Were nations better off communist rather than capitalist? | Page 5 | INFJ Forum

Were nations better off communist rather than capitalist?

Discussion in 'News and Politics' started by The_Mysterious_Stranger, Jan 13, 2020.

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  1. Professor Snep

    Professor Snep Smart. Sexy. Snep.

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  2. In the Wings

    In the Wings Community Member

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    I feel like there are so many different ways to do both systems, and circumstances both systems exist in, that the answer is kinda pointless.
     
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  3. Vendrah

    Vendrah Regular Poster

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    What some may not realize is that the "power corrupts" goes for capitalism as well (not discussing if "power corrupts" is always but admiting as if it is mostly correct).
    At the same time that there are powerful dictators with powerful families, there are powerful superrich companies, superrich individuals and their families.
    A place where the wealth is very concentrated, where the income is centralized in just a few hands, have less freedom, more crime and more corruption. This is not theorical, but rather statistical...

    Gini (inequalty index):
    [​IMG]

    Corruption perception index:

    [​IMG]

    International Homicide (the darker blue, the higher):

    [​IMG]

    Press Freedom Index:

    [​IMG]


    There are some exceptions like countries in North Africa, but all these things are connected somehow although I dont know which causes which. Admiting that power corrupts, which I have some doubt on that phrase, the highest the Gini, the more concentrated the income is, there is more concentration of power in a few hands, lending to corruption and ultimately leading to less freedom. However I do believe that concentration of power is sometimes a natural event in the course of increasing corruption, rather than a cause, depending on other condition (this analysis can get quite complicated). The exceptions of India and north Africa are the reasons I believe that.

    In the end of the day, there are connections between these powerful people...
    Stalin and Czars werent much different, they were all totalitarians in some sort of form. Czars and some quite bad kings over middle age are connected the same way.
    In countries where the superrich are the most powerful in comparison to general population (that goes for a higher Gini), there are less freedom, which make them "more totalitarian". In the end, the super rich guys are connected and are pretty much the same as powerful communist partys. Latin America followes pretty much this pattern, with dictatorship coming and going, besides being capitalist or communist, pretty much corruption and a lot of superrichs that concentrates a lot of power.
    So in the end, Stalin and his family and 'pals', Czars and their "nobles", hyper-rich people, its pretty much the same pattern.

    It is quite funny that people who defend the super and hyper rich as an opposal to communist think (or better, pretend, I believe most are truly aware) that, because most communist regimes are totalitarians, they are defending freedom and are being "libertarian", when they are actually supporting totalitarism in a different form.
     
  4. John K

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    Yes, I agree with much of what you say. What I would disagree with would be that capitalism is necessarily a disguised form of totalitarianism, though I don't think you are saying that are you? Essentially the difference is between ways of changing a government, and democracy, when performing ok, is the best way we have got of doing that via peaceful, safe and non-disruptive paths. Now that doesn't mean that democracies always keep the capitalist plutocrats in check of course, and these guys can operate over a number of different sovereign states in order to maintain their power. It's open to voters to put in place governments that will control them - it's like the military which in a dangerous world is a necessary evil. Capitalism and the military are great servants and foul masters. My feeling is that If capitalism gets out of control in a modern democracy it's not because there is something wrong with the system - the fault lies with the social culture that has produced a nation of voters who don't exercise their democratic rights and obligations effectively. That's quite different to places in the world where the people have no choice in the government and the economic barons in favour with the local regime can do what the hell they like and enforce it.
     
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  5. Vendrah

    Vendrah Regular Poster

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    Yep, capitalism doesnt have to be a disguised form of totalitarianism (sorry for mispelling the word, english is not my first language and I didnt finished the english course). However, a capitalism that gives rooms for lots of concentration of wealth wont have much freedom. A society that worships these plutocrats, gives them everything they want (the greedy will always complain and wont be satistifed even if they have 13313283089301289x times more wealth and power than the average), wont have much freedom.

    I believe that there is more than just exercising democratic rights and obligations effectively, but, even that is somewhat connected. There is no index on which citizens actually exercises obligations effectively, but there is one related to democracy: Democracy index. Follows pretty much the same pattern of the other graph (and India appears as the most relevant exception again, so most stuff I say isnt of much value for India).

    [​IMG]

    There are a lot of connections, rooting causes is somewhat complicated but what you said is a possible cause (inside a list with a variety of possible causes).
     
  6. mintoots

    mintoots Also: Tooth, 뚵수, Tootsu

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  7. larry806q

    larry806q Regular Poster

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    And at least in theory for the same money.
     
  8. larry806q

    larry806q Regular Poster

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    You haven't seen the pictures of the bread lines in Russia in the '60's? EVERYTHING was scarce.
     
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