INFJs and Enneagram

Wyote said:

A typical Wednesday afternoon in my mind sometimes, eh.
Comparisons make everything tricky. You gotta answer it for yourself :tiphat::tongue:

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For whatever it's worth and whatever it means, when I'm super stressed, I do my best not to show it, put a smile on my face, and swerve down silly/goofy lane. Jokes instead of tears, lol. Only occasionally letting out my fears and concerns, then immediately regretting it afterwards... so, whatever enneagram that is.

This discussion about stress/growth has been helpful though, and I think it's important for anyone to consider when looking into their enneagram. We all have our good, and bad moments (and all that fun stuff in-between).

Wyote said:

Twooooooo :blowraspberries::lmao::shrug:

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I DON’T KNOW WHAT MY ENNEAGRAM IS!

Happy Phantom said:

I DON’T KNOW WHAT MY ENNEAGRAM IS!

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SALTED CARAMEL PEPSI AGAIN??

Ginny said:

Since their direction of growth is 7, does this mean that indulgence is the way a growing one deals with feelings? It's basically the same thing, only instead of suppressing emotions, it is ignoring them by doing something else. How is that growth?

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Well I don't see disintegration/integration as saying you should basically become more like the other type outright, because then wouldn't you just be getting a new type/have all its problems?

Rather, it's a little more like the dynamic between superior and inferior functions if anything in mbti/jung.
The 7 is a kind of unacknowledged side of 1, some call it the 'soul child' though I prefer not getting too literal with that. A 7 has similar frustration-ish tendencies to the 1, but it is more indulgent than principled.
I think the idea is more like it helps round off the vice-like grip 1 has on you. Like a 7 says "I want something more ideal, because what if I miss out?" The 1 instead says "I want the ideal, because wait...it's not that I want it, it's that I HAVE to pursue it. There's no choice in the matter!"

But I think ultimately growth is more like transcending type than becoming more like the lower levels of one. It's similar in inferior function theory and stuff, where the goal isn't for Ni-doms to get all the bad tendencies of Se so much as to tap the unacknowledged Se to transcend the Ni/Se dichotomy that creates the type in the first place. That is, viewing it as a dichotomy is the source of having the type vs transcending it.

hush said:

but there are mixed thoughts about the validity of tritype

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Well, what about a sort of non-dogmatic just saying OK, some of each center can influence you, and since the 3 types in each center have conflicting strategies, one might influence you most?

I always found the completely anti-tritype people to be sort of religious-minded about it all being explained by lines of disintegration/integration. Similar to the people who SWEAR you can't have Ni and Ti at the top of your functions, with 0 explanation when Jung said otherwise, just because they've read the standard functions-stacking.

In particular, I see no reason to doubt tritype any more than to doubt the idea of having a single core type (and I mean that sincerely -- why assume that it's true? We can try it out and a useful rule of thumb and try to show how the philosophy of one center dominates that of another...but still, it's not set in stone). The latter is also controversial till proven, no? And all we have are rules of thumb and various philosophical considerations (and not even a single definition of what each type is).

Wyote said:

Twooooooo

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Yeah honestly seems like it; some 9s seem to also put on a smile and swallow the sadness, although honestly cumulatively stuff hush says always sounds more 2-ish by far than 9-ish.

hush said:

Is there some foolproof 2 vs. 5 test out there?

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Well there's sort of one main (at least) thing to consider -- 2s are hungry for validation, typically. like they cannot admit they need you, or it kills their image to you, and they'd like you to need them.

A 5 probably is going to be averse to the idea 2s have of getting validation from or needing to be useful to others. They would have an anxiety both ways -- they would reject the need to be needed, as it is itself a need. Their struggle is more with true chronic alienation.

If you have the need to be needed in some shape (eg feeling you need to make yourself useful to others maybe) but are not nearly as lovey dovey/validation-hungry as most 'stereotypical' 2s, perhaps it's something like a self-preservation 2 over a so-2.

If that mainly describes you but you relate to the chronic alienation thing too, might also be a 2 with 5 auxiliary.

Or could be core 5 if you just sort of find yourself gravitating to being completely cut off except in a joking sense from others. Not even being needed by others.

charlatan said:

Well there's sort of one main (at least) thing to consider -- 2s are hungry for validation, typically. like they cannot admit they need you, or it kills their image to you, and they'd like you to need them.

A 5 probably is going to be averse to the idea 2s have of getting validation from or needing to be useful to others. They would have an anxiety both ways -- they would reject the need to be needed, as it is itself a need. Their struggle is more with true chronic alienation.

If you have the need to be needed in some shape (eg feeling you need to make yourself useful to others maybe) but are not nearly as lovey dovey/validation-hungry as most 'stereotypical' 2s, perhaps it's something like a self-preservation 2 over a so-2.

If that mainly describes you but you relate to the chronic alienation thing too, might also be a 2 with 5 auxiliary.

Or could be core 5 if you just sort of find yourself gravitating to being completely cut off except in a joking sense from others. Not even being needed by others.

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I am sp, not so, that I do know for sure.

I get uncomfortable letting people get too close, so there's always a sort of "wall" there. Being an independent person, and highly valuing that independence, that whole being needed thing doesn't wholly resonate with me (might even call it an aversion). I'm always happy to help, but there isn't really a need there, just a, well... "We're all in this together, so we might as well help each other" sort of deal. Not just with me, but I value seeing other people helping people, extending that helping hand. Gives me warm fuzzies.

TL;DR - There is a strong desire to help, but I'm not sure if it's a need.

{I enjoy these discussions, and hope they help (hehe) elucidate the subtleties between different enneagrams for others, as well}

hush said:

I am sp, not so, that I do know for sure.

I get uncomfortable letting people get too close, so there's always a sort of "wall" there. Being an independent person, and highly valuing that independence, that whole being needed thing doesn't wholly resonate with me (might even call it an aversion). I'm always happy to help

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Well that doesn't seem too core 2-ish then! I'm happy to help, too, in the same sense you say, but it's mostly just wanting a just world/not wanting to see people suffer for no reason.

Perhaps you really are more of a head type. A sort of fundamental anxiety about letting people in, or having them cage you is very head type-ish. For instance, I'd type Audrey Hepburn's character from Breakfast at Tiffany's as some kind of head type.

It's probably some combo of 6/7 in her case, because it's all about not being caged. I also type Nolan's Joker as a sorta 7w6 with a cp aggressive 6 wing, it sort of hit me at one point that he's not really 7w8-ish (compare Moriarty from BBC Sherlock who is 7w8 -- much more driven by pure desire). It's not so much the directly gluttonous aspect of 7 as the part that rebels against constraint...it's not like these types crave anything in particular, they just want to be left to chase after whatever. Kind of random even. Like Audrey's character Holly always says she doesn't really know who she is/what she wants, and the Joker even says "I'm like a dog chasing cars...I wouldn't know what to do with one (a car) if I caught one!"


So yeah in your case, it's less about being a free spirit without rules so much as having boundaries, so maybe 5w6 or 6w5 core with some 2 in there somewhere secon or third place.

charlatan said:

So yeah in your case, it's less about being a free spirit without rules so much as having boundaries, so maybe 5w6 or 6w5 core with some 2 in there somewhere secon or third place.

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This suddenly triggered a memory out of nowhere, lol (my brain is turning to mush as the years progress):

charlatan said:

What hush said sounded 6w5-ish, but some of this 4w5 friend's stuff occurred to me, so it's possible 5w6 would work -- I obviously have just seen a snippet

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From this this thread:

https://www.infjs.com/threads/6w5.32731/

Well... I think that might cement it.

I'd totally forgotten about that thread (late 2016-early 2017 was a crap time for me), but the same conclusions seemed to be drawn.

Thank you, as always, for being so knowledgeable and thorough. I love reading your contributions in typology/enneagram threads. : )

That thread is a nice, useful discussion for anyone, INFJ or otherwise, considering 5w6/6w5, btw. Threads get so buried here.

hush said:

I'd totally forgotten about that thread (late 2016-early 2017 was a crap time for me), but the same conclusions seemed to be drawn.

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Yup!

Thank you, as always, for being so knowledgeable and thorough. I love reading your contributions in typology/enneagram threads. : )

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Aww thanks! I'm always more confident of the theory than typing people and kind of scared to do it... probably why I'm still not settled on my own enneagram, though it's getting closer I think.

Also, all this discussion just again highlights why I never thought of myself as a 5. I'm not even a little bit the type to push people away. If anything, the way I am is kind of idealistic about never needing boundaries, but then people find out it's because I don't believe 2 people ever need to disagree, because if you keep analyzing it, questioning yourself, and so on, eventually it's gotten rid of.
And usually this kind of wears people out/strikes people as overbearing. So I kind of end up alienated, but not because I put up boundaries myself so much as I'm so uncompromising that it's a little much for people.

Just to write a little more -- I think part of the reason I find this philosophy easy is I usually stick to very basic beliefs. Like that I probably don't want people to suffer, and I don't want to (indeed, can't even) believe contradictions. Beyond that, I sort of view everything up for question, up for the guillotine, and this tends to strike people who aren't as simple as me as a little scary lol. but....it's natural to me because I sort of go...how can you be so sure of anything else anyway? Better to travel light, ya know? Everything else needs to be deduced from simple starting points. Complex reasoning, simple, relatively uncontroversial premises.

Now y'alls make me think again. What if I have been interpreting this all wrong? What am I then? I am 90% sure about the 1, but the others?

charlatan said:

I'm always more confident of the theory than typing people and kind of scared to do it... probably why I'm still not settled on my own enneagram, though it's getting closer I think.

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What MBTI type do you identify most with, by the way? I'm assuming you're not displaying it for a reason, but I'm curious.

Thanks for the great insights anyway. Similarly to @Ginny I'm back to being pretty uncertain about my Enneagram type.

hush said:

SALTED CARAMEL PEPSI AGAIN??

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Unfortunately no. They stopped selling it. Why would they do that?!

I’ll attempt to take the enneagram test again and report back.

Happy Phantom said:

Unfortunately no. They stopped selling it. Why would they do that?!

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I have an I idea, but you might not like it.