Were nations better off communist rather than capitalist? | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Were nations better off communist rather than capitalist?

Discussion in 'News and Politics' started by The_Mysterious_Stranger, Jan 13, 2020.

Share This Page

Watchers:
This thread is being watched by 15 users.
More threads by The_Mysterious_Stranger
  1. Rit4lin

    Rit4lin Community Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Threads:
    2
    Messages:
    493
    Featured Threads:
    2
    Likes Received:
    4,662
    Trophy Points:
    1,202
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    MBTI:
    INxx
    uz0s3h7ylei11.jpgnmbflhkitfi11.jpg

     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Reason, John K and Ren like this.
  2. philostam

    philostam Community Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2019
    Threads:
    3
    Messages:
    862
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    3,585
    Trophy Points:
    992
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INTP
    Enneagram:
    539
    Great question.

    The answer is obviously no - however, I don't think that communist states should even attempt this. There shouldn't be some powerful computer that could help them improve their centrally planned decision making.

    But I cannot answer more at this point. What do you/others think?
     
    John K and Rit4lin like this.
  3. Lady Jolanda

    Lady Jolanda Anti-glitch Bitch
    Staff Member Tech Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2017
    Threads:
    37
    Messages:
    3,926
    Featured Threads:
    3
    Likes Received:
    56,648
    Trophy Points:
    2,922
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Netherlands
    MBTI:
    xNTP
    Enneagram:
    6-4-9
    Socualism/Communism is better at preventing poverty and building communities?

    ROFL.

    Yes, it's good at building communities that flee or starve. And yes, when everyone's poor, the word ceases to have meaning, so I guess in that sense it's true.

    Misery loves company so nothing builds community like suffering side by side.


    Sarcasm aside, I'm currently staying with my family in law in Colombia. There are 4.5 million Venezuelan refugees here. Come here, have a conversation with them, see how you feel then.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Reason, John K, Rit4lin and 1 other person like this.
  4. Rit4lin

    Rit4lin Community Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Threads:
    2
    Messages:
    493
    Featured Threads:
    2
    Likes Received:
    4,662
    Trophy Points:
    1,202
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    MBTI:
    INxx
    In my view, no. There is arguably too much of a risk that a system ran by AI/technology being too data-centred and efficient, invariably being cold and perhaps even inhumane. Unless you're into a Matrix reality then hell yeah
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    John K and Ren like this.
  5. Lady Jolanda

    Lady Jolanda Anti-glitch Bitch
    Staff Member Tech Admin

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2017
    Threads:
    37
    Messages:
    3,926
    Featured Threads:
    3
    Likes Received:
    56,648
    Trophy Points:
    2,922
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Netherlands
    MBTI:
    xNTP
    Enneagram:
    6-4-9
    Sure, if you like the 1950's. :D
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    John K and Ren like this.
  6. Ren

    Ren Pin's android / The Maker

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Threads:
    55
    Messages:
    11,438
    Featured Threads:
    29
    Likes Received:
    88,327
    Trophy Points:
    4,246
    Location:
    Dublin
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    458 ∨ 451
    Lmao, true.

    Which is why I kindly asked the OP to specify what was meant by 'good'. If the 1950s are the cream of the cream then sure let's Cuba it up :D
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Lady Jolanda and John K like this.
  7. John K

    Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Threads:
    3
    Messages:
    4,980
    Featured Threads:
    3
    Likes Received:
    48,532
    Trophy Points:
    2,887
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire, England
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    5W4 549
    Lol the 1950s were great - relative to what came before. We had no central heating, no car, no fridge or washing machine, no double glazing. I was only a kid then and didn't know any better (who could) but you can keep it and stuff it.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #47 John K, Jan 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
    Lady Jolanda, Ren and Rit4lin like this.
  8. slant

    slant Ruby Adoraboobie

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Threads:
    325
    Messages:
    9,556
    Featured Threads:
    35
    Likes Received:
    12,161
    Trophy Points:
    1,616
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    INFP
    This feels like a question that would take at least three years of research to even have a slightly intelligent and informed opinion on.

    Why ya asking the hard hitters, @The_Mysterious_Stranger ?

    You a history buff?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  9. Ren

    Ren Pin's android / The Maker

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Threads:
    55
    Messages:
    11,438
    Featured Threads:
    29
    Likes Received:
    88,327
    Trophy Points:
    4,246
    Location:
    Dublin
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    458 ∨ 451
    To be fair, a lot of serious research has been done on the topic already.

    In the realm of both political science and historical research, I think it is fair to say the consensus among experts is capitalism is full of flaws, while communism (at least as it has been implemented in the twentieth century) is a catastrophe.

    I think we can only take the OP question as open-ended if we posit from the start that communism has never been truly implemented. For example communism should theoretically not lead to an autocracy. But then this raises the question: is it a democratic communist system actually possible? etc.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Lady Jolanda, Daustus, John K and 5 others like this.
  10. OP
    The_Mysterious_Stranger

    The_Mysterious_Stranger Community Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Threads:
    21
    Messages:
    336
    Featured Threads:
    7
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    A dream within a dream
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    146 so/sx
    The bigger question could be, could a civilization like in Star Trek be implemented?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    John K likes this.
  11. Cornerstone

    Cornerstone Well-known member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2012
    Threads:
    24
    Messages:
    2,093
    Featured Threads:
    2
    Likes Received:
    1,973
    Trophy Points:
    777
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London
    MBTI:
    Pisces
    Enneagram:
    Metal Goat
    Nah, these things have to develop. It's the implementers who are the problem and mess everything up. It's not to say it can't happen, I mean, communism (the epoch) and Christianity have common themes. It's the Socialism (epoch), the need for violent revolution, and the dictatorship of the proletariat (that the smelly, stupid proletariat can't be trusted to run themselves) which is where things immediately go wrong.

    Vanguard, my arse!

    I'll be communist with the people I like, you do the same, and eventually it'll reach a tipping point or something.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Rit4lin, Ren and John K like this.
  12. John K

    Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Threads:
    3
    Messages:
    4,980
    Featured Threads:
    3
    Likes Received:
    48,532
    Trophy Points:
    2,887
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire, England
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    5W4 549
    I’m thinking that this depends on the nature of the goals. If they are intrinsically bound up with a theoretical system then I fear they are doomed to failure. That’s because no fixed system can be appropriate for all eventualities- I doubt that contemporary political systems can seriously pursue essential objectives that need several generations of sacrifice to deliver for example. We seem to be struggling with that problem at the moment in relation to the environment. There are no stable goals of that sort because the way our societies develop and the things our environment throw at us means these goals have to change, and that tends to destroy the related system.

    On the other hand there are goals expressed as values that seem to be independent of any one system and which most civilised societies agree on in some form or another. The pursuit of happiness, the right to life, etc. I think that these sort of objectives can be accepted as teleological objectives and remain constant and valid under severe changes in society, political system, or environment.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Lady Jolanda, Pin, Rit4lin and 2 others like this.
  13. Hostarius

    Hostarius A L I G N

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2018
    Threads:
    53
    Messages:
    13,069
    Featured Threads:
    20
    Likes Received:
    91,441
    Trophy Points:
    4,256
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    MBTI:
    INTJ
    Enneagram:
    1w2
    I have quite a lot I could say about this, but apart from John & to some extent Ren (you need to give us your actual opinion, man!), the level of this debate has been pretty low. Up your damn game, lads!

    What I find disappointing about the modern reception of Marxism is that Marx's theory of history (Historical Materialism; HM) and critique of capitalism are given nowhere near enough credit because of what happened subsequently in the twentieth century.

    To me, HM is almost like Newton's theory of gravitation - it fits all the contemporary data and seems to work quite elegantly, but breaks down over the long term and at particular scales, &c. (e.g. Newton compared to Einstein). As theories of history go, HM is still unsurpassed to my mind (mostly because nobody since Tonybee has really bothered), and people forget this. It's easier to critique than it is to replace, and all the whoha in the modern field of International Relations of them whinging about how historians won't theorise their output and have stopped producing theories of history ('substantive philosophy of history') seems to prove this.

    Marx was an intellectual powerhouse; an unsurpassed genius in his time and field, and his modern reception feels like people bashing a Newton as if they could've done better.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Pin, Rit4lin, John K and 2 others like this.
  14. philostam

    philostam Community Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2019
    Threads:
    3
    Messages:
    862
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    3,585
    Trophy Points:
    992
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INTP
    Enneagram:
    539
    Well said, I agree with this. The first time I read Marx, I was truly shocked...The quality of his writing and insights were staggering.
     
    Pin, John K, Ren and 1 other person like this.
  15. Ren

    Ren Pin's android / The Maker

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2017
    Threads:
    55
    Messages:
    11,438
    Featured Threads:
    29
    Likes Received:
    88,327
    Trophy Points:
    4,246
    Location:
    Dublin
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    458 ∨ 451
    It's funny because the person I'm 'seeing' at the moment said recently that on the forum I tend to facilitate/ask questions rather than give my opinion. ^^ So perhaps there's a bit of that at work here, but mostly I haven't been pushed to express my opinion because the OP question seemed a little bit old/unexciting to me. @philostam suggested moving the discussion to a more abstract/theoretical level which is probably the only way to salvage it.

    One thing I'll say for the time being is that you can be an intellectual powerhouse and still produce a theory that is completely false. I'm not claiming that applies to Marx but it is still important to emphasise this distinction. As for my actual opinion, well, let me figure it out first and then I'll develop it in more detail :p
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Pin, Rit4lin and Hostarius like this.
  16. philostam

    philostam Community Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2019
    Threads:
    3
    Messages:
    862
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    3,585
    Trophy Points:
    992
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INTP
    Enneagram:
    539


    Here is the take by Yannis Varoufakis: "Confessions of an erratic Marxist".

    I already mentioned him a few times, but I consider him to be one of the greatest public intellectuals of our time.

    What's also interesting is that his 3 biggest inspirations are Marx, Keynes and John Nash, who are all typed as INTJs.

    No surprise that Varoufakis seems to be an INTJ as well. We seem to be attracted to our own type on some level.
     
    Ren and Hostarius like this.
  17. Reason

    Reason Keep Cool

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2017
    Threads:
    52
    Messages:
    5,788
    Featured Threads:
    34
    Likes Received:
    34,900
    Trophy Points:
    3,462
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Roaring 20s
    MBTI:
    INTP
    To put a man in space, the first country to send something into space was Nazi Germany during some of their rocket tests
    Not to Pol Pot it ain't
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Rit4lin, Ren and Hostarius like this.
  18. OP
    The_Mysterious_Stranger

    The_Mysterious_Stranger Community Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Threads:
    21
    Messages:
    336
    Featured Threads:
    7
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    A dream within a dream
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    146 so/sx
    And Leo Tolstoy , Fyodor Dostoevsky, and Leon Trotsky were all INFJs.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #58 The_Mysterious_Stranger, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
    Rit4lin and Pin like this.
  19. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2017
    Threads:
    10
    Messages:
    9,622
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    35,918
    Trophy Points:
    2,976
    MBTI:
    ENTJ
    Enneagram:
    3w4, 3-8-7
    Correct!
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Rit4lin, Ren and Hostarius like this.
  20. OP
    The_Mysterious_Stranger

    The_Mysterious_Stranger Community Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Threads:
    21
    Messages:
    336
    Featured Threads:
    7
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    A dream within a dream
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    146 so/sx
    I like the idea of communism mixed with capitalism. Because it better motivates people into STEM, philosophy, and more sophisticated arts (like music, architecture. As Neizche said, make art achievement oriented. (I think Dennis Prager has a good criticism on a lot of the liberal art) Capitalism is a distraction. Sort of how renaissance artists were under direction of the Vatican.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Ren, Hostarius and Rit4lin like this.
Loading...

Share This Page