Will capitalism have its waterloo?

[Lark]

1989 and a lot of events leading up to it are commonly and in most ideological circles considered to have been communism's waterloo moment, most of its followers where more or less prepared to ditch it by then, even the super realpolitik fans of so called "actual existing socialism", and the left has had Orwell and many other internal critics who have respected truth more than the party line.

My question is do you think that a similiar process will EVER happen to the opposite end of the political spectrum?

 

[muir]

Communism was never acheived; the workers never gained control of the means of production

Equally many pro-capitalists will argue that what we have now is not true capitalism due to the influence of the government and central banks; for example when the banks failed they were not allowed to go bust they were balied out; this has lead some commentators to say that the banksters capitalised their profits and socialised their loses

But in leymans speak what has been done is clearly a giant con game against the people

 

[Lark]

Communism was never acheived; the workers never gained control of the means of production

Equally many pro-capitalists will argue that what we have now is not true capitalism due to the influence of the government and central banks; for example when the banks failed they were not allowed to go bust they were balied out; this has lead some commentators to say that the banksters capitalised their profits and socialised their loses

But in leymans speak what has been done is clearly a giant con game against the people

I think that political managerialism, city hacks and the legacies are all in cahoots against everyone else, sure, but the appeal of capitalism, whether its the badly understood and frequently a thinly vailed moralism of the working poor or the higher minded technical and theoretical sort of economic columnists, is undeniable.

When people scoff at the socialists or alternatives to capitalism, simplistic or complex as they may be, ultimately its just because its become unbelieveable. Without much reflection or thinking people will dismiss any alternative, its accepted as a sort of truism to the point that most people dont know the content of any of the alternatives and dont want to. I wonder when capitalism will ever have its day in that sense, you know?

That's not to say that capitalism as "the best of all possible worlds" or "the least worst of all possible worlds" would carry on but that's a different matter to what is promoted as a social good to everyone.

 

[muir]

I think that political managerialism, city hacks and the legacies are all in cahoots against everyone else, sure, but the appeal of capitalism, whether its the badly understood and frequently a thinly vailed moralism of the working poor or the higher minded technical and theoretical sort of economic columnists, is undeniable.

When people scoff at the socialists or alternatives to capitalism, simplistic or complex as they may be, ultimately its just because its become unbelieveable. Without much reflection or thinking people will dismiss any alternative, its accepted as a sort of truism to the point that most people dont know the content of any of the alternatives and dont want to. I wonder when capitalism will ever have its day in that sense, you know?

That's not to say that capitalism as "the best of all possible worlds" or "the least worst of all possible worlds" would carry on but that's a different matter to what is promoted as a social good to everyone.

I think people have been conditioned by the education system and by the mainstream corporate media to scoff at alternatives

This tactic can clearly be seen in clips on youtube where the corporatocracy sought to subtly undermine Ron Paul during his presidential bid. The media talking heads kept repeating to people that Ron paul was 'unelectable'

The majority of people are not seeing reality as it actually is and are not consciously seeing that manipulation so they are in a programmable state of hypnosis; if they perceive uncritically that the mainstream corporate media is a safe and reliable source of information when they are told that someone is 'unelectable' they are taking that in on a conscious and an unconscious level

Another example of this process at work is the creation of the term 'conspiracy theorist' to be used as a pejorative to discredit anyone who questions the official version of events; this phrase was created by the CIA in the wake of the John F Kennedy assassination to try and make the public perceive anyone who questioned the 'magic bullet' threory as crazy.Of course it has been made public that the CIA has sought to control the mainstream media though 'Operation Mockingbird'

Antoher term they use is 'tin foil hat wearer' to make someone sound like a clown; this is how they get the herd to police itself

''None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free''- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Orwell warned us about what chomsky would call 'the abuse of language'. Orwell knew that language is a tool. if i want to crack a nut i can put it on a rock and smash another rock against it. If i want to tell you where i foudn the nut however that becomes diffcult without language of some sort. Just as the rocks are tools i am manipulating to produce a result the words i issue from my mouth to tell you that i found the nut by the hill are also tools i am manipulating to produce a result

If i swap the words and the rock around and try to break the nut with words and try to describe where I found the nut by handing you a rock then things aren't going to work so well; so to produce the best results we need to use the correct tools

This is why Orwell warned us about how language can be altered whether through its useage or how it is formed to then deprive us of the tools we need to communicate

The power of the people lies in their ability to coordinate their efforts and to do that they need language. So if their use of language is sabotaged their ability to coordinate and organise is curtailed

So to this end you will often hear terms being missused in the corporate media in order to destroy the consensus over the meaning of those terms. For example the word 'anarchy' is often incorrectly used to mean chaos and is often applied by talking heads on TV to refer to chaotic situations such as a coup or a riot instead of being used in its correct form to describe a system where power is exercised from the bottom of society upwards rather than from the top downwards

The terms 'communism' and 'capitalism' are constantly missused as well to the point that whenever i enter a discussion with people regarding these matters i usually have to first establish what these terms mean to gain consensus otherwise the situation becomes a confused mess

Most peoples perception of the meaning of these terms are a confused mess; this is because the el-ite are engineering ignorance. People often ask how come our western education system seems to be failing so many when so much money is pumped into it but they fail to realise that the education system is not designed to help clarity of thought it is simply designed to turn out repeaters who repeat what they are told

Getting back to the topic at hand...fukiyama arrogantly declared that the current form of capitalism was 'the end of history' but now with the disintegrating economy we can see he was (as i said years ago on this forum) WRONG

We are going to transition to something new. The vision of that new world that the el-ite have is one of greater central control and less democracy. The vision i and many others have is one of more de-centralised control and more democracy. The struggle is now on to see which vision will win out

I am confident that when people fully understand this struggle and all its implications that they will see the sense of decentralising power. We don't need everyone to agree with this and indeed they won't because many of the el-ite are utterly possessed by the spirit of inequality but we do need enough people to see whats going on

 

[Lark]

We are going to transition to something new. The vision of that new world that the el-ite have is one of greater central control and less democracy. The vision i and many others have is one of more de-centralised control and more democracy. The struggle is now on to see which vision will win out

I am confident that when people fully understand this struggle and all its implications that they will see the sense of decentralising power. We don't need everyone to agree with this and indeed they won't because many of the el-ite are utterly possessed by the spirit of inequality but we do need enough people to see whats going on

I dont really see how support for Ron Paul marries with that but sure OK.

 

[muir]

I dont really see how support for Ron Paul marries with that but sure OK.

I'm not a ron paul supporter i was just using that as an example of how the system manipulates people sperceptions

 

[Cornerstone]

I doubt it. Unless material wealth comes to be seen as a poor substitute for inner wealth.
Those at the top are too far gone. They might trade material wealth for explicit power and influence but little else I would imagine.
I can see it transforming into ultra-fascism but...no...I think it will be the final 'official' form of society.
People will have to rule themselves with this beast lurking there and build their own institutions informally so as not to break any of its laws.

Eep!

But also: this

[video=youtube;SY7XxgxGx8M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY7XxgxGx8M[/video]

 

[Skarekrow]

 

[Skarekrow]

[h=1]COLLAPSE OF CAPITALISM: THE 9 PLAGUES[/h]

Let me be blunt: The collapse of capitalism is approaching.
Or, perhaps better said: Our marginally capitalist, partly-free market systems are approaching a massive collapse.
Not because of what capitalism is, mind you, but because the powers that be have bastardized it.
Capitalism can bear many distortions and abuses, but it is not indestructible.
And, make no mistake, the ‘capitalist’ system we have today has been massively corrupted, so much so that it’s sagging under the load… and will continue to do so until the proverbial straw breaks its back.
[h=2]Collapse of Capitalism: The 9 Plagues[/h]

1. The average producer is being stripped bare. In the US, for example, the total take of taxes has not risen dramatically, but fewer and fewer people actually pay them. There was a big uproar during the last election cycle over the fact that 47% of working-aged Americans paid no income tax. That means that the half who do work (read suckers) are paying the whole. And more than that, they are also paying for the many millions who are on food stamps and disability. Producers are being punished and abused, made into chumps.
   
2. Thrift is essentially impossible. I’ve explained this in detail previously, but a hundred years ago, it was possible for an average person to accumulate money. Mechanics, carpenters, and shop owners slowly filled their bank accounts with gold and silver. It was common for them to make business loans and to retire comfortably. But now, all of our surplus is drained away to capital cities, where it is poured down the drains of welfare, warfare, and political lunacy. Money has been removed from the hands that made it, and moved into the hands of non-producers, liars, and destroyers.
3. In 2008, US federal government regulations cost an estimated $1.75 trillion, an amount equal to 14 percent of US national income. Let me restate: Simply complying with regulations costs American businesses more than $1,750,000,000,000 (that’s $1.75 Trillion) every year. This, again, is money taken out of production and wasted on political lunacy.
4. Small businesses are being squeezed out. Take a look at the two graphs below, and understand that as small businesses are squeezed out, only the large corporations remain. These days, only the largest and best-connected entities are able to get their concerns dealt with (by the politicians they fund). Small operations are cut off from the redress of their grievances and are crushed by taxes and regulation. And don’t forget the comments of Mussolini:
   
   Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power.
   ​
   While there may be no dictator, state/corporate partnerships are taking over commerce in the West.
   
   

   
   

   

   ​
5. The military industrial complex is out of control. Their lobbying, fear-mongering, and spending can only be characterized as obscene. Dwight Eisenhower was right when he warned us about this in 1960. It is sad beyond measure that so few Americans took him seriously. Trillions of dollars and millions of productive lives are being spent on the war machines of the West. Never forget that wars destroy massively and produce nothing.
6. All the Western nations now feature large enforcer classes, composed of bureaucrats, law enforcement units, inspectors, and so on. In the US alone this amounts to several million people – none of whom produce anything, and all of whom restrain producers from producing. Millions of people are paid to restrain commerce.
7. We now have a very largefinancial class in which blindly aggressive people make millions of dollars. The problem is that finance is not productive. It may allocate money in beneficial ways (though it often allocates mainly to itself), but it doesn’t actually produce anything. At present, the allocators get the big bucks, and the producers get scraps.
8. The modern business ethic has become about acquisition only. In more enlightened times, it was also about creating benefit in the world, or at least creating newer and better things. Mere grasping is an insufficient philosophy for capitalism; it leads to dark places.
9. Every nation on the planet is using play money and forcing their inhabitants to use their play money. Moreover, they have super-empowered a small class of Central Banking Elites, who make fortunes on their currency monopolies, and who are entirely unknown to the producers who unwillingly (and unknowingly) purchase jets and yachts for them. Our money systems have brought back aristocracies; a class that is both hidden and immensely powerful.

I think the point about the collapse of capitalism has been made with these nine points: The West has built a hyper-political culture built on lies, misdirection, fear, avarice, envy, and sloth. (Avarice, by the way, is a mindless craving for gain.)
[h=2]So What’s Next?[/h]That’s up to the producers. Everything hinges upon them. The game, as it is, depends entirely on them being willing to accept abuse.
All that is necessary to fix this is for the producers to stop being willing victims. Simple, I know, but there is a problem with such a sensible idea:

The producers are convinced that their role in life is only to struggle and obey.
​

Modern producers believe that the ruling classes have a legitimate right to tell them how much of their money they are entitled to keep, which charity causes they’ll be forced to contribute to, which features their car is required to have, and much, much more. Why? Simply because those other people are in “high positions,” and they (the producers) are in “low positions.” An evil assumption has been planted in their minds:

It is right for important people to order me around.
​

The productive class holds all the real power, but they are nearly devoid of moral confidence. So, they are abused without end.
Right now, a parasitic ethic rules the West and will continue to rule so long as producers play the part of the suckers. If this continues, what remains of capitalism will grind to a halt and will be overrun by a Neo-Fascist arrangement – not the dictator and swastika variety – but one where the state and powerful business interests merge into one unstoppable and insatiable force.
On the other hand, if ever the producers wake up from their moral coma and reject the role of doormat, they will build a society embodying the ethics of production. It almost sounds impossible, I know. But it is has happened before and could happen again.
It’s up to us.

 

[Lark]

I'm not a ron paul supporter i was just using that as an example of how the system manipulates people sperceptions

I think its a sort of reverse psychology in that case to be honest, complain loudly about the candidate they'd not mind in public office.

Ron Paul's policies would probably strengthen the hand of finance and corporate interests more than anything in human history.

 

[muir]

I think its a sort of reverse psychology in that case to be honest, complain loudly about the candidate they'd not mind in public office.

Ron Paul's policies would probably strengthen the hand of finance and corporate interests more than anything in human history.

I agree that i don't think they are that afraid of libertarians

As the holders of the wealth they would surely take advantage of a lack of government to take over by force and then they would need to create a government to protect themselves!

The people they are truely afraid of are the anarchist communists because they would not only remove the government but also money which is what gives the el-ite their power

That said they still don't want to see Ron paul in power because that would then put new steps into the equation on their march to a new world order; as things stand they see themselves as only one or two steps away now

They have created state capitalism and from there it is one easy step to state socialism

Or to put it another way they have created monopoly capitalism and they want to go the whole hog and remove any chance of competition by creating a planned economy that they would run

 

[Lark]

I agree that i don't think they are that afraid of libertarians

As the holders of the wealth they would surely take advantage of a lack of government to take over by force and then they would need to create a government to protect themselves!

The people they are truely afraid of are the anarchist communists because they would not only remove the government but also money which is what gives the el-ite their power

That said they still don't want to see Ron paul in power because that would then put new steps into the equation on their march to a new world order; as things stand they see themselves as only one or two steps away now

They have created state capitalism and from there it is one easy step to state socialism

Or to put it another way they have created monopoly capitalism and they want to go the whole hog and remove any chance of competition by creating a planned economy that they would run

What you're talking about is fascism not socialism, not even state socialism, which if you mean the USSR is really a misnomer for socialism at all. In the same way that Russia wanted to exploit the idea of a "war on terror" before the US stole that particular march.

To be honest most libertarians, certainly capitalist ones, dont really want to abolish or mitigate or limit authority or statism, they just want to privatise it. Which is a really different thing. Of course monopolists are going to favour the supposed competition of free markets, they're going to win, freedom for the pike is certain death for the minow.

 

[muir]

What you're talking about is fascism not socialism, not even state socialism, which if you mean the USSR is really a misnomer for socialism at all. In the same way that Russia wanted to exploit the idea of a "war on terror" before the US stole that particular march.

To be honest most libertarians, certainly capitalist ones, dont really want to abolish or mitigate or limit authority or statism, they just want to privatise it. Which is a really different thing. Of course monopolists are going to favour the supposed competition of free markets, they're going to win, freedom for the pike is certain death for the minow.

Yeah i'd call them fascists

I don't think the right wing libertarians are on the right track

The pikes are making their move to take complete control of the pond; the question is to what extent are the other pikes and the minows going to allow that to happen?

 

[Lark]

Yeah i'd call them fascists

I don't think the right wing libertarians are on the right track

The pikes are making their move to take complete control of the pond; the question is to what extent are the other pikes and the minows going to allow that to happen?

At this point I tend to think how prepared people are or how can they be prepared for the triumph and consolidation of their power rather than the possibility of their challenge or defeat to be honest. Perhaps I'm cynical. I really do wonder what becomes of the elite when its ascendency is sure and things are done, maybe entropy will finish them off and maybe not.

I tend to agree with Marx and Orwell, short term pessimism and long term optimism, the joke is on Big Brother, all he can create is broken men and women, the standards of society, for everyone, ruler and ruled alike, does and will closely reflect that, ie everyone will be shite like Winston Smith's Victory cigarettes and Victory Gin.

 

[muir]

At this point I tend to think how prepared people are or how can they be prepared for the triumph and consolidation of their power rather than the possibility of their challenge or defeat to be honest. Perhaps I'm cynical. I really do wonder what becomes of the elite when its ascendency is sure and things are done, maybe entropy will finish them off and maybe not.

I tend to agree with Marx and Orwell, short term pessimism and long term optimism, the joke is on Big Brother, all he can create is broken men and women, the standards of society, for everyone, ruler and ruled alike, does and will closely reflect that, ie everyone will be shite like Winston Smith's Victory cigarettes and Victory Gin.

It would be a pyrrhic victory

They are so engrossed in their ego games that they are building a hell for themselves and others

I still think the people can turn the tide