The toxic connection between empath and narcissist

Ryso89

Ryso89

Banned
MBTI
INFJ
My apologies if something like this has been created in this thread or any of the others, but I didn't see one.

There is a repeating pattern in my life, a connection I can't put my finger on, or at least, I can't explain the psychology behind, and that is the obvious connection between empath and narcissist. What are your experiences with narcissistic people? Relationships, interactions, everything, I want to know. I want to dig behind and beneath the psych of this interplay.

My ex was a narcissist. One of my friends is too, and we are not extremely close for obvious reasons.

Lately, a girl in my life who has these tendencies is drawn towards me, and I to her. I can't explain this interest beyond physical, but I know she lacks the self esteem that I have for myself and her social media activity has made it strikingly obvious that she is addicted to "likes" and validation from as many people as she can persuade to give her attention. She is a calm and benevolent soul, a very pretty spirit - but her need for acceptance and her million selfies tells me a deeper story about what's going on in her mind. This behavior is so toxic to me. I don't understand why us two types are drawn towards each other. It's like some kind of magnetic pull.
 
Ryso89 said:
This behavior is so toxic to me. I don't understand why us two types are drawn towards each other. It's like some kind of magnetic pull.
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Just curious...what do you mean when you say "Lately, a girl in my life who has these tendencies is drawn towards me, and I to her."....in what way? Are you able to give examples?
 
Isabella said:
Just curious...what do you mean when you say "Lately, a girl in my life who has these tendencies is drawn towards me, and I to her."....in what way? Are you able to give examples?
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Subtle ways; she flirts with me at work. I don't know how to flirt, but I'm very attracted to her.
 
OK, you really need to give me a little MORE info :tongueout: - what is it about her that you're attracted to?
 
She's introverted. Her calm nature, mannerisms, how she treats people, stuff like that. This is hard! I'm also sexually attracted to her, but maybe that's beside the point?
 
I had the narcissist attraction pattern for awhile. I had healthy relationships before the pattern started so I had a little bit of an easier time figuring out what was going on. The first major one was liking to be idealized. Narcissists will idealize you. It feels good to be on a pedestal and they will love bomb you to hook you. I've grown to be weary of pedestals now, but that's the fatal temptation to snare you in. If you can resist the urge to be worshipped you won't fall prey to them. You seem to be attracted to somatic narcissists, I was attracted to cerebral narcissists. You can find someone to stimulate you sexually without the narcissism attached, just as I can find someone to stimulate me mentally without the narcissism. Just don't get hooked in the beginning and you can get out.

The most important connection I made though was I was emotionally unavailable when I allowed these people into my lives. When I'm emotionally unavailable I will be drawn to the most ridiculous people/situations.

The main thing you may want to explore is that you may have intimacy issues. Otherwise, having good boundaries and listening to people closely and watching in the beginning stages of a relationship will keep you in the clear. They will tell you and show you who they are very early on. Listen to yourself and most importantly use your empathy. They will show blatant displays of lack of empathy or cold empathy early on. It's unmistakable. Don't ignore it. If you can get rid of these people early on you won't have to waste your time thinking about this stuff. I see people in their 50's still in this pattern and you can tell they've spent YEARS of their lives on this. They know the lingo and it's just sad. Narcissists are dead on the inside and they don't live in reality. I spent two years getting to know one after I knew he was the way he was, just out of morbid curiosity. Once I got to the core of who he was, it was like seeing a corpse.

The connection between empaths and narcs may be as simple as we both want what the other can offer. We want to be special, and they want to be loved.
 
Ryso89 said:
She's introverted. Her calm nature, mannerisms, how she treats people, stuff like that. This is hard! I'm also sexually attracted to her, but maybe that's beside the point?
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And what are her narcissistic tendencies? That she takes selfies and seeks the approval of others? That does not make her a narcissist. Narcissists aren't really benevolent. Any good thing they do for others is only to benefit themselves.
 
acd said:
And what are her narcissistic tendencies? That she takes selfies and seeks the approval of others? That does not make her a narcissist. Narcissists aren't really benevolent. Any good thing they do for others is only to benefit themselves.
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I don't know her that well. I can only correlate her need for validation with the toxic behaviors of people I've known in the past. Maybe she isn't. Maybe she is, I don't know.
 
Ryso89 said:
Lately, a girl in my life who has these tendencies is drawn towards me, and I to her. I can't explain this interest beyond physical, but I know she lacks the self esteem that I have for myself and her social media activity has made it strikingly obvious that she is addicted to "likes" and validation from as many people as she can persuade to give her attention. She is a calm and benevolent soul, a very pretty spirit - but her need for acceptance and her million selfies tells me a deeper story about what's going on in her mind. This behavior is so toxic to me. I don't understand why us two types are drawn towards each other. It's like some kind of magnetic pull.
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Oh brother.

First of all, true pathological narcissists are very rare (they make up something like less than 1% of the population) and the label/projected diagnosis these days is so misused, everyone and their grandmother has been accused of narcissism at some point. The way I've seen it tossed around, I've come to conclude that most people think that 'he who is vain and charming and seeks other people approval AND offends me = narcissist.'

In general, I would be very careful before I conclude someone has a personality disorder based on a handful of traits that align with the stereotype. Needing acceptance and snapping 'a million' selfies doesn't a narcissist make. Particularly since this kind of behavior (disconcerting though it is) is something of a pop cultural norm. Some people are just following the trends.

Also you might be surprised to learn that everyone has narcissistic traits to varying degrees. It's actually healthy to have them. It's a sliding scale... but even scoring high in narcissistic traits doesn't necessarily conclude a personality disorder.

Frankly, if you are truly concerned about be a 'victim' of a narcissist, you might want to consider the fact that true narcissists have a lot of covert traits (which is why making official diagnosis is so challenging for professionals) and if you only look at the stereotype purported by pop psychology, you might miss a lot of the red flags. There are a lot of sub-types of narcissist. For instance, some of the so called 'Empaths' described in the article linked may even be narcissists themselves and have a serious case of projection going on where they see narcissism everywhere. [ Signs You're Secretly A Narcissist Masquerading as a Sensitive Introvert]

My point is-- narcissism is actually a real, serious thing that is more complex than most people using the label realize. Resist the urge to throw heavy labels around that you might not understand and/or aren't qualified to diagnose. True narcissism is something that people rarely encounter and it is even more rare that it appears in the overt, stereotypical form. Most of the time it's just human complexity and while it's tempting to try and put a box around it to make ourselves more comfortable, we might be mistaken in assessing the situation and the strategies we utilize.

Personally, I find this kind of narcissist witch hunt more 'toxic' than a bit of Facebook exhibitionism tied up in low self esteem.

As for the girl and your attraction towards her, there could be plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with you being an 'empath' and her being a (purported) narcissist. We are sometimes drawn to people who exalt traits that we wish we had or that may even hidden from ourselves. Sometimes we are drawn to people that fulfill a need within ourselves... or because they remind us of something or someone that we missed out long ago. It's a complex thing, attraction. Just because you find something 'off' doesn't necessarily mean its something insidious requiring a psychological diagnosis. The more sane, reasonable thing is to resist jumping to conclusions and simply tread carefully if you're unsure.
 
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Why should he be careful? I don't understand the caution. I don't see any scenario where he's taking a risk that could potentially harm him or anyone else. He can't actually diagnose someone; he's not a doctor. As long as he doesn't tell her, obviously.

I think most people understand that just because you've labeled someone narcissistic in your mind doesn't mean that they are pathological or require a diagnosis. He just got out of a toxic relationship; attempting a relationship with someone high with narcissistic traits probably isn't going to be pleasant for him right now.

Maybe I am reading too much into his post but I think there is more than just the selfies that gives him this feeling. He can't put his finger on what it is and he is trying to be cautious.
 
CindyLou said:
Why should he be careful? I don't understand the caution. I don't see any scenario where he's taking a risk that could potentially harm him or anyone else. He can't actually diagnose someone; he's not a doctor. As long as he doesn't tell her, obviously.

I think most people understand that just because you've labeled someone narcissistic in your mind doesn't mean that they are pathological or require a diagnosis. He just got out of a toxic relationship; attempting a relationship with someone high with narcissistic traits probably isn't going to be pleasant for him right now.

Maybe I am reading too much into his post but I think there is more than just the selfies that gives him this feeling. He can't put his finger on what it is and he is trying to be cautious.
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See bottom of the post. I'm not at all negating the fact that there might be red flags that he should watch out for, particularly if his gut is telling him something is off and he has a history with toxic relationships. I encourage that caution and I think that is healthy. Jumping to conclusions and assigning a label based on the stereotype, however, is not. In fact, if he's interested in stopping a pattern he sees in himself, he may be doing himself a great disservice in being inaccurate in his assessment. Labeling someone a narcissist because they are posting selfies and enjoying likes on Facebook is a bit extreme no matter how you slice it.

In general, though, I'm just growing increasingly annoyed the way the 'narcissist' label is so casually thrown around. It's become something of a convenient dismissal among people who feel that they have been slighted by a personality different than their own and it's rarely an accurate or fair judgment.

Mind you, if there IS a concern for narcissism, it would be beneficial to realize that there are different types of narcissist and it's not just the self-aggrandizing types to look out for.
 
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All great points. I certainly am not diagnosing anyone, nor am I labeling anyone. It's speculative. Even the thread title itself is about the only relevant thing that I could use to specify such a scenario. CindyLou has me figured out.

The thread is not only about my situation. I'm also interested in learning more of others' experiences with this interaction.
 
Ryso89 said:
What I can say is this: My intuition about her tells me that something is off, and I'm trying to identify exactly what it is with little information to go by. I'm aware of my interest in her, but my inner voice is also telling me to be very careful.
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People are drawn to INFJs at times, as they want help with their issues, and if we are not careful others can exploit our wish to 'fix people'. I think your intuition is telling you something more than just 'selfies'. If I get 'bad vibes' about people ? I steer clear of them. When I have ignored my intuition, I have nearly always regretted it. Unless you feel your intuition has been 'off' for some reason, or there is something else, I'd tread carefully, whether she is a narcissist or not.
 
atree said:
See bottom of the post. I'm not at all negating the fact that there might be red flags that he should watch out for, particularly if his gut is telling him something is off and he has a history with toxic relationships. I encourage that caution and I think that is healthy. Jumping to conclusions and assigning a label based on the stereotype, however, is not. In fact, if he's interested in stopping a pattern he sees in himself, he may be doing himself a great disservice in being inaccurate in his assessment. Labeling someone a narcissist because they are posting selfies and enjoying likes on Facebook is a bit extreme no matter how you slice it.

In general, though, I'm just growing increasingly annoyed the way the 'narcissist' label is so casually thrown around. It's become something of a convenient dismissal among people who feel that they have been slighted by a personality different than their own and it's rarely an accurate or fair judgment.

Mind you, if there IS a concern for narcissism, it would be beneficial to realize that there are different types of narcissist and it's not just the self-aggrandizing types to look out for.
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True. It's been over 6 years since Ive had any contact with anyone that I would consider that toxic but I've thrown around the term once or twice when I probably shouldn't have, myself.

When I hear someone use the word narcissist I don't understand it to literally mean diagnosed narcissistic personality disorder anymore but any of the cluster b traits. Kind of like people say Kleenex for tissue? It's just the most popular one.:tearsofjoy:
 
CindyLou said:
True. It's been over 6 years since Ive had any contact with anyone that I would consider that toxic but I've thrown around the term once or twice when I probably shouldn't have, myself.

When I hear someone use the word narcissist I don't understand it to literally mean diagnosed narcissistic personality disorder anymore but any of the cluster b traits. Kind of like people say Kleenex for tissue? It's just the most popular one.:tearsofjoy:
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OK, I totally get the generic thing, and the fact you don't take it to mean an actual disorder. And honestly, it's totally cool if you've taken the time to observe and come to understand that person rather than jumping to conclusions.

However, it still doesn't change the fact that I don't think it's fair to look at someone, notice that they're being outgoing and forward on social media and say to yourself: BEWARE ALL YE COMPASSIONATE FOLK. THIS IS A NARCISSIST. STAY AWAY!!!!

Because, like it or not, it is a loaded label and it comes with its own slew of negative expectations and judgments. If you read enough literature about introversion, sensitivity or a lack of confidence, you'll see the narcissist thing come up as part and parcel with those subjects. Not that it isn't relevant-- it is a well supported and researched fact that many such people have traits that draw out the narcissist--but its troublesome how the majority of these articles are often written in such a way to suggest that anyone who isn't shy and sensitive is a narcissist and that the shy, compassionate folk should be careful around them because they can be taken advantage of!

Extroverts are a natural target in this respect and I see a lot of card-carrying introverts/shy sensitives demonize those who are outgoing and confident out of the fear of being victimized. Or, alternatively, they shun celebrating themselves and developing healthy confidence because they worry about becoming narcissistic. After all, if everyone is using the word to describe somebody they know, this narcissism thing must be some kind of epidemic. And if you post one too many selfies on your FB, it might get you too! :fearscream:
 
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atree said:
OK, I totally get the generic thing, and the fact you don't take it to mean an actual disorder. And honestly, it's totally cool if you've taken the time to observe and come to understand that person rather than jumping to conclusions.

However, it still doesn't change the fact that I don't think it's fair to look at someone, notice that they're being outgoing and forward on social media and say to yourself: BEWARE ALL YE COMPASSIONATE FOLK. THIS IS A NARCISSIST. STAY AWAY!!!!

Because, like it or not, it is a loaded label and it comes with its own slew of negative expectations and judgments. If you read enough literature about introversion, sensitivity or a lack of confidence, you'll see the narcissist thing come up as part and parcel with those subjects. Not that it isn't relevant-- it is a well supported and researched fact that many such people have traits that draw out the narcissist--but its troublesome how the majority of these articles are often written in such a way to suggest that anyone who isn't shy and sensitive is a narcissist and that the shy, compassionate folk should be careful around them because they can be taken advantage of!

Extroverts are a natural target in this respect and I see a lot of card-carrying introverts/shy sensitives demonize those who are outgoing and confident out of the fear of being victimized. Or, alternatively, they shun celebrating themselves and developing healthy confidence because they worry about becoming narcissistic. After all, if everyone is using the word to describe somebody they know, this narcissism thing must be some kind of epidemic. And if you post one too many selfies on your FB, it might get you too! :fearscream:
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Completely agree
 
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