The punitive society

[Lark]

I have a book on Erich Fromm and criminology which discusses the idea of a punitive society and I wondered if anyone else would be interested in discussing some of the thinking included in it.

The central point is one I've heard before, although usually in relation to social services, helping services and social spending of all descriptions besides crime and punishment spending, and that is that despite the levels of present investment and possible increases in demand and consequently spending, and tax to enable it, there's been no decline in or disappearence of crime.

This is dodgy territory with lots of vagaries and gross generalisations I'll grant. I know that the kinds of crime committed are not the same from one era and time or one society and culture to another and that is important. Equally that not all social transgressions are considered criminal, some people want certain offences decriminalised and others want others to be criminalised or penalised more.

Although one of the things I found interesting was the idea of there being a sado-masochistic social character, Fromm developed this idea in a book called Escape From Freedom, republished as Fear of Freedom, in which he suggested that people acquiesce in their oppression but give vent to pent up feelings of grievance in sadistic manners, one of the authors in the criminology book theorises that punitive societies or criminal justice systems provide just such a means or outlet for people, so support for capital punishment could be fed by displaced rage and anger about social structure.

What do you think about this? Are the social responses or sentiments arising about certain sorts of offending disproportionate as a result of rage about social structure or is that all a matter of over thinking things?

 

[Skarekrow]

I have a book on Erich Fromm and criminology which discusses the idea of a punitive society and I wondered if anyone else would be interested in discussing some of the thinking included in it.

The central point is one I've heard before, although usually in relation to social services, helping services and social spending of all descriptions besides crime and punishment spending, and that is that despite the levels of present investment and possible increases in demand and consequently spending, and tax to enable it, there's been no decline in or disappearence of crime.

This is dodgy territory with lots of vagaries and gross generalisations I'll grant. I know that the kinds of crime committed are not the same from one era and time or one society and culture to another and that is important. Equally that not all social transgressions are considered criminal, some people want certain offences decriminalised and others want others to be criminalised or penalised more.

Although one of the things I found interesting was the idea of there being a sado-masochistic social character, Fromm developed this idea in a book called Escape From Freedom, republished as Fear of Freedom, in which he suggested that people acquiesce in their oppression but give vent to pent up feelings of grievance in sadistic manners, one of the authors in the criminology book theorises that punitive societies or criminal justice systems provide just such a means or outlet for people, so support for capital punishment could be fed by displaced rage and anger about social structure.

What do you think about this? Are the social responses or sentiments arising about certain sorts of offending disproportionate as a result of rage about social structure or is that all a matter of over thinking things?

I would agree with the “fear of freedom” idea...there are those who obviously are more comfortable being in a prison life than a life in “normal” society.
Though I am very much in disagreement with the US version of incarceration....especially how we have the largest percentage of people incarcerated in the world.
Time and time again it has been proven that positive reinforcement works by leaps and bounds better than negative reinforcement....and though I am in agreement that someone who commits a criminal act should in fact be “punished” and removed temporarily or possibly permanently from society in order to keep some semblance of order and peacefulness...I feel that we should be doing more in prison to help said individual learn and prosper before releasing them.
As it stands now, a good portion of criminals actually learn to be better criminals and make criminal connections in prison....I am not advocating for solitary prison terms but instead I am advocating for a better way to be offered to them.
Socio-economically most of those in prison DO in fact have a better life IN prison than out of prison...especially after the initial incarceration and subsequent release only to find that no one wants to hire a former inmate...so what other options does someone like that have? They don’t have the money to support their own basic needs and they know, and have the skills to go back to being an even more successful criminal than before they were caught.
So it’s no surprise that we have so many repeat offenders.
I think a line should also be drawn between those offenders who commit crimes in order to live as opposed to those criminals who commit crimes such as rape where there is clearly a disconnect and apathy toward the effect on their victims.

 

[muir]

Prisoners are often subjected to violence and rape in prisons; we as a society don't even protect the people in our care

Thats a form of hypocrisy. We say 'you are a rapist or a violent person go to jail' knowing full well that they will likely get physically abused or raped there

We subject people to the very thing we condemned in them

Nowadays prisons and prison services are privatised and the corporations that run them now profit from the incarceration of people...its a business

 

[Skarekrow]

Prisoners are often subjected to violence and rape in prisons; we as a society don't even protect the people in our care

Thats a form of hypocrisy. We say 'you are a rapist or a violent person go to jail' knowing full well that they will likely get physically abused or raped there

We subject people to the very thing we condemned in them

Nowadays prisons and prison services are privatised and the corporations that run them now profit from the incarceration of people...its a business

They have quotas to meet....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/19/private-prison-quotas_n_3953483.html

 

[muir]

They have quotas to meet....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/19/private-prison-quotas_n_3953483.html

Its all going crazy man and when you try and say ''its going crazy'' some people say ''no youre crazy''

 

[Cornerstone]

THAT is one of the scariest things that is happening in the modern era.

When the same happens to psychiatric wards it'll be even worse. At the moment, it is still medication in the community that is preferred.
At some point, however, it will turn back to containment but 'without the mistakes of the past'. Then it will be serious.
You can not take meds if they're not necessary but if there is an increase in hospital beds (now there is a massive shortage), it could lead to sectioning-for-profit.

 

[muir]

THAT is one of the scariest things that is happening in the modern era.

When the same happens to psychiatric wards it'll be even worse. At the moment, it is still medication in the community that is preferred.
At some point, however, it will turn back to containment but 'without the mistakes of the past'. Then it will be serious.
You can not take meds if they're not necessary but if there is an increase in hospital beds (now there is a massive shortage), it could lead to sectioning-for-profit.

I'm pretty sure someone once said to me that psychiatry takes up more beds in the NHS than any other area of medicine

Its already big business. It is about containment not treatment

Big pharma are cleaning up

A good vid from James Corbett

[video=youtube;X6J_7PvWoMw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6J_7PvWoMw[/video]

 

[Skarekrow]

Its all going crazy man and when you try and say ''its going crazy'' some people say ''no youre crazy''

Isn’t that perverse!?
They actually have quotas to maintain a certain level of prisoners...something is VERY wrong with that idea.
Things like this happen in the US and around the world because the voice and power of the people has been systematically silenced through the accepted corporate money infiltrating democracy.
The real question is....how far down the ladder does the quota go? To the judges sentencing the criminals? The police? Is there a prison lottery with all our names on it drawn at random making it just a matter of time?
We already know that there are socio-economic and race issues that make a person more predisposed to harsher sentencing.

 

[Cornerstone]

I'm pretty sure someone once said to me that psychiatry takes up more beds in the NHS than any other area of medicine

Its already big business. It is about containment not treatment

Big pharma are cleaning up

A good vid from James Corbett

No doubt. But the 'ethos' is one of 'in-and-out' with a heavy reliance on medication to resolve symptoms without touching the underlying issues.

Big pharma is the biggest winner for sure. But meds are not inherently bad, but ideally they are for acute crises not long-term.

But the 'in-and-out' aspect was a reaction against the institutionalisation caused by containment in asylums. They went to the other extreme and I anticipate there will be a change of opinion within these circles that advocates a middle ground. If this is hijacked by the same groups, we will long for the days when one could be free and 'trusted' to self-medicate.

 

[muir]

No doubt. But the 'ethos' is one of 'in-and-out' with a heavy reliance on medication to resolve symptoms without touching the underlying issues.

Big pharma is the biggest winner for sure. But meds are not inherently bad, but ideally they are for acute crises not long-term.

But the 'in-and-out' aspect was a reaction against the institutionalisation caused by containment in asylums. They went to the other extreme and I anticipate there will be a change of opinion within these circles that advocates a middle ground. If this is hijacked by the same groups, we will long for the days when one could be free and 'trusted' to self-medicate.

Oh yeah they have no intention of touching on the underlying problems! To do that would be to uncover the fact their system isn't working!

Yeah they relabelled the asylums 'mental health hospitals' but they still house a lot of people

The old asylums sometimes (not from the bedlam era obviously!) had some good things going for them. They were often set in lovely grounds and provided an oasis away from the tumult of society

RD Laing found that schizophrenic female patients removed from their normal environment and allowed some time off in a relaxed an d safe environment often recovered and then relapsed when they returned to their usual environment

In my mind the mental health problems of our society are related to the way we are living our lives...to what we prioritise as a society and to what we celebrate and to what we demonise

This current system is really set up to benefit the few at the top and unsuprisingly comes at a cost to the rest of society

 

[Cornerstone]

In my mind the mental health problems of our society are related to the way we are living our lives...to what we prioritise as a society and to what we celebrate and to what we demonise

I agree to a degree. I see the rise in what are called 'personality disorders' to be due to this.
This is not an acute 'illness', it is chronically warped perception of reality...often combined with extreme neediness and inauthenticity.
Medication does nothing because they are not psychotic and therapy doesn't help because they are not honest.

But boy howdy, do they just love the attention they get whilst in hospital! These are the ones who try to get sectioned.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Hatred begets hatred - the eye for an eye mentality. Whether societal resentment to subjugation leads to vicarious satisfaction at the administration of punishment is perhaps a stretch. Certainly, there is a certain purification of society's conscience when a criminal is punished: the scape goat, which bears the guilt of many.

This whole subject reminds me something I read years ago by St Justin Martyr. He said something to the effect that Christianity should be legalised in the Roman empire because it reduced the need for policing. He said this was the case because the followers of Christ were moved to live in an orderly, peaceful and honest way more from a love of virtue, than from fear of being caught doing otherwise.

 

[muir]

I agree to a degree. I see the rise in what are called 'personality disorders' to be due to this.
This is not an acute 'illness', it is chronically warped perception of reality...often combined with extreme neediness and inauthenticity.
Medication does nothing because they are not psychotic and therapy doesn't help because they are not honest.

But boy howdy, do they just love the attention they get whilst in hospital! These are the ones who try to get sectioned.

Its a tragedy that our current system does not meet their needs in another way

Humans are social animals that have evolved over a long period of time to be a part of a wider community that recognises them for their personal quirks, foibles, strengths, abilities or lack thereof...a place they belong

Everything about the modern industrial society has been about destroying that which i think was epitomised in the words of that champion of neoliberalism Margaret Thatcher when she said 'there is no such thing as society'

 

[muir]

The tabloid press has always pushed capital punishment and is clearly trying to do what fromm is talking about in terms of using it as a release valve; but thats not the people...thats the press

The people then parrot what they are told in the press

They do this with many things

So for example as the economy worsens they will blame immigrants more and more to try and divert negative energy towards them and awya from the el-ites themselves

Also sport acts as a collective release valve. People go to the football each week, hurl abuse at the referee, go and have some drinks and then go home to bed...it lets off steam...bread and circus...its an old trick

Pubs and clubs and the binge culture are a big societal release valve in the UK

This is where conscious awareness plays a part because a person who is conscious of these manipulations no more falls foul of them....they may of course have to find a way to escape the pressure cooker of modern society or find their own productive release valve

 

[Cornerstone]

Its a tragedy that our current system does not meet their needs in another way

Humans are social animals that have evolved over a long period of time to be a part of a wider community that recognises them for their personal quirks, foibles, strengths, abilities or lack thereof...a place they belong

Everything about the modern industrial society has been about destroying that which i think was epitomised in the words of that champion of neoliberalism Margaret Thatcher when she said 'there is no such thing as society'

Well, there are a few places that effectively say 'you're here for two years no matter what so you don't have to pretend anymore'.

But they are everywhere in the mental health system and they do need to be treated differently to acutely ill people.

There is no help for young people with personality disorders, however. They cannot be diagnosed as such until age 18, only termed to be 'emerging' as a PD.

The term 'PD' is also a massive perjorative within the mental health system and this is such a shame because there will be more and more of them.

You need some patience to deal with them though because the only way to treat them is to recognise the fucked up side of yourself and see that what they have done, often through no real fault of their own, is take all of those horrible feelings we all have, run wild with them and then buried the evidence. I don't even know if they can be 'cured'.

 

[muir]

Well, there are a few places that effectively say 'you're here for two years no matter what so you don't have to pretend anymore'.

But they are everywhere in the mental health system and they do need to be treated differently to acutely ill people.

There is no help for young people with personality disorders, however. They cannot be diagnosed as such until age 18, only termed to be 'emerging' as a PD.

The term 'PD' is also a massive perjorative within the mental health system and this is such a shame because there will be more and more of them.

You need some patience to deal with them though because the only way to treat them is to recognise the fucked up side of yourself and see that what they have done, often through no real fault of their own, is take all of those horrible feelings we all have, run wild with them and then buried the evidence. I don't even know if they can be 'cured'.

yeah totally

is the cure in trying to treat each case at a time or is it in trying to change the system in order to stem the flow of distressed people?

Or both at the same time?

The el-ite would argue for the first option of course because they don't want system change unless its to a new system that they approve of

 

[Skarekrow]

I feel that the current thought of generations (some more than other’s) being more ‘entitled’ is less about personal greed or envy of what others have, and more to do with people feeling generally dissatisfied with their life in general....something that was once there and is now missing....an interconnectedness. Some turn to drugs to drown it all out, while others seeks to change the cards dealt to them even at the expense of others.
Greed, envy, entitlement, dissatisfaction, and apathy have all been promoted in our current society as something not to be looked down upon but acceptable feelings that we ‘should’ have.
The priorities of our current society do not promote sharing, love, personal freedom, gratitude, education and intelligence, art, science, philosophy, and equality.
Why not? Where did it all go so wrong....or was it a slow creep?

 

[Cornerstone]

yeah totally

is the cure in trying to treat each case at a time or is it in trying to change the system in order to stem the flow of distressed people?

Or both at the same time?

The el-ite would argue for the first option of course because they don't want system change unless its to a new system that they approve of

Both at the same time.

However, I would say that the 'individual treatment' should be about building true self-esteem and reminding them that goodness does exist. It's long term, because pain and negativity is the default that they go back to when people stop being kind to them. They need to learn to be kind to themselves, I think. But what is the motivation? Because you're worth it? Well, oftentimes their entire life experience is testament to the fact that they are not worth it. How do you undo that without bullshitting them and how do you release them back into that environment and expect it not to break them again?

Also, there needs to be massive education for care workers to not resent them in the meantime. Yes, they are annoying attention-seekers who block beds and indirectly cause harm to others. They need their own care but, you're right, we can't give it to them because their condition is a reflection of society at large and so to admit we have failed these people and are failing more and more as the days go by is to admit that we have a failing society. I can admit this, but there are many who cannot.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I feel that the current thought of generations (some more than other’s) being more ‘entitled’ is less about personal greed or envy of what others have, and more to do with people feeling generally dissatisfied with their life in general....something that was once there and is now missing....an interconnectedness. Some turn to drugs to drown it all out, while others seeks to change the cards dealt to them even at the expense of others.
Greed, envy, entitlement, dissatisfaction, and apathy have all been promoted in our current society as something not to be looked down upon but acceptable feelings that we ‘should’ have.
The priorities of our current society do not promote sharing, love, personal freedom, gratitude, education and intelligence, art, science, philosophy, and equality.
Why not? Where did it all go so wrong....or was it a slow creep?

This has happened in my lifetime (35years).

We are living in a Western society which is transitioning towards being post-Christian... a transition which is almost complete.

What makes Western culture different from other cultures? 35 years ago the answer was: we are a Christian society - this was reflected in very facet of life - not just on Sundays. Public schools would recite opening prayers, as did meetings of government. Legal oaths were made on the Bible, etc. etc.... you get the drift.

Today, what can we say defines Western society? Democracy? - they have that in many other societies. Besides, does having a say define a society? If all we have is our say, but no sense of common values, what are we going to say? Whatever we feel like saying, regardless of whether anyone agrees, or understands - this is a retreat into an isolated sense of expression. All that is left is meaningless, entitled expression.

I'm always harping on about religion - so excuse me for going down that path again - but I grew up in a Christianised society and now that anything remotely Christian has been purged from our societal mind and heart, people are a lot less engaging, or engageable.

 

[Skarekrow]

This has happened in my lifetime (35years).

We are living in a Western society which is transitioning towards being post-Christian... a transition which is almost complete.

What makes Western culture different from other cultures? 35 years ago the answer was: we are a Christian society - this was reflected in very facet of life - not just on Sundays. Public schools would recite opening prayers, as did meetings of government. Legal oaths were made on the Bible, etc. etc.... you get the drift.

Today, what can we say defines Western society? Democracy? - they have that in many other societies. Besides, does having a say define a society? If all we have is our say, but no sense of common values, what are we going to say? Whatever we feel like saying, regardless of whether anyone agrees, or understands - this is a retreat into an isolated sense of expression. All that is left is meaningless, entitled expression.

I'm always harping on about religion - so excuse me for going down that path again - but I grew up in a Christianised society and now that anything remotely Christian has been purged from our societal mind and heart, people are a lot less engaging, or engageable.

I grew up that way as well.
So who is going to define the set of societal values that we should all respect and follow? Clearly not everyone agrees with the typical Christian values that have been laid down...and I don’t think that many of them apply to the circumstances of today.
Any thoughts? Perhaps an amalgam of Christian values and something else?