What's going on with him?

Sloe Djinn · Feb 17, 2019

Lyric said:
Also, he has said that he believes that I don't ever see him as annoying like how he has been viewing me which seemed kind of odd as well. It's like he hopes or wants me to feel the same way about him or something.

I'm going to see him again in a couple of days. I'm going to ask him why he would say those types of things to me and why he would set me apart from all the other clients and his wife that he sees as annoying. And, I'm going to ask him if he is consciously or subconsciously copying my words and actions (trying to be like me). It's one thing to be fully aware of copying someone, which wouldn't be a big problem in therapy because therapists do that to build rapport with clients. But, it would be another thing for him to not even be aware of doing that which would add to the other red flags.

Lol send him to us. We'll put him in check. Joking.
Yes, ask the questions, but I would still strongly consider changing therapists regardless. He's provided more than enough red flags to show that his motives are suspect. Considering what he has expressed about his perception of you (particularly what you just said in the quote above) it would be somewhat of a tall order to assume that he will

1) Acknowledge it
2) Not try to minimize it
3) Seek appropriate therapy or consultation to address it
4) Be able to return to objectively working with you

Again, seek your answers but I would recommend against continuing with him.

MoonFlier · Feb 17, 2019

Okay, see him if you must, but this sounds like you're encouraging trouble. Just saying.... trust those instincts.

Sloe Djinn · Feb 17, 2019

And you can be absolutely certain that if any colleagues or supervisors knew about this, they would be telling him "You need to refer this client to someone else or see somebody to address these feelings you're having".
It isn't ok and you shouldn't have to be at a point where you're wondering whether or not your therapist is going to get help with it. It's like having to worry about whether or not your heart surgeon is gonna lay off the booze because you lost waaay too much blood last time.

jn56uytrx · Feb 17, 2019

Lyric said:
I'm going to see him again in a couple of days. I'm going to ask him why he would say those types of things to me and why he would set me apart from all the other clients and his wife that he sees as annoying. And, I'm going to ask him if he is consciously or subconsciously copying my words and actions (trying to be like me). It's one thing to be fully aware of copying someone, which wouldn't be a big problem in therapy because therapists do that to build rapport with clients. But, it would be another thing for him to not even be aware of doing that which would add to the other red flags.

I'm glad you plan to have that conversation with him. As people here have mentioned, there is a lot that happens in therapy and transference (you projecting things on to him) and countertransference (he potentially projecting things on to you) are normal in therapy, given the nature of the work. A responsible therapist, in my opinion, would welcome the honesty from you about your experience so work could occur around what is happening on either side. I concur with the overwhelming perspective here, that if you continue to feel uncomfortable and it does not resolve, look elsewhere. It is not your job to figure out what's going on with him. If you feel like you are doing so, then energy is not being directed in the appropriate way for the therapy service you are seeking. Also, if you are genuinely concerned about his ability to maintain appropriate boundaries, as it seems you are, I encourage you to discuss this with others who may have oversight over him. Therapist is a challenging role and a very influential one. If he is struggling in a way that is negatively influencing you, he may be with others as well. He may need support to be able to continue to do his work responsibly. You deserve to be taken care of in your role, and it is his job to do so. If you feel you are caring for him, or wondering about his intentions with you, then you are not getting what you need. If it doesn't resolve with an open conversation with him, please know you have every right to seek care elsewhere. Even if he is a wonderful therapist and you just don't feel comfortable with him, it is OK to say, "this isn't working for me."

Cornerstone · Feb 17, 2019

Lyric said:
Yeah, I do seem pretty suspicious about that. I am sort of a sensitive type of person where I worry a lot about not wanting to hurt other people's feelings. I also apologize a lot, even over the smallest mistakes that I've made. But, I just think that all of us have positive and negative qualities to ourselves. At times, I've picked up on the feeling that I've might've annoyed him in the past. I know this because I used to say "I don't know" a lot as a response to his questions. At one point, he got irritated with me and whenever he gets irritated, the tone of his voice rises and changes to match that irritation. So, I told him about that time and for him to say that I have never been annoying makes me wonder if he even sees me as human. Because all of us humans have flaws, make mistakes, sin, etc. while also having these good qualities about us. It seems to me like he only sees one side of me (the good side) rather than the negative side which I've expressed in the past. He refuses to see that or admit it. To me, there's a lack of balance there.

Is he a Rogerian? Or an eclectic/integrative therapist?

It may be the case that there is some frustration at unconditional positive regard raising more suspicion in you when the intention is to create a safe space for expression because you do know. You either don't know that you know, or are trying to control his perception of you by self-censoring which defeats the point of therapy. Have you felt any attraction toward him, even though he is 'off-limits'?

In group therapy, he's the facilitator, right? So the attention of the group goes in his direction and, when you are sat next to him, your direction. Could there be a therapeutic reason, based on your conversations, why he might want to expose you to that? Are you very vocal in group sessions or do you try and hide away? Is a willingness to be a wallflower in any way related to problems you've discussed with him?

If you are concerned with being perceived as annoying generally, is that a concern you have about intimate relationships? If so, mentioning that his wife annoys him sometimes is not necessarily an indication that he is suggesting you two elope, but rather reassurance that yes, you probably will irritate your significant other from time to time.

It's possible this guy is actually not doing anything too horrendous but it's difficult to know with such little information.

acd · Feb 17, 2019

The focus should be on your therapy. Not on him. Not on his feelings about you. That is not fair to you at all. Sounds like he has very poor professional boundaries.

Sloe Djinn · Feb 17, 2019

Cornerstone said:
Is he a Rogerian? Or an eclectic/integrative therapist?

It may be the case that there is some frustration at unconditional positive regard raising more suspicion in you when the intention is to create a safe space for expression because you do know. You either don't know that you know, or are trying to control his perception of you by self-censoring which defeats the point of therapy. Have you felt any attraction toward him, even though he is 'off-limits'?

In group therapy, he's the facilitator, right? So the attention of the group goes in his direction and, when you are sat next to him, your direction. Could there be a therapeutic reason, based on your conversations, why he might want to expose you to that? Are you very vocal in group sessions or do you try and hide away? Is a willingness to be a wallflower in any way related to problems you've discussed with him?

If you are concerned with being perceived as annoying generally, is that a concern you have about intimate relationships? If so, mentioning that his wife annoys him sometimes is not necessarily an indication that he is suggesting you two elope, but rather reassurance that yes, you probably will irritate your significant other from time to time.

It's possible this guy is actually not doing anything too horrendous but it's difficult to know with such little information.

NO CONNERSTUNZ WE KNOW HIM! DOUBLE CASTRATION!!!!!

acd · Feb 17, 2019

Cornerstone said:
Is he a Rogerian? Or an eclectic/integrative therapist?

It may be the case that there is some frustration at unconditional positive regard raising more suspicion in you when the intention is to create a safe space for expression because you do know. You either don't know that you know, or are trying to control his perception of you by self-censoring which defeats the point of therapy. Have you felt any attraction toward him, even though he is 'off-limits'?

In group therapy, he's the facilitator, right? So the attention of the group goes in his direction and, when you are sat next to him, your direction. Could there be a therapeutic reason, based on your conversations, why he might want to expose you to that? Are you very vocal in group sessions or do you try and hide away? Is a willingness to be a wallflower in any way related to problems you've discussed with him?

If you are concerned with being perceived as annoying generally, is that a concern you have about intimate relationships? If so, mentioning that his wife annoys him sometimes is not necessarily an indication that he is suggesting you two elope, but rather reassurance that yes, you probably will irritate your significant other from time to time.

It's possible this guy is actually not doing anything too horrendous but it's difficult to know with such little information.

It's his responsibility to know that and to not confuse OP with it.

Cornerstone · Feb 17, 2019

Sloe Djinn said:
NO CONNERSTUNZ WE KNOW HIM! DOUBLE CASTRATION!!!!!

I had to quote this as I've overused the like button to the point it doesn't mean anything

acd said:
It's his responsibility to know that and to not confuse OP with it.

Which part? If it's the first part, I agree with you. With the rest, I'm not so sure. You don't say how a trick work while you're doing it, or have a director's commentary on the main feature so it's on the first time you watch a film. And you should be confused in therapy, because you're moving between states of being which is an inherently destabilising process. What you do need is to have a foundation which is stable enough to be able to proceed to shake the structure.

EDIT: that's not quite right. You need to believe they have a stable foundation from which they can act in your best interests. If the client did, they wouldn't have built a structure which is collapsing in the first place.

acd · Feb 17, 2019

Cornerstone said:
I had to quote this as I've overused the like button to the point it doesn't mean anything

Which part? If it's the first part, I agree with you. With the rest, I'm not so sure. You don't say how a trick work while you're doing it, or have a director's commentary on the main feature so it's on the first time you watch a film. And you should be confused in therapy, because you're moving between states of being which is an inherently destabilising process. What you do need is to have a foundation which is stable enough to be able to proceed to shake the structure.

Shouldn't the client/therapist relationship be neutral or solid ground though? Sure you may work through confusion in sessions but I question a therapist who blurs boundaries.

Sloe Djinn · Feb 17, 2019

Fair points on both sides. Some of the techniques may seem more malevolent when viewed out of context. However I can't see any justification for trash-talking other clients as annoying or complaining about the therapist's wife (unless we're talking some one-time Rodney Dangerfield quip). I wouldn't describe unconditional positive regard as insisting that she is not annoying. I see it as refraining from making any judgmental statements or sending any negative nonverbal cues in response to that. It would seem more appropriate to say "Let's explore that" or "So you see yourself as annoying. Tell me about that" as opposed to declaring "No, you're not annoying at all! Everyone else is annoying!" The personal space and staring in group are worrying to me. The hug with the changed voice and heavy breathing just makes my skin crawl.

Lyric · Feb 18, 2019

Deleted member 16771 said:
This, for me, is the hugest of huge red flags.

I need to talk in generalities here, because I'm protecting some confidentialities, but I've been aware of/dealt with a few cases of sexual harassment in the workplace in a professional capacity (as a trades union rep.), and I see this as a pattern.

The instances of harassment that came to us typically involved large power differentials (otherwise they would have gone to HR), and the thing you describe here was a pattern I saw: relatively more powerful men would disparage their wives to their objects of harassment, in attempt to build some kind of twisted intimacy. (Aside: I should also say that this happened to me also, where the gender roles were flipped, it's just that men don't typically report or recognise when they're being harassed or emotionally manipulated, and don't tend to feel as threatened (probably because they are in some sense physically immune), so I don't think the behaviours are particularly gendered).

I'm a heterosexual man, so I would never disparage my SO to another woman under any circumstances, because that undermines the privileged level of trust between partners. Let me be clear: it's infidelity. And so I must say that what you have described, in my experience, is not just 'creepy' and pathetic, but manipulative and predatory. Typically the disparaging starts out small, like in this case 'my wife/husband is annoying', then it escalates to the level of 'thank God I have someone like you to talk to about this', and soon enough you've got a pest.

You're so creeped out by this that you've posted about it on a forum; get another counsellor before this escalates, but also be aware that he has not yet committed any crime.

What if he says that she can be annoying at times and he thinks that he annoys her too with the things that he does, but then goes on to say good things about her as well? For instance, he's said to me that his wife sniffs constantly even when he tries to talk to her about this problem, she continues to do it. But then, he goes on to say that it's also kind of cute to him that she sniffs a lot.

Initially, the topic that had brought up the discussion about the annoyance situation was me sending out an email to him about leaving his group. He told me that he checks his emails at home and that he's okay with me messaging him in between sessions. I don't usually email him at all unless if I'm cancelling an appointment. In that case, that was one of the times. But throughout that whole time, I thought that I had done something wrong and that I had annoyed him with my messaging because he didn't reply back to me when usually he does so. As a result, I feel into a deeper depression and started engaging in self-destructive behaviors. I recognize that these thoughts and feelings are due to my own intense insecurities and from my negative past experiences. I had gone back for the next session and told him all that I had thought and done. I asked him why he didn't message me back. He told me that it was because he was busy with the things that were happening in his own life and didn't think to check his emails at the time. That was something that I figured, but decided to think of the worst case scenario instead by thinking that he hated me for annoying him with my messaging. Then, that was when this whole thing started with him saying that I'm never annoying and that everyone else was.

ClevelandINTP · Feb 20, 2019

Lots going on here. If you feel his behavior takes away from your care and health, just get a new therapist

I wouldn’t read into the “annoying” thing

ClevelandINTP · Feb 20, 2019

And see a woman this time

Infjente · Feb 20, 2019

I think it's a good thing that therapists has their own individual style, and don't get too tied down by the protocol, role expectations and so on.

Hugs are okay, as long as they are initiated by the patient themselves.

There's also a big difference in talking about one's personal life and one's private life as a therapist. I don't see anything wrong with him using his wife as an example of annoying people. It's not unusual that therapists use stories/examples from their personal life. It practical and sometimes with a therapeutic purpose. But if he for instance told you that he was thinking about leaving his wife because she's annoying, it would be to involve you in his private life, and that's not alright by any means.

I don't know if he's a horrible therapist or not, but if you feel uncomfortable, take it up with him. If it still feels weird after that, then see someone else.

wolly.green · Feb 22, 2019

Deleted member 16771 said:
This, for me, is the hugest of huge red flags.

I need to talk in generalities here, because I'm protecting some confidentialities, but I've been aware of/dealt with a few cases of sexual harassment in the workplace in a professional capacity (as a trades union rep.), and I see this as a pattern.

The instances of harassment that came to us typically involved large power differentials (otherwise they would have gone to HR), and the thing you describe here was a pattern I saw: relatively more powerful men would disparage their wives to their objects of harassment, in attempt to build some kind of twisted intimacy. (Aside: I should also say that this happened to me also, where the gender roles were flipped, it's just that men don't typically report or recognise when they're being harassed or emotionally manipulated, and don't tend to feel as threatened (probably because they are in some sense physically immune), so I don't think the behaviours are particularly gendered).

I'm a heterosexual man, so I would never disparage my SO to another woman under any circumstances, because that undermines the privileged level of trust between partners. Let me be clear: it's infidelity. And so I must say that what you have described, in my experience, is not just 'creepy' and pathetic, but manipulative and predatory. Typically the disparaging starts out small, like in this case 'my wife/husband is annoying', then it escalates to the level of 'thank God I have someone like you to talk to about this', and soon enough you've got a pest.

You're so creeped out by this that you've posted about it on a forum; get another counsellor before this escalates, but also be aware that he has not yet committed any crime.

This is really interesting. In your personal experience, why does this happen? My guess is the predator is trying to test how strong your boundaries are. He/she will try to share personal details about their lives. Usually highly sensitive details that would otherwise be inappropriate. If you allow him/her to do this without your permission, it's an indication that you probably won't fight back. And this indication is exploited by the predator to do progressively more extreme things without your permission. Is this correct?

Deleted member 16771 · Feb 22, 2019

wolly.green said:
This is really interesting. In your personal experience, why does this happen? My guess is the predator is trying to test how strong your boundaries are. He/she will try to share personal details about their lives. Usually highly sensitive details that would otherwise be inappropriate. If you allow him/her to do this without your permission, it's an indication that you probably won't fight back. And this indication is exploited by the predator to do progressively more extreme things without your permission. Is this correct?

Hi wolly, I think that's a great analysis.

Yeah I think that's what's going on, though I'm not sure that the predator themselves is consciously aware that this is what they're doing, but maybe they're getting what 'they want' at each stage of the interaction. They want access to the target and control over them in some way.

The scary thing, though, is that they do the same thing that non-predatory people do to build intimacy and trust: sharing weakness. With non-predatory people, it's about understanding and human bonding, but with predators it's access to something that they want to use. They seem to feed on the access if that makes sense.

Asa · Feb 22, 2019

Find a different therapist.
The resounding reply so many people in this thread have repeated is you need a new therapist. I agree.

There are two scenarios here:

1. He has poor boundaries and is acting unprofessional. From what you have told us, this appears to be the case.

2. You are perceiving his actions as a crossing of boundaries and what he is up to is actually part of your therapy. (As @Cornerstone suggested.)

Either way, he is a poor fit for you, and you need a different therapist. If you are at the point where you need to confront him, it has already gone too far.
As @ClevelandINTP suggested, try to choose a women for your new therapist.

The point of therapy is not to create more drama in your life, but to resolve the issues that caused you to seek therapy.

@JennyDaniella gives very good advice in this thread. As a psychology student, this is her arena.

I hope you find someone who is a good fit for you and helps you resolve the issues that caused you to seek therapy. You deserve that. Good luck! <3

Infjente · Feb 22, 2019

Cornerstone said:
Which part? If it's the first part, I agree with you. With the rest, I'm not so sure. You don't say how a trick work while you're doing it, or have a director's commentary on the main feature so it's on the first time you watch a film. And you should be confused in therapy, because you're moving between states of being which is an inherently destabilising process. What you do need is to have a foundation which is stable enough to be able to proceed to shake the structure.

EDIT: that's not quite right. You need to believe they have a stable foundation from which they can act in your best interests. If the client did, they wouldn't have built a structure which is collapsing in the first place.

This is such a good point! The most experienced psychologist I know once said to me that the most common mistake therapists make is wanting to be popular/praised - yarning to hear "you've been such a good help to me". If that happens, it's a good chance that the only thing that happened in therapy was supporting and reinforcing the patient's way of thinking/behavior that made him seek help in the first place. And you've got yourself a returning customer.

Asa · Feb 22, 2019

Infjente said:
This is such a good point! The most experienced psychologist I know once said to me that the most common mistake therapists make is wanting to be popular/praised - yarning to hear "you've been such a good help to me". If that happens, it's a good chance that the only thing that happened in therapy was supporting and reinforcing the patient's way of thinking/behavior that made him seek help in the first place. And you've got yourself a returning customer.

How interesting. I will remember that. Reminds me of how my favorite professor was the one least likely to praise our work and had no problem addressing our shortcomings. He praised us if we really earned it. We began with 30-32 people in the class and ended with only 5. Students quit because the professor wasn't nice enough. I learned so much from him and grew from his class.

What's going on with him?

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