We got off easy... maybe.

[Lerxst]

Looking back through history, some of the more socially developed countries in the world have either A) been invaded or bombed into submission during WWII B) Been neighbors to countries who have been or C) Been closely affiliated politically and personally with countries who were (Canada and Australia for instance). The USA, on the other hand, had it easy, sitting peacefully across an ocean; Pearl Harbor doesn't even hold a candle to the destruction in most European countries during the war, or the atom bombs on Japan.

It was during this rebuild that most of the modern governments changed/emerged and developed more socially beneficial policies - healthcare, education, etc. The US, on the other hand, pretty much went on as usual, the only change was people (returned vets) wanting to settle down, move to cities and raise families. During the era Japan, Germany and most other nations were rebuilding, we were finding new enemies to invade in Korea and Vietnam.

I'd say the US pretty much ended up being the real loser of WWII. Because of the lack of any real threat to us or any of our close non-combat relatives, people never felt the need to band together afterwards. Most of those policies European nations came up with, they did because people truly needed the help to lift themselves out of the rubble and ever since, they've just considered them to be common sense - of course we have National Healthcare! Who wouldn't?. But, then there's America. No threat, no catastrophic loss of property, life and freedoms, no need to change from the Robber Baron mentalities of the late 1800's.

Now look at us. We rank last is just about every major 1st-world list of social policy and reform. Education, healthcare... you'd hard pressed to tell our numbers apart from a 3rd world country. However, hallelujah! We rank 1st in prisons! We have billionaires who can't be bothered with paying taxes in the country that allowed them to become billionaires. We fight against labor unions and any form of collective bargaining, as if it's trampling the right of...the super rich... maybe? Education's taken a dive, as we have a shocking stupid number of people who actually think God snapped his fingers and *poof* created man only a few thousand years ago.

I can go on and on and on about the stupid shit we let happen in this country, most of it, however, is related to the fact that the USA never had to rebuild from the ground up. There was never any real reason for the citizenry to band together and help one another or use the government as the primary caregiver in place of themselves.

 

[Cornerstone]

Yeah, that was why you became the superpower immediately following the war. It was US loans that rebuilt Britain. We were half hoping you'd just give it but no dice.

It could be argued that you set the stage there for what the relations between the US and the rest of the world there since we were the closest thing to a role model you had and we were placed into a submissive position for ideological reasons and lack of public support, not out of economic necessity.

It's like we institutionalised our virtues after WW2 to keep them safe. It doesn't, of course, but it leads to gradual rather than sudden decline. We have tonnes of bureaucracy and that will hold us down more than any dictator in a seemingly benign manner, for our own good. The inefficiency can always be blamed on some financial issue which we have generally no way of disproving so are forced to live with the consequences or break the rules. I can see how we are separating into 'Outer Party' and 'Proles' in England and it's worrying. There's a lot of duckspeak, especially on the 'big' moral questions. I've been guilty of it too but it is alienating and pure rhetoric because when it is applied you come against the massive bureaucracy and either say 'okay' or go deeper to see the financial bullshit @muir speaks about (and maybe further beyond than you'd like to).

The US never had its virtue threatened by WW2. It may have been inflated. More paranoia though because you did the bad thing and you know it.

But, as the only real superpower (the Soviet Union developed nukes but not much more that could compete) you went a bit nuts...but in secret because of the yankee-doodle-everything's-fine-and-dandy image. It seems like the US is reaping some of what it has sown as there appears to be more of a turning on the actual citizens but, again, for your own good (which, incidentally, is how the British bureaucracy works and how many still view the Empire when they have to acknowledge it existed at all). We could point at our institutionalised virtues and you when things were to horrible to face but where does the US citizen point when all of the (genuinely good) aspects of American society begin to lose their shine in comparison to the negative?

I think, back to your foundation. Not in a crazy way but it shouldn't be dismissed entirely because they were hypocrites. Maybe they were optimistic.

Point is, the foundations are solid and hold the potential for a civilisation capable of great things but something went awry when you became the global superpower. If I had to pick a revolution (real or imagined) in human history to take part in as one going against the status quo, the one you would have to undertake to get your nation back now would be waaaaay down the list. Well, for changing the world it would be right up there. The reality of it looks grim though.

Good luck?

 

[j654dgj7]

good theory. i think that you're on the right track. i don't think that it starts off with wwii though. we must look back further to see where it went wrong.

there's a few things that i would point to as reasons as to why america doesn't do well in domestic policies.

1) "the new world"

when the puritans arrived to america, they were all coming from old kingdoms. "old-timey europe" had been governed by lords and kings for hundreds of years, by dictators (really) that consistently had to step between the line of being huge dicks most of the time, but also keeping people from revolting and installing a new form of government. this had become increasingly difficult with time, and this lead to an informal bond between the government and the people. the people traded their lives and rights to get the protection of the crown/lord/whatever.

this very european tradition of looking at politics and ones own interests would mostly translate into a history of strong unions, great health care, good schooling systems, ect. ect. businesses, religion (mostly) and interest groups aren't seen as political players, and up until recently haven't really been let into political discussions.

enough about europe. these europeans came to america and didn't have that bond between benevolent dictator and the people of the country, and instead made a government based on the right for them to practice their puritanical christianity and ways of business as they saw fit. this leads me to ...

2) an amputated government

when america was "set up" the world was very different than it is today. the founding fathers had no way to predict the internet -- let alone trains and cars! they couldn't conceive of mega-huge businesses like disney, mcdonald's, coca-cola, apple, microsoft, etc.

they also couldn't conceive how much power and money a conglomerate banking company could yield. there was just no way of knowing.

had they known, they might have thought twice about the reach and involvement of the federal government. there's just so many things that your government want to change that they simply can't because of corporate interests. this definitely includes the cost of health care, teacher's salaries, union relations, the quality of food and water -- the list goes on and on. this goes into my next point.

3) lobbying

it's getting easier and easier to basically hire a politician to do what you want them to do, in case they get elected. politicians keep raising the maximum amount allowed per person to donate to a political campaign, which is not just scary, it's coming close to threatening the notion of democracy in america. think about it -- who can afford to buy a guy in washington? a park ranger? a teacher? a nurse?

if anything lobbying is the single most pressing issue, and the one that needs to be addressed most urgently. why isn't it? because who dares go against the people that funds upcoming campaigns? it's a sickness and to me it's the single most gross thing about america. change it, please.

lobbying in america is not a new thing. it has a long and terrible history of killing great things and initiatives because the old hats were able to afford it.

why is there no public outcry in america to curtail lobbying?

4) the theory of "men being created equal".

"hey man, you can't tell businesses what to do! they're run by people! and all men were created equal!" essentially seems to be the opinion of the people that i've talked to about the subject.

if there's one thing that america was built on, it was the hope and love for entrepreneurs. and i'll say it -- thank you so much for my refrigerator, freezer, car, computer, phone, television, oven -- they're great and i love em! the amount of optimism and positivity that comes shining out of america is an inspiration to the rest of the world, and it rocks.

... however, it might also be killing you a little. i get the impression that your loving relationship with businesses and entrepreneurs is turning into an unhealthy relationship. if you don't monitor and regulate the very big and established companies, and make sure that they pay their taxes, offer fair wages and stay out of politics and lobbying, then you're not going to see any improvements in domestic politics any time soon. i know that big business is great for you right now, but if you're giving them unfair advantages and killing off their rivals by not keeping them fair and honest.

just to take a random example of a company i just googled to show you my point. i love apple products, but they're basically paying you less than 1% of what they earn in taxes. so are a lot of other huge corporations. what would these money be going to? the military, schools, universities, health care, roads, food inspectors, police officers, fire fighters, you name it. instead they're taking advantage of your generosity and positivity towards entrepreneurship. trust me, it's okay to set a few limits. they're not going anywhere.

 

[Lerxst]

I was also going to point out the the US has one of (if not the) oldest governments in the modern world. Every other country it likes to compare itself to hit the "reset button" well after our Declaration of Independence was signed. France, England, just about all of Europe, Japan etc.

As the Conservatives most often ignored and/or misquoted President of the US put it, "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical."

An interesting observation can be made about the US government and the Wildfire program that was instituted in the early 20th century. The government pretty much claimed it would fight every fire detected, regardless of cause or location, shortly after the major fires burned Chicago and Sn Francisco. This lead to about 80 years of old-undergrowth forested areas in the US as the natural fire cleansing process was eliminated. As a former firefighter, I will tell you that a quick burning grass fire might look awful, but it does very little damage to tree, leaving the forest with a clean floor and healthy trees.

After 80 or so years of this program, wildfires that did develop became larger and larger, destroying more and more land - including the tree canopy - each time they appeared. The result of this program is a bunch of sickly forests that explode into massive fireballs every time there's a fire now with only a few efforts now and then to do "control burns" in between the "fire seasons".

Back to point... the US is one of these sickly, old growth forests in the political world and Jefferson was right, a little rebellion would have been a good thing. Unfortunately, 240 years without a good rebellion to shift the government (Yes, the Civil war did take place, but no, our government just went back to being itself in the end without any of the change that was necessary) now means it will take nothing short of a cataclysmic event to actually change our direction.

 

[Stu]

Yes, the Civil war did take place, but no, our government just went back to being itself in the end without any of the change that was necessary.

not so sure about that....

It is easy to portray the US as many things, but the loser of WWII, that's a stretch.

This country is changing so rapidly that if some one were to walk out of 1944 NYC and into 2015 Lincoln NB they might die of shock, and I am not talking technology.

 

[Lark]

I couldnt say that the US was a loser at all, the lack of an immediate proximate threat was what almost caused world wide devastation at the time of the Cuban missile crisis as for the US it was too much of too near a threat for them but the missiles, had they been intalled, would've been still not as close a proximate threat as those in neighbouring countries to NATO nations in Europe.

The US did choose to develop its military and neglected social policy and health policy but that is part of a far greater and wider ideological paradigm you're not grasping I dont think, to the elites in the US its the US which has won and not lost, its the Swedish style institutional welfare states which have lost and dont know it yet, all of which will have to eventually approximate something like the US system only when they do they will have to face the challenge of entrenched public expectations which the US has not yet to contend with.

What you describe as a failing it considered just one margin cost associated with being world hegemon, which has been achieved and is maintained through force of arms mroe than force of ideas.

That might sound like the world according to neo-conservatism but its precisely how it is, its got a long history charting back to interpretations of the Peloponnesian War, when democratic Greece fought a war with Sparta, which was a sort of militaristic autocracy and absolutism, Greece lost and some historians to this day argue it was a consequence of the weakness of democracy versus militarism.

 

[Alomoes]

Looking back through history, some of the more socially developed countries in the world have either A) been invaded or bombed into submission during WWII B) Been neighbors to countries who have been or C) Been closely affiliated politically and personally with countries who were (Canada and Australia for instance). The USA, on the other hand, had it easy, sitting peacefully across an ocean; Pearl Harbor doesn't even hold a candle to the destruction in most European countries during the war, or the atom bombs on Japan.

It was during this rebuild that most of the modern governments changed/emerged and developed more socially beneficial policies - healthcare, education, etc. The US, on the other hand, pretty much went on as usual, the only change was people (returned vets) wanting to settle down, move to cities and raise families. During the era Japan, Germany and most other nations were rebuilding, we were finding new enemies to invade in Korea and Vietnam.

I'd say the US pretty much ended up being the real loser of WWII. Because of the lack of any real threat to us or any of our close non-combat relatives, people never felt the need to band together afterwards. Most of those policies European nations came up with, they did because people truly needed the help to lift themselves out of the rubble and ever since, they've just considered them to be common sense - of course we have National Healthcare! Who wouldn't?. But, then there's America. No threat, no catastrophic loss of property, life and freedoms, no need to change from the Robber Baron mentalities of the late 1800's.

Now look at us. We rank last is just about every major 1st-world list of social policy and reform. Education, healthcare... you'd hard pressed to tell our numbers apart from a 3rd world country. However, hallelujah! We rank 1st in prisons! We have billionaires who can't be bothered with paying taxes in the country that allowed them to become billionaires. We fight against labor unions and any form of collective bargaining, as if it's trampling the right of...the super rich... maybe? Education's taken a dive, as we have a shocking stupid number of people who actually think God snapped his fingers and *poof* created man only a few thousand years ago.

I can go on and on and on about the stupid shit we let happen in this country, most of it, however, is related to the fact that the USA never had to rebuild from the ground up. There was never any real reason for the citizenry to band together and help one another or use the government as the primary caregiver in place of themselves.

I'm confused. Who said we rank last in GDP? Or that we rank last in military? We are so definitely poor. Third world country. I'm so poor, I can't afford to buy... nevermind, I checked, and I can. Also, WW2 wasn't about us taking land. It was about keeping the balance of power so Germany can't invade the US. And for those of you who thought they couldn't, think about what would have happened if they won in the east and took all of Eurasia. Then they stop producing tanks. They start producing boats.

And I don't see the EU as being lifted out of rubble. And the stupid religious people shouldn't be forced to accept your lifestyle. That is imperialism. I don't like imperialism.

 

[Lerxst]

I'm confused. Who said we rank last in GDP? Or that we rank last in military? We are so definitely poor. Third world country. I'm so poor, I can't afford to buy... nevermind, I checked, and I can. Also, WW2 wasn't about us taking land. It was about keeping the balance of power so Germany can't invade the US. And for those of you who thought they couldn't, think about what would have happened if they won in the east and took all of Eurasia. Then they stop producing tanks. They start producing boats.

And I don't see the EU as being lifted out of rubble. And the stupid religious people shouldn't be forced to accept your lifestyle. That is imperialism. I don't like imperialism.

Way to read too far into nothing that I actually wrote.

I never said or hinted that we rank last in GDP. And the exact opposite is true for our military...we rank 1st, more than the next 10 (or 20) below us combined. I said, "socially beneficial policies - healthcare, education, etc." This has nothing to do with GDP or military. I never said we, the people, are too poor to afford anything... except maybe that $25,000 medical bill now and then.

I never called people "stupid" for believing in religion, I only said "a stupid number of people". If they want to defy logic and reason beyond that, that's their prerogative.

I never even talked about WWII tactics and countries invading each other. The point was... since it seems to have gone totally over your head for some reason... the ones who DID get invaded and bombed had to rebuild from the ashes; we didn't. In the late 40's they had to hit the "reset" button, stop look around and reconsider their priorities, we didn't. Would you believe Germany now has much stronger economy than the US, so much so that it can actually pick up Greece's tab, along with Universal Healthcare (no tens of thousands of dollars worth of medical bills driving their citizens into poverty), an abundance of renewable "green" energy... 74% of their power comes from renewable sources and free college tuition.

And they lost the war...

Now, how did we, the relatively unscathed "winners" fare? Multiple financial crises, a hugely inflated military supported by tax dollars and people we send to it that's carried over from the second World War, people declaring bankruptcy (I personally know multiple spread across the country) from 5-6 digit medical bills and still not actually receiving the attention the require, Wall Street ('nuff said about that one already) and tuition costs that frighten most students away before they can start, or cause an entire generation to go in debt before they even have a career.

To the winners go the... something or other.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Yeah and I understand that national health care is working so well in other countries. Please. Of course a country would want it. Of course a country would want to feed its people, give everyone a mansion and give them all a multimillion dollar sports car in the drive way. Who wouldnt? Ths problem is cost. We cant afford it and even if we could if you give everyone those things no one would have a reason to get out of bed in the morning and goto work. Who then would pick up your trash, farm your food, process your sewage. Who would fix your nice house, your car. Who would look at your health. Who would fix your roads.
Its not that hard to process.

 

[just me]

There will be a necessity of rebuilding after this administration is finally gone.

 

[wolkenkraetzer]

There will be a necessity of rebuilding after this administration is finally gone.

So...just what needs to be rebuilt after the current administration?

 

[Lerxst]

Yeah and I understand that national health care is working so well in other countries. Please. Of course a country would want it. Of course a country would want to feed its people, give everyone a mansion and give them all a multimillion dollar sports car in the drive way. Who wouldnt? Ths problem is cost. We cant afford it and even if we could if you give everyone those things no one would have a reason to get out of bed in the morning and goto work. Who then would pick up your trash, farm your food, process your sewage. Who would fix your nice house, your car. Who would look at your health. Who would fix your roads.
Its not that hard to process.

But... we pay more into our Heathcare system than any country that has a national one in place and we get less out of it (see this link). Then let's talk about the 30% of our budget dedicated to military spending. You think that, may, there's something else we could be spending that on?

 

[Eventhorizon]

But... we pay more into our Heathcare system than any country that has a national one in place and we get less out of it (see this link). Then let's talk about the 30% of our budget dedicated to military spending. You think that, may, there's something else we could be spending that on?

If the world could be place where a military wasnt necessary yes, there are other things we could spend it on.

 

[Eventhorizon]

So...just what needs to be rebuilt after the current administration?

America.

 

[wolkenkraetzer]

If the world could be place where a military wasnt necessary yes, there are other things we could spend it on.

So the US should follow the North Korean model?

America.

Can you be a bit more specific?

 

[just me]

With such negativity in the first post, I feel no need to explain mine.

 

[Alomoes]

We should lose a war then, is that what you are saying? But yeah, our financial issues are more from politics than anything related to WWII. If anything, WWII made us strong, and the Cold War broke our budget. What you said about healthcare is true though. I don't care. I say fix the problem.

 

[Lerxst]

We should lose a war then, is that what you are saying? But yeah, our financial issues are more from politics than anything related to WWII. If anything, WWII made us strong, and the Cold War broke our budget. What you said about healthcare is true though. I don't care. I say fix the problem.

What do you think led to the Cold War and our politics though? That's my point.

Most other countries were too buy trying to take care of themselves and rebuild everything from the ground up to care about what the USSR was doing. It may have been in the back of their minds, but they had more important things to worry about. We, however, had plenty of spare time and an inflated military we needed to do something with since we had little to worry about rebuilding.

WWII sparked the Cold War which turned into the Korean War. At the same time, state-side we had a lunatic in our government calling everyone with "different" views a Communist and blacklisting them from every part of our society - McCarthyism. That one era alone, killed any liberal movement in the US, the same movement the other countries almost had to embrace by default since it was the one that had the mindset of rebuilding and taking care of the people.

 

[muir]

You didn't lose world war 2...you were the emphatic winner, left with a powerful military and an intact country, whilst europe had been flattened and its men folk depleted

Your country has been sabotaged since from the inside...it's that simple

There has been a plan for many generations to build a world government. The US as a superpower whose people are confident and believe in their country is an obstacle to that world government. No powerful, energy self sufficient nation is going to allow itself to be merged into a world government thereby losing its democratic say in matters so first of all the US must be destroyed as an economic power....this is well under way and i'll explain how it is done in a minute

Secondly the US must be destroyed as a military power and that is being done as we speak as the US military is being stretched all over the globe

Thirdly the US must be undermined so that its people lose all confidence in their country, in themselves and in each other...this stage is also now at an advanced stage

Finally the US public must be disarmed...but despite lots of false flag shootings this has not yet been achieved

US historian Prof Carroll Quigley who taught President Bill Clinton explained this to any american (US) people who were willing to listen but many aren't really paying attention

If there is anyone paying attention to this then this is what the historian said was the aim of the conspirators:

“…nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and he economy of the world as a whole. The system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert by secret agreements arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences. The apex of the system was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basil, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world’s central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank …sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world”

The conspirators came to attention of many patriotic americans who then sought to rout out what they believed was a 'commuinist plot'. The Mccarthy trials was an attempt to uncover the plot to weaken the US from within.

However McCarthy missunderstood the situation. The conspirators were not 'communists' however they did work with communists and were behind the bolshevik revolution in russia

The conspirators were capitalists who wanted to create a world government that they would control. After world war 1 the globalists created a prototype world government called the 'League of nations' and after world war 2 this was then transformed and beefed up into the United Nations

Although i do not have any particular attachment to the concept of nation states i do not agree with the vision of these people who seek to centralise all power under their control. I personally would like to see all the power put in the hands of the people (decentralisation)

The conspirators have used various groups at different times as and when it suited their agenda to do so for example they have used: 'communism', 'capitalism', 'fascism', religious 'extremism', atheism etc etc leading Quigley to say:

''This radical Right fairy tale, which is now an accepted folk myth in many groups in America, pictured the recent history of the United States, in regard to domestic reform and in foreign affairs, as a well-organized plot by extreme Left-wing elements.... This myth, like all fables, does in fact have a modicum of truth. There does exist, and has existed for a generation, an international Anglophile network which operates, to some extent, in the way the Radical right believes the Communists act. In fact, this network, which we may identify as the Round Table Groups, has no aversion to cooperating with the Communists, or any other group, and frequently does so. I know of the operation of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to examine its papers and secret records. I have no aversion to it or to most of its aims and have, for much of my life, been close to it and to many of its instruments. I have objected, both in the past and recently, to a few of its policies... but in general my chief difference of opinion is that it wishes to remain unknown, and I believe its role in history is significant enough to be known.[SUP][23][/SUP]:949—''

The kennedy brothers supported mccarthy and the kennedys created a silver backed currency that would bypass the paper currency created by the conspirators who had formed a banking cartel which they then got the US government to agree to allow to control the money supply; this they called the 'federal reserve bank'

The federal reserve banking system is a giant con as money is created out of thin air with nothing on deposit and then the US people are charged interest on that money which benefits the bankers. This means that everytime a dollar is created debt is created and this is why the 'debt ceiling' is constantly raised. eventually this debt will come crashing down taking the dollar with it which is what the globalists want because they are planning to destroy the US economy so badly that the US public then agree to joining a world government with a new world currency thereby offering them a way out of their manufactured poverty

So the US economy is being deliberately sabotaged.

meanwhile the conspirators gave jobs in US universities to a group called the 'Frankfurt School' who then taught US students something they called 'critical theory' which is to constantly criticise all aspects of US capitalism without ever offering a solution because they want to conceal their solution which is to create a one world government which they will control

The US is also subverted from within through a combination of cultural marxism, multi-culturalism and marxist feminism which are all designed to attack the social fabric of US society and undo its cohesion

What's more all this is working very well...because the US is suffering all sorts of problems

They didn't manage to take the guns away yet though which is preventing the process from rolling out into its final phase of nationwide lockdown, fema camp imprisonments, occupation by the UN and the destruction of national sovereignty

Senator Barry Goldwater tried to warn us about this thirty years ago. In his book With No Apologies (1979), he wrote:

“Where I differ from [then Governor Nelson Rockefeller] is in the suggestion implicit throughout his [1962 lectures at Harvard University] that… the United States must submerge its national identity and surrender substantial matters of sovereignty to a new political order. The implications in Governor Rockefeller’s presentation have become concrete proposals advanced by David Rockefeller’s newest international cabal, the Trilateral Commission. Whereas the Council on Foreign Relations is distinctly national in membership, the Trilateral Commission is international… It is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. Zbigniew Brzezinski and David Rockefeller screened and selected every individual who was invited to participate in shaping and administering the proposed new world order.” (pg 293)
“What the Trilaterals truly intend is the creation of a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the national-states involved… As managers and creators of the system they will rule the future.” ” (pg. 299) http://www.infowars.com/clinton-quigley-and-the-new-world-order/

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