The toxic connection between empath and narcissist

[Deleted member 10171]

People are drawn to INFJs at times, as they want help with their issues, and if we are not careful others can exploit our wish to 'fix people'. I think your intuition is telling you something more than just 'selfies'. If I get 'bad vibes' about people ? I steer clear of them. When I have ignored my intuition, I have nearly always regretted it. Unless you feel your intuition has been 'off' for some reason, or there is something else, I'd tread carefully, whether she is a narcissist or not.

James you literally took the words out of my mouth. The only thing I would add is that even though I may get "bad vibes" about people, I don't automatically steer clear of them (unless my intuition double kicks me in the stomach and I then know for definite that something is not right). However, I still try to remain open - I just don't allow the person to see all of me (there will still be small bursts of my natural energy coming through in the interaction but if that niggling feeling doesn't shift then I've closed shop - temporarily....until something changes). I still cling to hope (sometimes to my detriment) but I would rather do that then to totally give up on a person. I guess it's all about balance and ensuring we take appropriate responsibility and care for self and that we don't get lost in our natural inclination and pull to feel empathy for others....something we have to consciously be aware of on a daily basis (I do anyway).

 

[Deleted member 10171]

The thread is not only about my situation. I'm also interested in learning more of others' experiences with this interaction.

I've never been in a romantic relationship with a narcissist (only once with a sociopath and that was enough) so unable to bring anything valuable within this context. I do however have a brother-in-law who I believe has NPD (known for 18 years) and can list endless dramas and experiences (my own and others) but (sorry) it doesn't come naturally for me to share unless I absolutely need to unload/vent. I'm really conscious about how much of my energy I expend to someone who essentially swallows you up in their "black hole of a spirit" as you described.

I have written sporadically on this forum about some of my experiences so hopefully you might be able to find something useful. As James said, "tread carefully" and my only advice would be to get to KNOW this girl (regardless of whether she is a narcissist or not) and also look introspectively at your own internal responses and reactions as to why you are attracted to certain "narcissistic" traits (it's hard to do but well worth it).

With regard to maintaining a healthy relationship with a narcissist (and it is possible) - my main advice would be to maintain a strict, consistent and firm boundary. Narcissists will cleverly and craftily push your boundaries using a variety of methods so you always need to push back with sensitivity.

The article you posted is a good read. I like what the author wrote here...."As an INFJ, one of our biggest challenges is learning to honor ourselves and our instincts above the appearance of the ideal—in order to achieve the real thing."

Hope you have lots of success. I'm open for you to ask any specific questions - if that would be helpful for you.

 

[invisible]

I don't think taking selfies is remarkable. Someone on this forum was mentioning recently that the ability to take selfies is an expression of healthy confidence in current youth culture, which has nothing to do with narcissism. Everyone takes selfies now, it's just how people express themselves.

When someone's selfies are getting likes, that doesn't mean that they are hungry for those likes. Maybe they enjoy it, that doesn't mean they're actively hungry for it, or needing it in any sense. It's impossible to know the extent to which they are hungering after the attention or thriving on the attention specifically. The social application facilitates likes, and people use the like button. People take selfies because it's part of the culture, people like them because it's part of the culture. It's hardly an expression of modesty, but it's not necessarily an indication of narcissism either.

I knew a man who I believe would qualify for a diagnosis of NPD, his behaviour was unpredictable and frightening. He was manipulative, moderating social situations to revolve around him, unable to allow anyone else to have attention. He would interrupt me when I was speaking, with absolute nonsense, in order to draw attention back to himself. He talked to others like dirt. I disliked him immediately. A girl I was friends with wanted very much for us all to be a friendship group, and so I gave his friendship a chance, but it didn't work out for me. Normally I would have remained distantly polite. This kind of thing is much different from taking selfies. Being close to a truly narcissistic person is frightening, scary, because they're bullies and manipulative and they need to be in control.

I don't think that an empathic person can be drawn to a narcissistic person, at least not as a function of their empathy. There's nothing really there in the narcissist to connect with emotionally, just a black hole of nothing. Empathy is truly feeling the emotions of other people, and it can't operate when there's nothing there to feel. I think that when people are drawn to narcissistic people, it's for some reason other than empathy. Such as insecurity.

 

[Night Owl]

Some good discussion has been had thus far.

Language is a funny thing. It's also a powerful thing.

Perhaps we can distinguish between one who is a narcissist and one who is narcissistic. They both tend to be used interchangeably in common speak, but as @atree pointed out narcissist is a loaded term.

A narcissist would refer to one who would be considered to have a diagnosable mental disorder - narcissistic personality disorder:

in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism. [Source]

Note also, that narcissist is a noun, and so it's describing certain traits - i.e. narcissistic traits - that have became or are so pronounced that they dominate the very personality of the person themselves, and partly defines who they are as a person and their correlating mind set, attitudes, values and behaviors. I would avoid saying, totally defines them, since I still like to believe that their is an underlying fundamental vestige of goodness that remains in such persons - a crack of light (greater or less in some I'm sure) allowing for the possibility of some form of redemption. Although that opens up another whole aspect - that certain, or almost all dare I say, mental illnesses or disorders are not intentionally and directly willed, and hence the person who suffers from a particular disorder is not morally at fault for simply having such a condition. They would only be morally deficient - unethical persons - to the extent they freely chose wrong behaviours, a culpability which could be diminished more so or less so depending on various factors that might partly inhibit volitional freedom, including the condition itself. It's beyond me how NPD would fair in this regards but this principle probably applies. Yet it gets messy if immoral behaviours are part of a diagnosis - still, a distinction can be made between the condition and the immoral actions made by one suffering from a condition, actions which are signs of such a condition as opposed to been actions determined by such a condition and which are therefore synonymous with it. Now a can of worms has been opened as this could be discussed for ages! (Sorry, tangent!).

Whereas we can reserve the term narcissistic for general speak. Since unlike saying this person is a narcissist (which can be a value judgement, but I don't think it always is - one could simply be discerning a plain reality) which generally tends to create an US and THEM dichotomy, and can be used as an escape clause to avoid compassionate interactions with, or openness to, such labeled persons, the term narcissistic simply describes traits had or perceived to be had by another, and it is a more helpful, accurate and potentially less divisive term because every person on earth has narcissistic traits - i.e. our very selves! Thus if someone seems to be highly narcissistic instead of saying - "That person is a narcissist and so I will keep vigilant in dealing with them"; we could say: "That person seems to be overly narcissistic, and so I will keep vigilant in dealing with them" OR "That person seems to be narcissistic etc." Keeping in mind that narcissistic is an adjective - thus it is describing (realities or perceptions had) as opposed to defining or labeling (or diagnosing).

narcissistic - having or showing an excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one's physical appearance.

I'm glad I read through these posts and that @Ryso89 started the thread, as I'll resolve henceforth to keep in mind these distinctions.

 

[Scientia]

Psychology Today has some very good information on this subject. The true narcissist is rare but those people who have narcissistic traits without the actual disorder can be damaging to sensitive types like INFJs. We are the mirror they want to look into because we tend to cull out the best parts of people and reflect back unconditional positive regard. Narcissistic people need that because they are constantly seeking approval by any means including manipulation and social climbing as they see it. If you are an attractive INFJ and seem impressive to them, narcissistic people will attach themselves to you and use you until you are no longer useful. You, as the INFJ, might think you can help the narcissistic person with your awesomeness and unconditional positive regard. This is likely the case and the narcissistic person will be much better and feel more secure while with you. Unfortunately, this can take a huge toll on you and can almost destroy your sense of self worth.

 

[James]

Psychology Today has some very good information on this subject. The true narcissist is rare but those people who have narcissistic traits without the actual disorder can be damaging to sensitive types like INFJs. We are the mirror they want to look into because we tend to cull out the best parts of people and reflect back unconditional positive regard. Narcissistic people need that because they are constantly seeking approval by any means including manipulation and social climbing as they see it. If you are an attractive INFJ and seem impressive to them, narcissistic people will attach themselves to you and use you until you are no longer useful. You, as the INFJ, might think you can help the narcissistic person with your awesomeness and unconditional positive regard. This is likely the case and the narcissistic person will be much better and feel more secure while with you. Unfortunately, this can take a huge toll on you and can almost destroy your sense of self worth.

I agree with most of that, but for myself when people ask me my opinion or for feedback, although I try hard to be diplomatic and constructive, I don't miss out the negatives when appropriate. I don't ever do that to be hurtful, and if the occasion is right, I may hold back somewhat. I just feel I am not really helping if I don't give the full picture. As positive as INFJ's tend to be, I think we also 'see the dark side' when we see people's behaviors, even in our own.

The sad thing I have noticed is that a lot of people tend to quickly believe any negative or critical thing you say to them, and are often way harder on themselves than others would be. Conversely they often feel far less confident accepting or believing positive things, unless you are very specific, so they can tell you have looked closely at the matter and are not just being 'nice'.

I totally agree that people with narcissistic tendencies can be very corrosive, and unduly critical of others. It is just their attempt to gain a 'sense of power' and assuage their own insecurities. To those people I would like to thank them, by blowing a large raspberry as a token of my esteem..

 

[Sandie33]

Yep...

He was manipulative, moderating social situations to revolve around him, unable to allow anyone else to have attention.

To a degree. Took a online test once. Most "normal' folks test in around 12-15 in 20 according to that particular test. I laughed at my result of 6.

because every person on earth has narcissistic traits -

Yep...was in a relationship with a fella that tried to 'erase me'. The first 6 months of my 4 year term everything was wonderful. Then the rules were laid out and I was expected to follow. One being no contact with friends or family. It took 3 1/2 years to get out. They love bomb, appologize, beg & plead, say they're nothing without you...etc, etc, etc. When you wake up out of that type of situation it can leave you feeling empty and very alone. I've spent the last two years reconnecting and repairing damage with family & friends.

Unfortunately, this can take a huge toll on you and can almost destroy your sense of self worth.

Yes, it sure does.
..............
I don't believe Empaths are drawn to Narcissits...I believe actual Narcissits learn to parrot empathic behavior and use it as a tool to hook & reel the empath in.

 

[koizora]

Being close to a truly narcissistic person is frightening, scary, because they're bullies and manipulative and they need to be in control.

I don't think that an empathic person can be drawn to a narcissistic person, at least not as a function of their empathy. There's nothing really there in the narcissist to connect with emotionally, just a black hole of nothing. Empathy is truly feeling the emotions of other people, and it can't operate when there's nothing there to feel. I think that when people are drawn to narcissistic people, it's for some reason other than empathy. Such as insecurity.

I agree with everything, especially what you said here^.

Also, figuring out if someone truly is a narcissist is not easy, even more so if you don't know them that well. Only when the narcissist is very close to you is when you start to think something is very wrong. I'm talking about true narcissists here, not people with narcissistic tendencies. I know because I have been living with a true narcissist for 18 years now, my stepdad. My mom, although an empath, walked into his trap (as I may call it, it truly feels like a trap), in a period when she was very insecure.

About my own experiences:
Having a true narcissist close to you is a nightmare. When I stumbled across an article about narcissists a few years ago, it hit the nail on the head. My stepdad is a classic narcissist. He seems charming to a lot of people in our town and he is even well known due to his profession (we live in a small town). There are even people who put him on a pedestal. However, there is a lot of pathological lying, twisting words and situations into his own benefit. When I was only 7 years old, he accused me of things he actually did himself. Used matches lingering around somewhere? He didn't do it, it must've been his stepdaughter playing with fire.. When actually he was the one secretly smoking and did not want my mom to know. He also always tried to compete with me for my mom's attention and constantly criticizes me. He has no emotions, no compassion, nothing. I don't want to go into too many details, so I'll leave it at that. True narcissists can really destroy people and the only way I'm trying to cope with it now is by ignoring him as long as I still live at home.

If you feel something is not right about her- be careful. I'm not saying you should label her as a narcissist right away, as someone already said they are rare. If you see red flags coming up along the way, don't give in.

 

[Night Owl]

All the advice you need.

 

[Vicarious]

What you are describing sounds more like possibly histrionic personality disorder or just classic low self-esteem as opposed to NPD, however it is impossible to say for sure without being evaluated by a professional.

The difference between histrionic and narcissistic PDs as follows:

Histrionic personality disorder
People with this condition engage in persistent attention-seeking behaviors that include innapropriate sexual behavior and exaggerated emotions. They can be oversensitive about themselves and constantly seek reasurrance or approval from others.

Excessive need to be the center of attention, low tolerance for frustration, blaming others for failures are also characteristics of the histrionic personality.

Narcissistic personality disorder
Narcissistic personalities have a blown up perception of themselves and an excessive desire for attention and admiration. Individuals with this disorder have a false sense of entitlement and little respect for other people's feelings. They are oversensitive to criticism and often blame others for their failures.

Prone to outbursts of anger and irritability, the narcissistic personality tends to be manipulative in interspersonal relationships. But deep beneath the surface lies a vulnerable self-esteem, susceptible to depression and feelings of inferiority.


It can be very difficult for the untrained to differentiate between the two because they are quite similar. How I remember the difference is the narcissist tends to be manipulative and desires admiration though actions and deeds-whether they deserve it or not, or play the constant victim. Histrionics prefer what I call "physical attention"-as seen through constant selfies, sexual behaviors, or being "drama queens". And as atree said, one has to be careful with labeling people with terms such as narcissist, etc. because they do come with negative connotations.

 

[Littlelissa]

My apologies if something like this has been created in this thread or any of the others, but I didn't see one.

There is a repeating pattern in my life, a connection I can't put my finger on, or at least, I can't explain the psychology behind, and that is the obvious connection between empath and narcissist. What are your experiences with narcissistic people? Relationships, interactions, everything, I want to know. I want to dig behind and beneath the psych of this interplay.

My ex was a narcissist. One of my friends is too, and we are not extremely close for obvious reasons.

Lately, a girl in my life who has these tendencies is drawn towards me, and I to her. I can't explain this interest beyond physical, but I know she lacks the self esteem that I have for myself and her social media activity has made it strikingly obvious that she is addicted to "likes" and validation from as many people as she can persuade to give her attention. She is a calm and benevolent soul, a very pretty spirit - but her need for acceptance and her million selfies tells me a deeper story about what's going on in her mind. This behavior is so toxic to me. I don't understand why us two types are drawn towards each other. It's like some kind of magnetic pull.

Yes, it's very unsettling, the pull between an empathic INFJ and a narcissist. Sadly I have experience of this. I was raised by a narcissist and I have had various relationships with narcissists following this. It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario with me, I think 'was I first an empath INFJ, or was I raised to be this way?' I knew my mother was pretty crazy, but I had no word for it and never understood what it was until a few years ago.I have been trained by a narcissist to put other's need before my own, and these people read it in me and keep coming back. Anyhow happily I'm wising up to this, and I have everything in my resource to change this unhappy scenario.
My advice is to read as much as possible and try and understand the phenomenon. My understanding is that INFJs have natural empathy and are therefore adaptable, and narcissists can be adaptable because they have a 'fake' persona. A psychopath/ narcissist can show the same camelian qualities as we can but they are looking for what they can take, not for what they can give. It is very disturbing and well worth getting your head around. As empathic, people persons, I imagine INFJs have a high rate of susceptibility to this BS. Which is a shame because were usually very good at spotting BS. However, you have to remember that the narcissist does not have empathy. Plus they have an alarming amount of unsavoury behaviours such as splitting, projection, gas lighting (crazy making), love bombing-discarding etc. there inherently insane and unwell vampire demons (truly a person without empathy has to be viewed in this way). I do not say that lightly because I loved the very soul of some of these folk but have had to become wise to their ways. Hope that helps? Maybe not at all.
The best escape, no contact, education and cutting the energetic link. Also trust your gut. Your body usually tells you when someone's behaviour and image don't add up. Listen to the red flags. Also honour yourself, a thing that irks you, don't ignore it because it's your nature to be kind. Use your natural intuition.

 

[Happy Phantom]

A good read for those trying to escape the bullshit and move forward. Do not waste valuable time with these people. Yes it can be difficult for empaths to cut off all ties, but it beats being flung around like a yo-yo while attempting to reach someone who doesn’t think they have a serious problem.

 

[Disguised]

Will try and give my short experience of falling for the needs of a sociopath/narcissist father of mine.

What I saw in this guy was a lot of wasted potential due to his unsolved traumas, and tried to help him be ok with the past like my mother did for a good time. I couldn't care less at that time what they had been through and what he had done, not totally accepting the fact that this guy had almost killed my brother and my mother before I was born. What I really needed was my father anyways. Seeing the good in these kinds of people is my problem, and seeing them as highly interesting and somewhat powerful individuals too. He was logically brilliant and clever, but cold as a man could ever be. With me though it was somewhat different, like he was holding back. It felt good and I was thinking that I'm progressing with this impossible repair, but as I noticed I was doing no good at all but patting the head of a lying sociopath I knew I had to leave. Same mental and physical violence continued, but not in front of my eyes.

Later on I haven't been around any genuine narcissistic individuals. Last time I met one ended up in a fight. Only thing that remained was the interest in disordered people but I can't stand a Class A narcissist at all nowadays.

 

[Misty]

I was married to one of these beasts.. He was avoidant and cold. Zero affection once he had me. In the start he flooded me.. I won't tell you what he did. But suffice to say I left him dec 2015 and the need for police was present.

I have attracted my share of guys like him.. I DO think they are very, very drawn to our INFJ flame.. like moths that are devoid of a soul, dementors hungry for the light that glows inside of us.. That light radiates out of us like a signal and they see it.. They smell it.. and hungry, they draw us in, hoping to feed off our flame...

Mine was also a sociopath... I feel all the stories posted here in the pit of my stomach. Thank you for sharing. Here is a therapeutic piece I wrote after leaving him.. A portrayal of NPD..

 

[Lurk]

Yep..
..............
I don't believe Empaths are drawn to Narcissits...I believe actual Narcissits learn to parrot empathic behavior and use it as a tool to hook & reel the empath in.

Yep. I've had so, so many dealings with these types of people, and they typically pursue compliant, "nice" people who assume others are "nice" as well.

I don't like to parse labels too much: Slightly egotistical or full-blown NPD "sufferer" (*snort*), it's all the same to me. Pass.

I also think that the personality disordered are not particularly hard to identify.