Youth Going Through Gender Transition Are More At Risk Of Psychiatric Issues

What was I not being logical about?

How do my feelings invalidate those logical structures I purported to use.

It seems to me if you cared about logic and reality and not about your own ego you'd listen to what i have to say.

Traping people is not something i find interesteing but I only state what i believe is true.

I never ask people yes / no questions because that's requireing me to finght battles that make me look stupid.

If you think I am BSing you do not know me and thus far have now real understanding of what I am saying.

What is wrong with what i am saying?

You have no clue

Just garbage logic.

That is why I said what I said because if what I am saying is not true you expect me to admit when I am wrong but you don't care about that. Its just a game to you and you do not treat people as individuals but as games.
Fruit, let’s be clear: this isn’t a 'game.' It’s an autopsy of a failed argument.

You claim to care about logic and reality, yet you just admitted to avoiding direct questions because you fear they make you 'look stupid.' That is the literal definition of Intellectual Dishonesty. A person who seeks the Truth doesn't care about looking stupid; they only care about being correct. You, instead, prioritize your image over the facts.

You call my logic 'garbage,' yet it’s the only thing that forced you to face a clinical reality (the Doctor/DSM-V) that you tried to bypass with pseudoscientific rants about malnutrition and 'feelings.'

You spent pages using 'science' as a weapon against Quick, but the moment that same science validated a frame you dislike, you retreated into: -|_Attacking the field of Psychiatry.-|-Claiming to be a victim of a 'trap.'-|- Appealing to your own subjective distress.
If being presented with objective facts and held accountable for your own words feels like being 'treated as a game,' the issue isn't my method—it’s your fragility when faced with the Truth.

I’m here for the Truth. You are here to be right. That’s why you lost this conversation.

remember you wanted this. If you want even more I can quote all your post and analyze deeply how you are being dishonest.

Rest easy.

-Giammarco
 
That is different than saying a male can have a female brain. After all, how on earth would that ever happen? What would be the cause for a male to have a female brain?
Obviously, brains do not have a sex, although the nature of brains vary within, and across, the sexes.

How might that happen? Referencing a post I made earlier about what determines sex, one of the tripartite determinants are hormones. This is almost certainly the mechanism of action, inasmuch research on maternal hormonal levels has demonstrated and proven a wide range of effects, including brain development, genital development, sexual orientation, and so on.

Here’s some anecdata for you. I have had fMRI scans done, primarily to study my response to methamphetamine hydrochloride, but also to study my response to various novel stimuli, some sexual in nature, while under the influence of methamphetamine hydrochloride, versus my baseline before administration of medication. The basis of inquiry was the combination of my ADHD and my cognitive style.

On a sex-determinant spectrum, my brain is ambiguous, inasmuch as my brain regions demonstrate activity which are typically mutually exclusive based on sex. From my scans alone, a clinician would not be able to definitively state my sex.

Now just joking around, psychometric testing online often returns results saying I have a female brain—some of those can be found on this forum.

I’m male. I know for certain I have XY pairing—clinically tested. I have normative male physical development. Beyond those things, nothing is guaranteed to be one way or the other.

My 2¢,
Ian
 
It is not political at all. Its necessary medical care for those with gender dysphoria. Bigots are the ones who make it political and go against what medical organizations have to say about it and turn it into a political issue.

If they would leave us alone, this would just be a regular health issue like any other health issue, but they are intent on denying us care in order to kill as many of us as they can manage.

It's a mental problem, which means it needs to be addressed mentally, not physically. There is plenty of scientific evidence that transitioning (especially surgery) is problematic on many fronts. In fact, many girls who get top surgery when they are young end up growing out of their gender dysphoria by the time they hit 18. Then, there is permanent damage to the girl, and she regrets the decision to have her breasts removed. There are many stories like this. Not to mention the actual article that I posted in the OP. You simply deny the article based on some misuse of the genetic fallacy.
 
Fruit, let’s be clear: this isn’t a 'game.' It’s an autopsy of a failed argument.

what is the argument that failed?

we are discussing many arguments

You claim to care about logic and reality, yet you just admitted to avoiding direct questions because you fear they make you 'look stupid.' That is the literal definition of Intellectual Dishonesty. A person who seeks the Truth doesn't care about looking stupid; they only care about being correct. You, instead, prioritize your image over the facts.

No, you were trying to trap me and would not explain why.

I gave a good response to what i believe the person in the video was saying and you ignored it defaulting to a yes/no trap question.

You call my logic 'garbage,' yet it’s the only thing that forced you to face a clinical reality (the Doctor/DSM-V) that you tried to bypass with pseudoscientific rants about malnutrition and 'feelings.'

No, you just do not understand what i was saying and making it personal.

If you do not care about truth then yes you will avoid my questions and I have to assume its because you care little about my true opinions.

You spent pages using 'science' as a weapon against Quick, but the moment that same science validated a frame you dislike, you retreated into: -|_Attacking the field of Psychiatry.-|-Claiming to be a victim of a 'trap.'-|- Appealing to your own subjective distress.
If being presented with objective facts and held accountable for your own words feels like being 'treated as a game,' the issue isn't my method—it’s your fragility when faced with the Truth.

No, I said nothing about science being perfect. I said it has problems.

I never appealed to my subjective distress you are trying to trap me because you don't care about listening to others.

I’m here for the Truth. You are here to be right. That’s why you lost this conversation.

remember you wanted this. If you want even more I can quote all your post and analyze deeply how you are being dishonest.

Rest easy.

-Giammarco

Just stop attacking my charracter ands we will be fine.

You are making it personal so you are the real problem in the discussion.
 
what is the argument that failed?

we are discussing many arguments



No, you were trying to trap me and would not explain why.

I gave a good response to what i believe the person in the video was saying and you ignored it defaulting to a yes/no trap question.



No, you just do not understand what i was saying and making it personal.

If you do not care about truth then yes you will avoid my questions and I have to assume its because you care little about my true opinions.



No, I said nothing about science being perfect. I said it has problems.

I never appealed to my subjective distress you are trying to trap me because you don't care about listening to others.



Just stop attacking my charracter ands we will be fine.

You are making it personal so you are the real problem in the discussion.
You used 'science' to patronize Quick, but when I brought a real Doctor and the DSM-V to the table, you called it 'garbage logic' and hid behind your 'feelings.'

You claim I am the problem because I make it 'personal.' No, Fruit. It became personal the moment you tried to gaslight this community with pseudoscientific rants while being too afraid to stand by your own words.

I’m not attacking your character. I’m shining a light on its absence.

The autopsy is over. There is nothing left to discuss with someone who is more afraid of a 'Yes or No' than they are of being wrong.

Enjoy the silence. I’m done with you

Your own words on this thread sound as statement of veteran user, maybe from an other server?

-Giammarco
 
Not sure what I am supposed to be agreeing or disagreeing with in that video?

She lists "symptoms" then says how they are treated (surgery, affirmation/acceptance of the person)

So maybe you could say the distress is the illness but she does not state any actual causes.

Not stating actual causes is my whole problem with psychiatry.

But the distress is real.

I have seen that most mental illnesses are actually because of malnutrition and or dieses in the body/brain we label as mental illness.

Only recently have doctors for example been able to find actual links between biological functions in Alzheimer's and working treatments.

Many treatments for Alzheimer's cost little money and not billions on a single medication so they are not funded as much.

@Akar

What is wrong with what I said here?

Why do not not care about others opinions?

You used 'science' to patronize Quick, but when I brought a real Doctor and the DSM-V to the table, you called it 'garbage logic' and hid behind your 'feelings.'

Your logic that I am a bad person is shit,

This is not about the DSM-V that was another discussion

You claim I am the problem because I make it 'personal.' No, Fruit. It became personal the moment you tried to gaslight this community with pseudoscientific rants while being too afraid to stand by your own words.

Where?

yes / no shit is a trap

I’m not attacking your character. I’m shining a light on its absence.

just stop and think

what are you trying to say about me?

The autopsy is over. There is nothing left to discuss with someone who is more afraid of a 'Yes or No' than they are of being wrong.

Enjoy the silence. I’m done with you

Your own words on this thread sound as statement of veteran user, maybe from an other blog ?

-Giammarco

again why are you against looking at what I said about the video?
 
@Akar

What is wrong with what I said here?

Why do not not care about others opinions?



Your logic that I am a bad person is shit,

This is not about the DSM-V that was another discussion



Where?

yes / no shit is a trap



just stop and think

what are you trying to say about me?



again why are you against looking at what I said about the video?
look at the mirror and tell me what you see.
cause want you don't tell speaks louder than your words.
You didn't answer a single question.

Like why did you target Quick?
why on a server you're an INTJ (maybe) and why here you're a INFP ? CURIOSITY


-Giammarco

-Giammarco
 
look at the mirror and tell me what you see.
cause want you don't tell speaks louder than your words.
You didn't answer a single question.

Like why did you target Quick?

-Giammarco

Ask me a genuine question and I will answer it but please do not assume my motives.
 
It's a mental problem, which means it needs to be addressed mentally, not physically. There is plenty of scientific evidence that transitioning (especially surgery) is problematic on many fronts. In fact, many girls who get top surgery when they are young end up growing out of their gender dysphoria by the time they hit 18. Then, there is permanent damage to the girl, and she regrets the decision to have her breasts removed. There are many stories like this. Not to mention the actual article that I posted in the OP. You simply deny the article based on some misuse of the genetic fallacy.
100 percent, well said.

Not only that, but calling self elected self mutilation "necessary medical treatment" is tantamount to lunacy. Refusing to perform medieval mutilation on patients in order to reinforce their dysmorphic disorder sounds pretty sane, in the end.

There are multitudes of stories of men who transitioned medically and ended up in excruciating permanent pain - with infections and an 'opening' that the body sees as a huge wound that it seals shut as a part of the natural healing process God endowed us to have.

Refusing such procedures, is in fact reducing their risk of death, not an attempt to "kill off" anyone.

The increase in depression for such patients would be salt in the wound, indeed. Then to emerge from the surgery, still unable to carry a child, have a period, or experience the emotional breadth of what it means to be a girl, then a woman. And of course, the same goes for a woman attempting to transition to a man, no?

This is what the article in the OP exposes. It does not statistically end up well for the majority - post op.
 
If you truly want to know why i got angry at quick twist it is because I failed to think clearlly in the moment because of all the pentagrams.

They were very scary.
LOL. .

Do you understand that your manipulative nature was just exposed to the whole forum?You signed up for two different sites but came here just to target Quick. Isn't that odd?I know who you are and I know what you are.You can't lie to me.

-Giammmarco
 
LOL. .

Do you understand that your manipulative nature was just exposed to the whole forum?You signed up for two different sites but came here just to target Quick. Isn't that odd?I know who you are and I know what you are.You can't lie to me.

-Giammmarco

The topic is about gender dysphoria and no I was not targeting him. I have different views than him and tried to explain them.

I was agnry about such and such things we both resolved earlier in this thread so I am not angry at him.

I am sorry you did not accept my answer to the video I gave you. Yes was the final answer but I am not sure its final, science is never settled.
 
The topic is about gender dysphoria and no I was not targeting him. I have different views than him and tried to explain them.

I was agnry about such and such things we both resolved earlier in this thread so I am not angry at him.

I am sorry you did not accept my answer to the video I gave you. Yes was the final answer but I am not sure its final, science is never settled.
The fact that you feel the need to justify your history and your presence here only confirms what is already obvious: the mask has slipped.
You can hide behind the 'science is never settled' cliché, but your intellectual inconsistency on this thread is settled for everyone to see. You tried to use science as a pedestal to look down on others, only to discard it the moment it didn't serve your ego. That isn't 'debate'; it’s manipulation.
I don’t need to 'accept' your answers. Your own desperate attempts to backpedal and your admission of avoiding direct questions have already done the work for me. You can try to play the 'victim of a trap' or the 'misunderstood analyst,' but I see right through the act.
I know who you are. I know your nature. And now, this forum does too.
Enjoy the silence. I’m done for real this time.


-Giammarco
 
The fact that you feel the need to justify your history and your presence here only confirms what is already obvious: the mask has slipped.
You can hide behind the 'science is never settled' cliché, but your intellectual inconsistency on this thread is settled for everyone to see. You tried to use science as a pedestal to look down on others, only to discard it the moment it didn't serve your ego. That isn't 'debate'; it’s manipulation.
I don’t need to 'accept' your answers. Your own desperate attempts to backpedal and your admission of avoiding direct questions have already done the work for me. You can try to play the 'victim of a trap' or the 'misunderstood analyst,' but I see right through the act.
I know who you are. I know your nature. And now, this forum does too.
Enjoy the silence. I’m done for real this time.


-Giammarco

You can question my motives but that changes little about what they atually are.

The only person now who has problems with eachother is you and me.

Science does have its place and I was just trying to show where that place is.

I was not using it as a weapon thats in your imagination because its a complex topic.

So yes you can think what you want, hate me if you like. That changes nothing of the truth of who I am or what happened here.
 
I think looking at what happened that the topic of gender dysphoria made many people angry.

Whatever people think of me, or who they think I am, I was not intending any harm to anyone its just a bad topic to discus objectively because its just hard to talk about objectively.

I do not like manipulation so I fall for it many times and why I did not like how some people were doing it to me or each other and that's all.

I cannot guaranty that others will believe me but I do happen to know that if people fail to listen they attack you in such ways people here have attacked each other. I am sorry if I did so to those I did but I hate it to be manipulated into answering questions I should not be forced to answer.

I am simply sorry and will not trouble anyone in this thread any longer because I do not wish to create any more conflict.

I have no ill will at anyone. Gender dysphoria is just to much polarized.
 
You can question my motives but that changes little about what they atually are.

The only person now who has problems with eachother is you and me.

Science does have its place and I was just trying to show where that place is.

I was not using it as a weapon thats in your imagination because its a complex topic.

So yes you can think what you want, hate me if you like. That changes nothing of the truth of who I am or what happened here.
Playing the 'peaceful' card now is just your latest strategy to evade accountability for the dishonesty I’ve exposed. You didn't stop because you found empathy; you stopped because your pseudo-logic was dismantled and you ran out of masks.
You claim I'm the only one with a problem, yet you're the one frantically trying to scrub the stains of your own dishonesty off this thread. Keep your 'complex' theories and your fake humility.
Your attempt to play the 'misunderstood peacemaker' is just the final stage of your manipulation. You didn't find peace; you found a wall you couldn't climb
I don't need to hate you; one does not hate a mathematical error, one simply corrects it and moves on. The autopsy of your ego is complete. You are now irrelevant to the Truth

-Giammarco
 
I think looking at what happened that the topic of gender dysphoria made many people angry.

Whatever people think of me, or who they think I am, I was not intending any harm to anyone its just a bad topic to discus objectively because its just hard to talk about objectively.

I do not like manipulation so I fall for it many times and why I did not like how some people were doing it to me or each other and that's all.

I cannot guaranty that others will believe me but I do happen to know that if people fail to listen they attack you in such ways people here have attacked each other. I am sorry if I did so to those I did but I hate it to be manipulated into answering questions I should not be forced to answer.

I am simply sorry and will not trouble anyone in this thread any longer because I do not wish to create any more conflict.

I have no ill will at anyone. Gender dysphoria is just to much polarized.
Looool
Loooool
You see I’m correct lol


-Giammarco
 
I've been tied up a lot the last couple of weeks so haven't been around much. Here's my take on this topic though.

It seems to me that there are several aspects that get tangled up on a subject like this one:
  • One of these is the ethical validity of gender change.
  • Another is the practicalities.
  • A third is the personal impact.
  • A fourth is the social consequences.
The first may have no time dependencies other than the fluctuating debates about right and wrong. The others are all time dependent in the sense that what is possible or OK or wanted may well change over time.

It seems to me that when these issues remain tangled, any debate about them just slips and glides about between them without any convergence towards a consensus, because the ground is not stable on which the discussion takes place. My personal views on these are fluid, I must admit, and I think that, for me, this is the right place to be. Partly this is because I'm not an expert in much of it, and I'm on a learning curve. Partly it's because this seems to me to be true about society as a whole too. A dash of humility would not go amiss for me before I run up a flag on the judging function flagpoles.

I'm not at all clear what the ethical position should be. I'm a Christian, and as has been pointed out there are scriptural references that are suggestive, but the situation and the capabilities we have now were inconceivable, and were not considered, at the time the Bible, the Koran and many other sacred texts were written down. What's more, there are things that were proscribed in the Bible, for example, that are no longer proscribed to Christians today - usuary for example, and a whole range of what was previously thought of as unclean foods such as pork. St Paul put a lot of effort and personal risk into challenging Jewish Old Testament Law obligations in terms of their applicability to Gentile Christian converts, and won that debate. That's not just something for 2,000 years ago but a process that must continue as we develop capabilities that were unthought of when the scriptures were written.

The second and the third perspectives are closely related. The basic situation as far as I understand it is where we have someone who was born with a particular genetic sex, but has the mind and mental outlook of the opposite sex. Perhaps it isn't always as black and white as that, so there will be folks who are somewhere in between. Whatever, the consequences can be very considerable mental and emotional stress, maybe an intolerable identity problem, and a desperate need to rectify things if possible. There are clearly two possible lines of resolution - one is for someone with this problem to become reconciled to the sex they were born with, and the other is to change their physical form to be congruent with the gender of their mental outlook. These are not symmetric possibilities - the first requires significant wise and compassionate support if it is pursued, the second requires similar support but carries a very considerable degree of physical risk because the medical interventions seem to be problematic and the end point is a compromise. Neither of these options is risk free - it's just that the risks are different and neither can guarantee success. Perhaps what makes the situation very complicated is that there will be folks who present with this problem but it is a symptom of something else rather than because it is at the root of their mental state.

This I'm sure is just scratching the surface of these two perspectives, but it seems clear to me that they have nothing to do with the ethics of sex change. There are ethics involved, but they are the similar considerations as those around any life-changing medical and psychiatric interventions, particularly if it concerns children and teenagers. The medical interventions are to a significant degree irreversible, at least at present - it takes the judgement of Solomon to choose wisely for a 15-year old,say, who may change their mind at 21. Yet is that any more challenging than not helping someone through a physical gender change when they are young enough to carry it through and who then regrets that just as much at 21? I only thank goodness that I don't have responsibility for advising anyone about such a change, and we should not forget the serious obligations we place on such professionals.

I don't think the fourth perspective, the social consequences, are always dealt with calmly and rationally. The media tend to pick up on extreme examples of things going wrong and sensationalise them, but maybe those situations do lend themselves to point towards what safeguards should be in place. I came across an article recently about a woman and her 10 year-old daughter who went swimming and were in the collective female changing room at their local swimming baths. Two trans women came in and stripped off among the women in there - the woman's daughter was horrified, embarrassed and frightened about being naked in front of what looked like two men and her mother was frightened and furious. They dare not use that facility again as a result. Of course this is exceptional, but it does highlight that we need to have social rules that find the right balance between folks so that fear, shame and anger don't become the dominant factors on how this plays out and gets resolved. I think it's reasonable to expect it will take a generation to evolve such rules.

On a broader note, it's fun to play with some thought experiments. Suppose that we had red and blue pills that changed our physical sex to female and male respectively, with no adverse physical or psychological consequences? It wouldn't be a real physical change but you would find yourself for a time in your chosen gender in a Matrix-like virtual world analogue. I remember once having a dream where I was a young mother fleeing from danger with my three children, and we were hiding in a very beautiful Central American country - it's the only time I dreamt like that, but it was fascinating. I guess many folks would like to try the other side. Mind you, I have to laugh a little at the emotional energy that goes into the real life discussions about this topic, because they seem to be very narrow sighted - I mean would I want to swap the problems of being an old man for those of an old woman, or vice versa? It adds a whole extra dimension to the thing lol .....
 
It's a mental problem, which means it needs to be addressed mentally, not physically. There is plenty of scientific evidence that transitioning (especially surgery) is problematic on many fronts. In fact, many girls who get top surgery when they are young end up growing out of their gender dysphoria by the time they hit 18. Then, there is permanent damage to the girl, and she regrets the decision to have her breasts removed. There are many stories like this. Not to mention the actual article that I posted in the OP. You simply deny the article based on some misuse of the genetic fallacy.

I know you're probably not interested in arguing about this in good faith, but for anyone else reading, the science is very much on the side of allowing for gender affirming care:




















 
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