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Zoroastrianism

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by dragulagu, May 7, 2019.

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  1. dragulagu

    dragulagu Truth does not change because it is, or is not. 42

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    Does anyone have knowledge about this religion? (I've seen some random threads that mentioned it). Stumbled across it and it seems pretty interesting as it influenced modern monotheistic religions and is still existing as a religion on its own. It seems to be pretty interpretative though in regards to its substance (it's a bit hard to figure out).

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zoroastrianism
     
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  2. Wyote

    Wyote Con Risa Absoluta
    Staff Member Administrator

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    Hell yeah, it's one of the most gangster religions
     
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  3. Hostarius

    Hostarius Scooby Doo Villain of Fate

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    Not anything you couldn't find out on Wikipedia. Why the interest, man?
     
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    dragulagu

    dragulagu Truth does not change because it is, or is not. 42

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    It being one of the oldest and originating religions, I recalled that Judaism, Christianity and Muslim beliefs all have similar originating points. So this one
    sparked my interest as Brittanica is stating it might be one of these. How I came to it...no idea. Random brainfart.
    Also Nietzsche I guess, as the names really ringed a bell lol.
     
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  5. Hostarius

    Hostarius Scooby Doo Villain of Fate

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    There's an interesting causal question there...

    Are the Abrahamic religions descendants of Zoroastrianism? (memetic argument)

    OR

    As Ernst Renan claimed, is the desert monotheistic? (environmental determinist argument)
     
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  6. OP
    dragulagu

    dragulagu Truth does not change because it is, or is not. 42

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    Hmm, that's a good question.

    In regards to Islam, I've seen an interesting documentary once (I'll try to find it) in regards to the origin of the Black stone that is inside the Kaaba (the Monument at the center of Mekka),
    I remember vaguely that what's inside originated from hinduism and was a symbol of fertility (if I look around it seems this is in discussion in different places, but unproven?).
    https://islamreview.com/kaaba-kaba-kaaba-kabah/

    Some trivia: https://muslimmatters.org/2012/11/15/ten-things-you-didnt-know-about-the-kaaba/

    Ancient religion is interesting in general in my opinion. And as I see it, the Abrahamic religions are an evolution from a mix of ancient tribal stories and rules of conduct,
    which then have been written down as a set of religious "laws" to which a population needs to adhere to. So I'd think the desert became monotheistic AND had heavy influence from
    Zoroastrianism as one of the ancient tribal sources (as I do recognise similarities between these religions).

    (usual Disclaimer: I'm by any means no expert in this, just my take on the topic)
     
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  7. neko

    neko poopie head

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    Yesssss, I love Zoroastrianism.
    “Good thoughts, good words, good deeds.”
     
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  8. Ifur

    Ifur Community Member

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    http://www.avesta.org/gathas.htm

    This guy?

    There are lots of things ascribed to him, among other things the concept of the "infinite ladder" for example:
    So there is a concept here that lends itself to induction, namely, "the basic/first/fundamental" that goes towards infinity.

    This is another one of these things from a a dead language, culture and customs where it is easy to get lost. There is nothing here that support it has anything to do with monotheistic religions, as there is nothing here about the supernatural and power over creation or the physical world.

    So following the concept "Kine" around in the text:

    There looks to be poetic flare and distinction between the spiritual world and the physical world, as this is from the same hymn:

    So now we are in the realm of cosmology and the whole mess of the cosmic egg seen in many religions. And Kine is used in the context of the flesh and the physical soul, so in the neighborhood of there being such a thing as a physical soul and being, distinctly different from the inner fire of consciousness and the soul of the spiritual self.

    And then we have a few chapters deep within the text where one wants to ask for sources, as it doesn't seem to be written by the same person or with the same philosophy:


    The important thing here is however good thought and actions leading to a better world and infinity, and knowledge and questions concerning what this is in an existence of life and death where some ideas and thoughts are immortal and infinite. As with many religions there are aspects of survivalist approach and a bowing down to more absolutist and unquestioning religions and their approaches. Avestan is however a dead language now, and these texts carry the name Avesta.

    However, if we interpret Zoroaster as something more equivalent to Hercules or Thor, it becomes a larger coherent system of thought with philosophy and theory of mind. So to speak with wisdom, one listens to the senses and respect both mind and body, etc...

    Thus Spoke Zarathustra

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Also_sprach_Zarathustra

    This makes me so happy!

    The German "Thurs" had an identity crisis and spoke about himself in a different language and system of thought, so he decided to express it in THONAR!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thurisaz
    /θ/, /ð/ ?*þurisaz "the god Thor, giant"

    The oddities of language and mind.
     
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  9. Ifur

    Ifur Community Member

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    No, that has it's origins in Egyptian monotheistic cults, for everything else you can blame dishonest librarians, burning of books and the Alexandria for causing a mess of things.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten

    Where the actual "meat" of Egyptian thoughts that glued things together at least up until:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_creation_myths

    After Old Kingdom the religious thought and philosophy seemed to have become fractured, leading to self imploding civilisation with Caesar like all-powerful leaders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer_Palette

    Here we have some pretty hardcore philosophy of mind in picture form.
    Yeah, don't read the silly academic speculation, if that is a depiction of a political unification of two larger geographic regions under a common and shared system of governance, the guy making the palette may have suffered from Downs.

    A more reasonable interpretation is that the bird of the lefts side, pulling the metaphorical "red thread" out of the nose, is done by "horus" the bird/senses, so the thread is actually the front pole and therefore pictorially the same as the "inner eye" or red dot in forehead used in India. So this represent the "eye of horus".

    Prior to a civilisation becoming advanced, many of these things show themselves it seems, where the coolest, "this makes me so happy/sad" is that of:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_syllabary#Early_history

    So it's possible that Narmer/Menes created a standard for hieroglyphs and hieratic along with a philosophy of mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieratic

    All of these developments seem to be the parts that form a transition from Naqdah III to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Dynastic_Period_(Egypt) or the first 500 years prior to Old Kingdom and the beginning of pyramids.
     
    #9 Ifur, Jun 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
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  10. Skarekrow

    Skarekrow ~~DEVIL~~

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    Just in case you wanted to join...
    "Note that Zoroastrianism is ethno-religious in nature so to be considered a Zoroastrian you have to be born into the religion and/or be from an Iranic ethnic group. The latter condition is somewhat moot in general because you can only be born into a Zoroastrian family if you're either Iranian or Parsi."
     
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  11. OP
    dragulagu

    dragulagu Truth does not change because it is, or is not. 42

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    @Ifur this will take a bit of time for me to go through everything, but it's very appreciated for the depth you went into the topic, man. I'll do some effort as well in understanding it!

    Nah, just curious :yum:
     
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  12. Hostarius

    Hostarius Scooby Doo Villain of Fate

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    Oh, thanks :neutral:

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Ifur

    Ifur Community Member

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    Glad you did that, much of my reasoning were assuming an opposite premise and therefore arguing Egyptian history in reverse order as much as possible.

    After my reasoning, and tirade on the topic; this becomes ahuge puzzle:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad_(Egyptian)

    The references go back to old kingdom, and we don't have anything better than the palette to go on.

    But there is Ra and Nu,which in cosmology can be the yellow sun and the black sun (blac khole), which is why sky and water is relevant.

    So I've been thinking about Narmer Palette being proof of him being the greatest genius that ever lived for some time, and that it's pretty much true. An act of god what he did 5300 years ago given how primitive it may have been. ( one phonetic alphabet, one symbolic and perhaps the most coherent metaphysics and complete philosophy of mind the world had ever seen).

    To argue what I mean here, Horus, how this was pronounced is up for an argument. But it certainly was not very far removed from the german Herr, or, Horw, which is curious, as phonetically when you understanding nothing, you would say "hae" and the central figure was called Menes, or meaning, and then follows on with "nah-mer". Good guess is that the majority of languages after his time being able to do puns just as brutal as this. And first pharaoh of egypt being, Hor-Aha -- you kidding me?
     
    #13 Ifur, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
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  14. OP
    dragulagu

    dragulagu Truth does not change because it is, or is not. 42

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    Ok @Ifur so I'll be checking everything in steps for Zoroastrianism.

    Starting off with the infinite ladder, found this article: https://authenticgathazoroastrianism.org/2010/06/26/conceptions-of-the-world/

    But according to vedanta the exterior expression of the universe has become distorted, ignorant, perverted and obscure. The right thing to do is to become conscious of the inner Divine, the inner knowledge, the inner beauty, harmony and greatness and remain fixed in that inner knowledge and beauty, consciousness and bliss without troubling about the world of phenomenas.

    For this external world of appearances CAN NOT change and will always be in its natural state of unconsciousness and distortion.[/QUOTE]

    So there seems to be some kind of general alignment with these other religions, if i'm correct? More of a symbolic pathway/means of becoming better. Eg. following the path of <...> to enlightenment from mortal human to a higher ascendant.

    Also on the whole Cosmic Egg principe, if I recall correctly Hinduism is covering that heavily in the form of cycles of rebirth?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/beliefs/moksha.shtml
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saṃsāra

    Did not expect the Abrahamic religions originating from Egyptian monotheism (let alone that Egyptian monotheism existed, surprised).

    But that seems to lean more towards a mythical approach (eg. written text covering a personification of specific traits, eg. strength/power/... for Hercules/Thor).

    It's a lot to take in, trying to put Zoroastrianism somewhere on a spot between all religions.[/QUOTE]
     
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  15. Ifur

    Ifur Community Member

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    How come? Might even be a bit far fetched, but the truly amazing historic curiosity is actually:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greece
    "Archaic Greece was the period in Greek history lasting from the eighth century BC to the second Persian invasion of Greece in 480 BC,[1] following the Greek Dark Ages and succeeded by the Classical period. During this period, Greeks settled across the Mediterranean and Black sea, as far as Marseilles in the west and Trapezus (Trebizond) in the east; and by the end of the archaic period were part of a trade network which spanned the entire Mediterranean."

    "
    Early Demotic (often referred to by the German term Frühdemotisch) developed in Lower Egypt during the later part of the Twenty-fifth Dynasty, particularly found on steles from the Serapeum at Saqqara. It is generally dated between 650 and 400 BCE, as most texts written in Early Demotic are dated to the Twenty-sixth Dynasty and the subsequent rule as a satrapy of the Achaemenid Empire, which was known as the Twenty-seventh Dynasty. After the reunification of Egypt under Psamtik I, Demotic replaced Abnormal Hieratic in Upper Egypt, particularly during the reign of Amasis II, when it became the official administrative and legal script. During this period, Demotic was used only for administrative, legal, and commercial texts, while hieroglyphs and hieratic were reserved for religious texts and literature.
    "

    So how old is the hieratic script? (phonetic used by scholars).
    "Hieratic developed as a cursive form of hieroglyphic script in the Naqada III period, roughly 3200–3000 BCE."

    It becomes quickly controversial with larger philosophical shifts and mixing of languages and religious systems.

    And there are many references to both Eliopolis and Alexandria from many perspectives:
    "
    During the Amarna Period of Dynasty XVIII, Pharaoh Akhenaten introduced a kind of henotheistic worship of Aten, the deified solar disc. As part of his construction projects, he built a Heliopolitan temple named "Elevating Aten" (Wṯs I͗tn or Wetjes Atum), whose stones can still be seen in some of the gates of Cairo's medieval city wall. The cult of the Mnevis bull, another embodiment of the Sun, had its altar here as well. Their personal formal burial ground was situated north of the city.

    The store-city Pithom is mentioned once in the Hebrew Bible (Exodus 1:11), and according to one theory, this was Heliopolis.
    "

    Notice we have Akhenaten again here, and something about a bull diety/idol as competition to sun worship.

    Right, and how different are Hercules and the 12 challenges that much different from the moral hero jesus and his 12 discipilines, can one say the structure is simmilar?
    Father, son and the holy ghost. Odin, Thor and Baldur. And the oldest systems that follows this pattern is from Naqdah III together with hieratic script.
    Only problem seems to be when physics gets mixed in under the delusion of improving or simplifying things.
    This being said, there are very few systems that are rather universal, where each one seem to focus on one or the other and have aspects of the rest.
    In Norse mythos, trinity seems to be clearly defined where the sun chariot is in focus. This has comparison to dragon kring from China.
    So by entertaining the idea of being Thor or the Dragon King playfully, there is alot of engangement to he bad that is better than cowboys and indians.
    Greek and Roman in particular is perhaps especially messy as trying to deal with all of it at the same time.

    Psychology is important in philosophy and literature when it comes to entertainment and culture especially.
    So getting one thing psychologically extremely right works also extremely well.
    Thalamus, corpus callosum, pons.
    frontal lobes, cerebrum, parietal lobes.
    temporal lobes, cerebellum, frontal pole.

    Anyways, natural language isn't an exact science, but no denying adherence to biological and cognitive processes.
    12+1 6+1 2+1 8+2

    "don't personify too much!", "don't idolize!" are common cries from dying civilisations and cultures for having too many assburgers trying to make it real or enforced literally.

    This is a perfectly valid propositions and reasoning. :)
     
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  16. OP
    dragulagu

    dragulagu Truth does not change because it is, or is not. 42

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    Well the classic tale of Moses etc. I would think that Abrahamic religion would've been a new branch on its own, coming from a new settlement, not persé derived from an already existing Egyptian monotheistic religion. I always thought Egyptian religion was completely polytheistic, did not know a monotheistic branch existed, interesting.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion

    During the New Kingdom the pharaoh Akhenaten abolished the official worship of other gods in favor of the sun-disk Aten. This is often seen as the first instance of true monotheism in history, although the details of Atenist theology are still unclear and the suggestion that it was monotheistic is disputed. The exclusion of all but one god from worship was a radical departure from Egyptian tradition and some see Akhenaten as a practitioner of monolatry rather than monotheism,[36][37] as he did not actively deny the existence of other gods; he simply refrained from worshipping any but the Aten. Under Akhenaten's successors Egypt reverted to its traditional religion, and Akhenaten himself came to be reviled as a heretic.[38][39]

    Never ever heard/seen of this before, reading on it, fascinating!

    Well, as these archetypical personifications like Hercules pronounce specific (positive) traits of a human being, while someone like Jesus / Ahura Mazda is more of a personification of "all good traits", it is a more absolute path. Interesting correlation by the way, but it could be coincidental, or perhaps inspired by said religions. Thor et. all I would place in the same Category as other Ancient polytheistic families of Gods which rule / oversee over humans.

    +1, indeed, there will be a lot of influences and similarities. Indeed @ Greek/Roman

    :D I guess so
     
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  17. Ifur

    Ifur Community Member

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    "The Book of Genesis, chapters 25–50, tells the story of Jacob and his twelve sons, who left Canaan during a severe famine and settled in Goshen of northern Egypt. ..... After some 400 years of slavery, YHWH, the God of Israel, sent the Hebrew prophet Moses of the tribe of Levi to release the Israelites from bondage. ........ According to the Bible, after their emancipation from Egyptian slavery, the people of Israel wandered around and lived in the Sinai desert for a span of forty years before conquering Canaan in 1400 BCE under the command of Joshua. While living in the desert, according to the Biblical writings, the nation of Israel received the. ... After entering Canaan, portions of the land were given to each of the twelve tribes of Israel."

    So this would be several hundred years after monotheistic cults had become mainstain in the most important trading centre in the world at that time, namely Egypt.

    "However, archaeology reveals a different story of the origins of the Jewish people: they did not necessarily leave the Levant. The archaeological evidence of the largely indigenous origins of Israel in Canaan, not Egypt, is "overwhelming" and leaves "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness"."

    Right, but we do have this repetition of twelve sons, twelve disciplines and twelve chllenges of Heracles, we also have the branc of Islam called twelvers, so these structures must have an emotional appeal.

    So there seems to be a few primary systems that are very appealing, where you have an idol/person and his twelve something. Or you have 6 spirits and their human consort, and lastly a trinity of some kind for body mind and identity.
    We have many of these things in MBTI now, especially core self, true self and aspirational self or something like that. Also, if you di deeper into Hinudism, you will find all of these movements with a small subset of gods, or angels, or saints or discipines or whatnot.
     
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  18. Ifur

    Ifur Community Member

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    Actually, even in Norse mythology and all others there is a seperation between the heros and the wise.
    Perhaps not as commonly know, but the practice of Norse mythos fall into three camps.
    Those that worshipped the Vanir gods, and then we have Thor and Odin split as well.

    [​IMG]


    Zoroaster sound like a Odin(ahura mazda) as chief with Thor as hero type type paganism.
    Or Horus and Osiris / or Seth and however one would translate / transcribe this mess.
    In many cases one can see Heracles as a Thor cult that is largely mono.
    Christian polytheism combined with the angel structure is much worse to deal with as it s a mix of so much.

    The germanic "go(u)d" or "gott", "goods" is pretty darn close to Latin if one just say "gods".
    As it's always Deus, and rarely Dei, not a ancient latin / roman / greek grammar expert however.
    It's not like a doctoral thesis is one idea or lacks second person and identity of a words with properties.

    What's extremely interesting is that this distrbution also correlate with ancient tribes and DNA haplogroups.

    So with a theiry saying that personality traits are inheritable, we can sum up human history as a disagreement for what name is best for a cognitive function where different languages have different preferences. And a desire to couple metaphysics and cosmology into their arguments to win the conflict, convince and scare people.

    This way it's also fun to play with this like Jung did, so we can go Vanir / Aesir as F and T.
    Jesus / Zeus / Odin as the reflective senses (this may be a missing distinction on the Sensory type scale. Where Judah and Thor is kind of heros or misguided mentors and meddlers ultimately forgiven -- just now thought of Jesus / Zeus as something perhaps not that different phonetically -- still very difficult and have spent more time with Norse as that also has Elder Futhark quite coherent.

    Executive function as Tyr, left fronal lobe as Freki, right frontal as Greki, left sensory cortex as loki, right censory cortex as idunn. With Thor as the wolves and hammer, unless Tyr(tiwaz(R?) actually) is in charge and it's ulfberat or some such. Then we have the problem of somatosensory and visual thinking, but these parts kind of overlap fairly well with "Vanir" where the region the map today is referred to as the bible belt, as that system may work better there, not sure. "Vanir won", yeah, this is actually quite funny with a few strong simmilarities as starting points.

    Gospel of Matthew in a complete or compiled from is 4th century btw, where much research goes into finding the "original source". Which has to be true, because it came from the cosmos by celestial or "heavenly" beings. This kind of literal interpretation and thinking are also a system for mental disorders ranging from schizophrenia to autisme, unless one stick with the script.

    This is priceless:
    https://www.uni-muenster.de/INTF/Genealogical_method.html

    Sorry for so many edits! But, yes, there is quite a lot of zorostranism all over the place actually.
    Not sure how it relates to the Bactrian culture as it's nearby-ish where both Buddhism and Zoroastranism was practiced prior to Islan in the Bactrian civilisation, and there is credited with introducing Buddhism to China were also perhaps other Greek ideas were introducing leading to the 100 schools of thoughts era.

    I digress from this mess.

    There is no such thing as christian religions being the same across languages and cultures.
     
    #18 Ifur, Jun 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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  19. OP
    dragulagu

    dragulagu Truth does not change because it is, or is not. 42

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    I wonder...is there a correlation with these and the origin of division of time? 12 hours, 12 months.

    The 12-hour clock can be traced back as far as Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt.[4] Both an Egyptian sundial for daytime use[5] and an Egyptian water clock for night-time use were found in the tomb of Pharaoh Amenhotep I.[6] Dating to c. 1500 BC, these clocks divided their respective times of use into 12 hours each.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock

    The ancient Sumerian calendar divided a year into 12 lunar months of 29 or 30 days.[7] Each month began with the sighting of a new moon. Sumerian months had no uniform name throughout Sumer because of the religious diversity.[8]This resulted in scribes and scholars referring to them as "the first month", "the fifth month" etc.[citation needed] To keep the lunar year of 354 days in step with the solar year of 365.242 days an extra month was added periodically, much like a Gregorian leap year.[8] There were no weeks in the Sumerian calendar.[9] Holy days and time off from work were usually celebrated on the first, seventh and fifteenth of each month. In addition to these holy days, there were also feast days which varied from city to city.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_calendars

    Very interesting detail.

    Interesting....I also do recall from reading up on hinduism that works with great cycles of birth/rebirth/destruction. Reminds me a bit of Tree of life and Valhalla with the Norse. True in regards to small subset of gods / saints. They do indeed have these movements.
    https://www.learnreligions.com/the-four-yugas-or-epochs-1770051

    VERY interesting, I did not know that all.

    In regards to Jung, he originally did derive his personalities from archetypes, but these were not based on Gods, but rather on ancient mythos where he derived specific trait sets from these and put them in a set of archetypes.

    Interestingly so...there are 12 of them: http://www.soulcraft.co/essays/the_12_common_archetypes.html
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/67890.The_Archetypes_and_the_Collective_Unconscious

    Jungs well taught sex theories are about more than just characters. He argued that story patterns are also encoded in the human brain, and that is why similar patterns are found in mythologies around the world. For example, the myth of the Egyptian god Osiris involves his death, mourning, and seasonal rebirth every year. Similar patterns have been seen in the Babylonian god Tammuz, Greek Adonis, Heracles, Persephone, Jesus, Attis, and others.

    An etiological explanation for these similarities would point to the phenomenon of the annual cycle of the seasons. Nature has a cycle of death and rebirth, and these myths explain this natural phenomenon. For Jungians, these stories express the death-rebirth archetype, encoded in human minds before birth. Different Jungian scholars might apply different understandings of these archetypes, for example they may claim that this archetype is a “symbolic expression of a process taking place not in the world but in the mind. That process is the return of the ego to the unconscious—a kind of temporary death of the ego—and its re-emergence, or rebirth, from the unconscious”

    https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Classical_Mythology/Jungian_psychology
     
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  20. Ifur

    Ifur Community Member

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    Tree of life and Valhalla etc doesn't have to do with cosmology directly.
    Based on what I've worked out, there are a few double meanings.
    Like Mulspel being fire and light, in addition to mulspelheim being "where thos red headed live".
    With perhaps some steretypic about red haired people.
    Moon in Old Norse is closer to Mahne, which is more like Aether.
    Sol that sounds closer to "Soul" is the sun, while there are are poetic forms being Sunna.
    Now we can discuss Ginnu, or, gap ga Ginnunga (the gaping void).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trundholm_sun_chariot

    https://norse-mythology.org/sol-mani/

    What I wanted to comment was that 12 isn't used often, as it doesn't form much of a useful story, so in the parts other things are there.
    Where 8 is the most common, like Draupnir and Sleipnir.

    Square numbers are nice however, and works better for geoemtry.
    If you want to deal with spheres and consider angels and geomtry to be superior, you are going to struggle more with base 10.
    Might as well use an 18 hour clock, but with 12 you have 24 for a full day, 6 and 3 -- what to do, what to do.... To get sun dials to be easy to work.
     
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