarise the op,

People with wealth/power are evil/manipulative
Facism will be the result

The op does not understand that facism is national socialism; an attempt by the many to restrain the success of the few and to curtail the liberty/assets of anyone who says otherwise or who doesn't fit the mold of who they consider a 'national' to be.


I'm not sure how you come to those interpretations.

He talks about GW being successful.
You can't argue that.

He discusses there being no point to arguing religion. I can't argue with that.


He talks about corporate lifestyle and the way it pushes employees into the ground. Makes us scared to survive. Brings out the most primitive behaviors as we talk behind each others backs, go to any length to make others seem incompetent. A true competitive culture.


He states congress and our legislators are really just practical and not the idealist we might think them to be. Sort of agree with him. Do you believe congress is made up of people that really about the people. I tend to think it's money and getting reelected.


He state an opinion that keeping people poor is a way or driving the masses into submission. Maybe speculative, but plausible. If our legislators were truly concerned about our well being, in my opinion, they would focus in our educational institutions. But ignorance quells the masses. So call me the same as you maybe call him/her but I kinda agree with that and think it plausible.

Where is he talking about fascism?
 
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Post #10
 
It was enough to read the first post.
I really should get in the habit of reading the thread before talking too much.

Sorry Chessie. Post 10 does kinda lose me.

No way man. Post #10 MADE this thread IMO

-E
 
In the context of history, it is clear that large powerful civilizations tend to build up arrogance and then collapse, so on that level, I would not worry. Of course, they do not collapse until considerable damage has been done.

Or until there's a revolution...