The line between conspiracy theorists and rational skepticism as a logical analysis | INFJ Forum

The line between conspiracy theorists and rational skepticism as a logical analysis

dogman6126

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May 9, 2014
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Ok so I was reading in some modern philosophical blogs, and came across this. I thought it was very interesting and wanted to share it here. I would really like to hear what some of you people think :)

As some of you may have surmised, I have a passing interest in conspiracy theories. As a philosopher, I am fascinated by some of the fantastical contrivances that slip out of the mouths of people like Alex Jones and David Icke. My fascination stems from genuine curiosity, with specific regard to how anyone could rationalize the world so poorly. Flawed logic, paranoia, and grand schemes are hallmarks of conspiracy theories. It takes a certain instinctual thought process to hear hoofbeats and think zebras.

I'm writing this for two reasons: The first is that this post is a sort of one-way continuation of a discussion between my closest friend and I. The second is this comment which appeared on Gawker this morning:

A true coincidence reveals the lie. In the first instance, a Malaysian Airlines 777 is accidentally shot down by American war game forces in the Pacific, this cannot be admitted to and all that follows is a lie. In the second instance, CIA-backed clandestine forces intentionally down a passenger jet over eastern Ukraine, having primed Western populations to blame Russia over other actors or countries—the intent, to turn the public against Russia and generate all manner of pretexts for open Western-backed isolation/aggression against Russia. However, a great and most unforeseen coincidence occurs, the second 'incident' mirrors the first in such emblematic similarities (i.e. same airline company and airplane type) as to become a flag connecting the two (through the near impossibility of chance and the near certainty of lies) and revealing a web of misdirection, deception, and strategically murderous raisons d'État in a manner that can only be described as an accusatory actus Dei against the American dark state.
The above comment was a response to Aleksander Chan's Malayasian Airline coverage. While easy enough to laugh off for most, the comment is meant to "make us think". It has everything: CIA clandestine activities, shadowy geopolitical war games, something called the American dark state, and French and Latin phrases intended to convey the idea of reason and education to the uninitiated. Run of the mill tropes in conspiracy circles all tend to center around one thing: everything bad that happens is the result of some clandestine activity and is leading up the inevitable condition of slavery of which we all will become a part. Whether it is the NWO conspiracy, 9/11 truth, FEMA, or Reptilians, all of these theories are the result of paranoid delusions.

With regard to the discussion a friend and I were having, it became apparent to me that there has to be some sort of invisible dividing line that separates "paranoid conspiracy theorist" and "rational skeptic". The notion came to me as my friend was stating that he does not hold the 9/11 truth conspiracy to be valid, but that he is skeptical of those people who claim certainty in regards to the United States not having orchestrated the attack. Now, I stopped just short of calling him a pyrrhonian skeptic, but the whole conversation peaked an interest.

In philosophy, I study fringe political philosophy among other things. Two writers / philosophers I greatly enjoy are Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn. More of you are likely familiar with Chomsky's work more so than Zinn's, but these are two men very much cut from the same cloth. The approach they take is critical, calling out the American war machine in its propping up of dictators across the globe, as well as looking behind the curtain at the way the news media manufactures consent. Now if you were to replace the primary terms here (American war machine for American dark state; manufacturing consent for propaganda), it would appear that Zinn and Chomsky toe the line between conspiratorial and skeptical. The primary difference between Zinn, Chomsky and conspiracy theorists is that Zinn and Chomsky are actually taking time to intellectually pursue their ends. Or, put another way, Zinn and Chomsky are rational skeptics.

Rational Skepticism:

Empiricism, the scientific method, and rational skepticism are terms that can be used interchangeably. All three involve the investigation of a problem in order to prove or disprove a hypothesis. Two of these terms (empiricism and rational skepticism) are used in philosophy in much the same way as the scientific method, with the exception being that philosophers will all employ reasonable doubt as a tactic. This is because of the very famous rationalist, Rene Descartes. Cartesian doubt turned philosophy on its head, leading to a great deal of sub-philosophical schools. But perhaps the most important contribution Cartesian doubt made was the advent of empiricism. Empiricism, conjectured by George Berkeley and perfected by David Hume, takes the idea of reasonable doubt and puts it to the test. Essentially, if we have the need to verify the truth of something, then we ought to test the validity of the statement itself in order to know whether or not something is true.

What Hume was talking about was the difference between relations of ideas and matters of fact. Relations of ideas, for the purposes here, can simply be called innate knowledge. Math is something that exists, and 8 x 10 = 80; or, a star is a self-luminous gaseous spheroidal celestial body of great mass which produces energy by means of nuclear fusion reactions (by definition). Matters of fact, on the other hand, are learned by experience. So, you cannot know a matter of fact to be true always. For example, touching a stove will not always result in burning your hand. If the stove is on and hot, you will burn your hand. If the stove is off and cool, then you would not burn your hand. So, relations of ideas are always true, while matters of fact are true as they are experienced.

Now, you're probably wondering why the hell I wrote that. Well, it is to show you the difference in thought processes that go on between we rational people, and those people who like to believe in conspiracies. Conspiracy theorists accept that their contrivance is belonging to the nature of relations of ideas: The Malaysian airline shot down yesterday was the victim of an American plot to prop up the war machine and put us on a path to war with Russia. This statement is not true in and of itself, therefore it is not a relation of ideas. In this case, we must wait to see what unfolds in order to know what is going to happen. Essentially, the Humean cue ball is rolling towards the billiard ball and we are waiting to find out what happens when the cue ball strikes it.

The Dividing Line between Rational Skepticism and Conspiracy theory:

So given what I have stated, it might be apparent that this dividing line, in some way, exists. That Chomsky and Zinn are able to intellectually approach a controversial topic and provide valid reasons for our introspection is testament to the idea that rational skepticism is a reasonable approach. Moreover, that conspiracy theorists reject this approach in favor of unreasoned, ill-informed propagation of batshit insane theories is testament to the fact that people still want to believe in the invisible enemy. However, there is a reason that people like Zinn and Chomsky have difficulty with mass appeal outside of academia and its small umbrella of overlap in mainstream culture.

Conspiracy theorists ruin the whole game for great academics like Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky. Radio hosts like Alex Jones who prop up wild theories of false flag attacks effectively make the public uneasy about trusting people who take the more nuanced approach toward investigating the ills of the world. Nuance and cogency are rendered obsolete when people like Alex Jones are allowed to openly state that the United States intentionally kills its own citizens so that it can begin to rile the dogs of war. Nuance and cogency are replaced by scaremongering and unsoundness.

So where we draw the line between rational skepticism and conspiracy theory has to be based on how blunt one's approach is. Where Zinn and Chomsky tear down the illusion of a beautiful America attempting to help the world using big words and fancy writing, Alex Jones has the openness and blunt prose which is more effective. Rhetoric beats prose every time. So after the first line of information (bought and paid for in our corporate democracy) passes to the public, the next step is to look to what the "real news" is. What aren't they telling us about X? And doesn't it just seem more obvious that 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by the Bush administration in order to rile up the dogs of war and set us on a path to Iraq and Afghanistan? Well, no. That's not rational. But, what if the 9/11 terror attacks were retribution for decades long imperialist foreign policy by the United States and its allies? Well that seems to make more sense.

So what this all comes down to is this: A conspiracy theory is an irrational, instinctual thought process which puts to the fore the greatest fears in our minds. The conspiracy theorist is deluded into believing that the fear they feel is the fear everyone else feels, and they find avenues of opening up the dark recesses of our minds to the "truth". The rational skeptic is that person who intellectually approaches a problem, investigates the problem rationally, deduces a conclusion, and affirms or rejects the hypothesis. The skeptic and the conspiracy theorist are, for all intents and purposes, in each others company, but the fine line that separates them is ultimately logic. They both hear hoofbeats, but only one thinks horses.

Here is the original source
http://observationdeck.io9.com/the-...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
 
"Conspiracy Theorist" is it so strange that one person of power would collaborate with another in order to benefit both parties?
 
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I'm sure some people noticed the similarity between this post and the other thread asking why do people believe conspiracy theories. I almost posted it there, but I decided to do a new thread going we can switch to a more philosophical approach.

In philosophy, I study fringe political philosophy among other things. Two writers / philosophers I greatly enjoy are Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn. More of you are likely familiar with Chomsky's work more so than Zinn's, but these are two men very much cut from the same cloth. The approach they take is critical, calling out the American war machine in its propping up of dictators across the globe, as well as looking behind the curtain at the way the news media manufactures consent. Now if you were to replace the primary terms here (American war machine for American dark state; manufacturing consent for propaganda), it would appear that Zinn and Chomsky toe the line between conspiratorial and skeptical. The primary difference between Zinn, Chomsky and conspiracy theorists is that Zinn and Chomsky are actually taking time to intellectually pursue their ends. Or, put another way, Zinn and Chomsky are rational skeptics.

This specific paragraph really outlines the similarity of the discussion in the other thread abd those post.

Conspiracy theorists ruin the whole game for great academics like Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky. Radio hosts like Alex Jones who prop up wild theories of false flag attacks effectively make the public uneasy about trusting people who take the more nuanced approach toward investigating the ills of the world. Nuance and cogency are rendered obsolete when people like Alex Jones are allowed to openly state that the United States intentionally kills its own citizens so that it can begin to rile the dogs of war. Nuance and cogency are replaced by scaremongering and unsoundness.
I agree with this paragraph so much I just had to single it out.
So what this all comes down to is this: A conspiracy theory is an irrational, instinctual thought process which puts to the fore the greatest fears in our minds. The conspiracy theorist is deluded into believing that the fear they feel is the fear everyone else feels, and they find avenues of opening up the dark recesses of our minds to the "truth". The rational skeptic is that person who intellectually approaches a problem, investigates the problem rationally, deduces a conclusion, and affirms or rejects the hypothesis. The skeptic and the conspiracy theorist are, for all intents and purposes, in each others company, but the fine line that separates them is ultimately logic. They both hear hoofbeats, but only one thinks horses.
This sends like a very good way to put the issue. Especially the last sentence.
 
"Conspiracy Theorist" is it so strange that one person of power would collaborate with another in order to benefit both parties?

Well, this article wasn't about an argument of likelihood, but rather one of logical analysis. Rational skepticism challenges it's own perspectives and looks for logical proofs while conspiracy theories take there ideas as a given.
 
With no real facts its impossible for anyone to have any clue whats going on. Conspiracy theoriests or others. Is it safe to say we dont know everything and that we dont and never will have all ths information about everything? Yes. Does that give anyone the right to fill in the blanks with whatever comes to mind? No.
 
With no real facts its impossible for anyone to have any clue whats going on. Conspiracy theoriests or others. Is it safe to say we dont know everything and that we dont and never will have all ths information about everything? Yes. Does that give anyone the right to fill in the blanks with whatever comes to mind? No.

I've said this to you before and i'll say it again

Just because you don't have many facts doesn't mean that others don't

I have debated and discussed with countless people now on these issues and what i find again and again is that the people who blindly dismiss the information that is being presented are often very ignorant ie they don't know much

You think there are no facts because you don't have them

others know better because they have more facts than you

For example i've spoken to people about the federal reserve system and they've denied what i'm saying yet they don't even have basic information such as how the fed was created and by whom and who owns it

yet with their ignorant position they seek to make firm conclusions
 
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This is partially right, I think.

Chomsky and Zinn make good points but because of their need for empiricism...they will never, ever crack the nut. Ever.
They can analyse it and maybe even be able to suggest some action that may be effective in the short term but that is all.

I do agree that Alex Jones is someone who discredits conspiracy theories and I do believe he is a faker.
If you compare him and Icke, he has a flashiness and attention to corporate-style marketing that Icke clearly does not have time for.

There are two sides to this coin. There is the NWO/Illuminati and there is the multi-dimensional/spiritual/consciousness.
The latter can't be studied empirically, but that doesn't mean it isn't real.
The former, when studied long enough, goes into the same themes of occultism, which is ego-based spirituality.

You can make small change the old-fashioned way and if that is enough for you...cool.
However, occultism is alive and strong on planet earth and you cannot beat that with materialism...only stronger occultism (unlikely) or spirituality (unlikely for many, but possible).

I hate reading that it was a false flag after EVERY event with a grainy photograph of nothing as proof.
This is simply because the events don't matter much to me. I try to get down to brass tacks.
I don't feel the need to inform people who don't want to be informed. There is enough info out there now and I feel no need to recycle it.
What I do believe in is character creation, soul-making. I do believe that without the submission of ego to a higher frequency, we are pretty fucked.
 
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This is partially right, I think.

Chomsky and Zinn make good points but because of their need for empiricism...they will never, ever crack the nut. Ever.
They can analyse it and maybe even be able to suggest some action that may be effective in the short term but that is all.

I do agree that Alex Jones is someone who discredits conspiracy theories and I do believe he is a faker.
If you compare him and Icke, he has a flashiness and attention to corporate-style marketing that Icke clearly does not have time for.

There are two sides to this coin. There is the NWO/Illuminati and there is the multi-dimensional/spiritual/consciousness.
The latter can't be studied empirically, but that doesn't mean it isn't real.
The former, when studied long enough, goes into the same themes of occultism, which is ego-based spirituality.

You can make small change the old-fashioned way and if that is enough for you...cool.
However, occultism is alive and strong on planet earth and you cannot beat that with materialism...only stronger occultism (unlikely) or spirituality (unlikely for many, but possible).

I hate reading that it was a false flag after EVERY event with a grainy photograph of nothing as proof.
This is simply because the events don't matter much to me. I try to get down to brass tacks.
I don't feel the need to inform people who don't want to be informed. There is enough info out there now and I feel no need to recycle it.
What I do believe in is character creation, soul-making. I do believe that without the submission of ego to a higher frequency, we are pretty fucked.

Frankly, if empiricism can't crack it, nothing can. Everything else is conjecture. Enlightened guesses at best. Such is the universe.
 
Frankly, if empiricism can't crack it, nothing can. Everything else is conjecture. Enlightened guesses at best. Such is the universe.

Good luck with that :)

But don't call me Frankly.
 
Good luck with that :)

But don't call me Frankly.

Oh, I have no illusions about being omnipresent or all knowing, no worries there; no luck needed. The only things I know or will ever claim to know are what I have experienced, "knowledge" seems like a very hollow word otherwise.
 
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Has anyone ever handled russian dolls?

You know those wooden dolls that you open and inside is another doll and then you open that and inside is another doll and so on

Events are often (not always but often) like russian dolls...or onions with many layers that you have to peel back to get to the bottom of

This is like a police detective interviewing different people in order to build a picture

Now some of the people the policeman interviews might be guilty of the crime that is being investigated and in order to cover their tracks they lie and they make up alternative stories about what happened.

They may even conspire with each other to concoct a story that supports each of their accounts; they may even agree to act as alibis for each other

The detective therefore cannot ever simply and blindly believe every account he/she is given but must always hold the posibility in the back of their mind that the person they are interviewing might be lying to them

This does not make them 'paranoid' it simply gives them a platform of objectivity from which to investigate the possiblities

However some people are UNABLE to operate from a platform of objectivity because they have ties to something for example a religion or a country or a club or society (eg freemasons) or class of people. So for example some people call themselves 'patriotic' and always defend their government. They refuse to listen to any information that might expose wrong-doing on the part of their government and by doing so they have lost objectivity

Going back to the detective analogy this would be like the detective ruling out a possible suspect because they know them (or think they know them)

So lets tie Chomsky and Zinn into this situation....

Chomsky has been called a 'left hand gatekeeper' of the new world order which is why he was met with hostility by alex jones for example

Now chomsky says a lot of interesting stuff much of which goes over the head of the vast majority of people who would rather watch X factor in their evenings

As chomsky himself explains the printed media is split into 2 halves. Roughly 80% are tabloid newspaper readers and about 20% are broadsheet newspaper readers

The broadsheet newspapers lay a claim to being more sophisticated than the tabloid newspapers but by creating media of broad appeal a greater number of readers are reached by the corporate media...ie they cater to the working class and the middle class

The middle class unfortunatly often languish in a state of self-satisfied ignorance because they have been through the higher education system and have been indoctrinated by the system so they believe that they already have a sophisticated understanding of how the world works...this makes them complacent in their search for truth

Of this demographic bracket is a group that see themselves as a bit more radical. they hold what they term 'left wing' views and they will opt for newspapers that have a reputation for being 'left leaning'; the UK this might be the 'guardian' newspaper

However if you look into what the left really is and you study that 'left leaning' media it becomes clear that actually it is not 'left' but rather centre-left which is to say that it is still within the safe boundaries of the box that is the current system...it keeps people thinking inside the box albeit with maybe a few more jibes at the right of centre politicans

Then from this left leaning group there are some that push even further in their explorations of the issues because they feel that in fact there is more going on than the left leaning press is admitting and as they explore the book shop shelves and 'left wing' publications and websites they encounter such leading lights as Noam Chomsky who carries a venear of academic respectability

Chomsky they find criticises the government even more harshly than the 'left leaning' media does and this satisfies many of those that felt that there was more to the whole story than they were being told by the 'left leaning' media

In chomksy they find their champion who challenges the government with its own writtings taken from the public record

However Chomsky is still within the box! lol

yes he is at the fringes of the box but what he does is he catches those drifting away from the centre of the box heading left and holds them within the box with compelling and seemingly radical arguments

However Chomsky avoids the subject areas that really underlie events; he is simply a layer in the onion....a layer of the onion that i peeled away years ago and kept moving past

Chomsky can be seen having public debates online which at times even seem heated but these debates are clevery staged to remain within the box

Chomsky lost a lot of support from the truth movement when said he didn't think the government was involved in 911 which for many is the litmus test of where a person is in terms of their perceptions of reality

Of course it would be career suicide for an MIT prof to say he thinks that the government or at least the shadow government is involved in 911 however is that the only reason for his denial?

On one hand he might genuinely believe the official story with all its discrepancies which would make him a sloppy researcher which is not really something i would tar chomsky with

So another possibility is that chomsky is acting as a left-wing gatekeeper of the new world order and by denying 911 truth he is holding many people who have unshakeable faith in him within the box of the system (he has had created around him the aura of a prophet with his devotees viewing him as such)

He can be seen debating dershowitz over the israel/palestine situation and he can be seen in that debate avoiding dershowitz's challenge to expose the bankers behind the events. Of course thats not exactly how dershowitz phrases it but nevertheless that is the subtext

The rothschilds are one such area which are out of bounds for chomsky; instead of naming specific families involved in various conspiracies he instead uses vague umbrella terms such as the 'power elite'

Well yes chomsky there is a 'power elite', now why don't you use that vast knowledge you've gained to tell us WHO the 'power elite' are? But you won't do that will you?

So its at that point that the truth-seeker must part ways with the academic giant and dig deeper still for answers.

So....where are those answers to be found? What are the customary sources of information in our society and where do they come from?

Let me list some of those sources which i have scoured:

-libraries
-newspapers
-universities
-colleges
-books
-radio
-TV
-magazines
-discussions with people
(-internet websites as the most recent source)

However none of these sources (bar the internet and some books) dare to move outside the box of the system because the people behind those sources fear the repercussions of the system

For example one must ask how an activist like chomksy has survived for over half a century of activism against the government whilst many black, latino, native american and anglo-saxon activists have been murdered for example as part of Operation Cointellpro, if he is not in fact protected by powerful people

So one then must move beyond those sources and when they do they find people like David icke and Alex Jones

Are these people just more layers of the onion who are just deeper down the rabbit hole than academia?

Perhaps...but one thing is for sure and that is that they speak about events on a level that others bound by the constraints of academia or the media are unable or unwilling to do

And here's a further interesting dimension to their work. Unlike empirical studiers of events-already-past the conspiracy world makes predictions and when a person has been following events long enough and gains enough insight they too are able to make predictions and as those predictions come true their views are then supported by the empirical evidence of physical reality itself occuring as it was anticipated to do

So those that are caught in chomksys bubble will have a better grasp of whats really going on than those that are caught within the mainstream media bubble but those that know the most besides the conspirators themsleves of course are those that have graduated beyond the chomsky bubble

But just as the chomsky bubble people often languish in a self-satisfied and slightly superior mode of believeing that because they have information that the mainstream media bubble people don't have that they are somehow in-the-know, the conspiracy theorist people too can fall into the same trap which is why i recommend people to explore with an open mind whilst always keeping at the back of their mind Robert Anton Wilsons maxim: ''never fully buy into anyone elses bullshit'' because as Manley P Hall once said (to paraphrase): the truth is an ongoing journey

[video=youtube;Ul7ZKEgpp4A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul7ZKEgpp4A[/video]
 
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[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]

There's also the concept of multi contextual action where the meaning or purpose of the action is opened by the one seeing it happen.

Consider how with any good satire it often gets taken seriously. This illustrates the point of how the viewer can perceive different meanings. However usually in this case only one of the meanings was actually intended, but if you're aware of this it is possible to design things such that you can have different meanings targeted at what you know the viewer will perceive. One source of material ends up with several context sensitive meanings, some times they might even be contrary but none the less intended.

Personally I do this quite often.
 
@muir

There's also the concept of multi contextual action where the meaning or purpose of the action is opened by the one seeing it happen.

Consider how with any good satire it often gets taken seriously. This illustrates the point of how the viewer can perceive different meanings. However usually in this case only one of the meanings was actually intended, but if you're aware of this it is possible to design things such that you can have different meanings targeted at what you know the viewer will perceive. One source of material ends up with several context sensitive meanings, some times they might even be contrary but none the less intended.

Personally I do this quite often.

Can you give me an example?
 
Can you give me an example?

One of my favorites but seldom used (though I've used it about twice on this forum) is a response along the lines of "I am a goldfish, bloop bloop"

This is so open ended that it could mean several things, and generally I intend most or all the meanings depending on which one somebody would pick.

It could mean that I'm being flippant and trollish, and not taking you seriously.
It could mean that I'm being self effacing, actually saying that I don't know anything.
Maybe I'm just trying to make you laugh. Maybe I'm leading by example. Maybe I'm just silly.

Whatever you think from that phrase, it's probably what I want you to think, because by thinking it you in some way deserve the interpretation.
 
A conspiracy theory is an irrational, instinctual thought process which puts to the fore the greatest fears in our minds. The conspiracy theorist is deluded into believing that the fear they feel is the fear everyone else feels, and they find avenues of opening up the dark recesses of our minds to the "truth".
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Jung: Psychological Types [abridged] CW Vol.6 Par 629-630
 
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One of my favorites but seldom used (though I've used it about twice on this forum) is a response along the lines of "I am a goldfish, bloop bloop"

This is so open ended that it could mean several things, and generally I intend most or all the meanings depending on which one somebody would pick.

It could mean that I'm being flippant and trollish, and not taking you seriously.
It could mean that I'm being self effacing, actually saying that I don't know anything.
Maybe I'm just trying to make you laugh. Maybe I'm leading by example. Maybe I'm just silly.

Whatever you think from that phrase, it's probably what I want you to think, because by thinking it you in some way deserve the interpretation.

Ok

Are you implying that how we interprete global events says more about us than it does about the events themselves?

If so consider my post above and my journey through the onion as it were....i was not born a 'conspiracy theorist' i became increasinlgy open minded as i learned more and more information that contradcited the box that had been built around my mind by the mass media and education system (both of which i have explored a lot)
 
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Jung: Psychological Types [abridged] CW Vol.6 Par 629-630

Can you please tell me if the US neo-con government lied about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction in order to take us into war againt iraq?
 
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Ok

Are you implying that how we interprete global events says more about us than it does about the events themselves?

If so consider my post above and my journey through the onion as it were....i was not born a 'conspiracy theorist' i became increasinlgy open minded as i learned more and more information that contradcited the box that had been built around my mind by the mass media and education system (both of which i have explored a lot)

I'm a goldfish, bloop bloop. What do I know?
 
I don't have that fact, but that doesn't mean that someone else doesn't have it