The line between conspiracy theorists and rational skepticism as a logical analysis | INFJ Forum

The line between conspiracy theorists and rational skepticism as a logical analysis

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by dogman6126, Jul 21, 2014.

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  1. dogman6126

    dogman6126 Community Member

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    Ok so I was reading in some modern philosophical blogs, and came across this. I thought it was very interesting and wanted to share it here. I would really like to hear what some of you people think :)

    Here is the original source
    http://observationdeck.io9.com/the-...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

     
  2. the

    the Si master race.
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    "Conspiracy Theorist" is it so strange that one person of power would collaborate with another in order to benefit both parties?
     
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  3. OP
    dogman6126

    dogman6126 Community Member

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    I'm sure some people noticed the similarity between this post and the other thread asking why do people believe conspiracy theories. I almost posted it there, but I decided to do a new thread going we can switch to a more philosophical approach.

    This specific paragraph really outlines the similarity of the discussion in the other thread abd those post.

    I agree with this paragraph so much I just had to single it out.
    This sends like a very good way to put the issue. Especially the last sentence.
     
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    dogman6126

    dogman6126 Community Member

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    Well, this article wasn't about an argument of likelihood, but rather one of logical analysis. Rational skepticism challenges it's own perspectives and looks for logical proofs while conspiracy theories take there ideas as a given.
     
  5. Eventhorizon

    Eventhorizon Permanently relocated
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    With no real facts its impossible for anyone to have any clue whats going on. Conspiracy theoriests or others. Is it safe to say we dont know everything and that we dont and never will have all ths information about everything? Yes. Does that give anyone the right to fill in the blanks with whatever comes to mind? No.
     
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  6. muir

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    I've said this to you before and i'll say it again

    Just because you don't have many facts doesn't mean that others don't

    I have debated and discussed with countless people now on these issues and what i find again and again is that the people who blindly dismiss the information that is being presented are often very ignorant ie they don't know much

    You think there are no facts because you don't have them

    others know better because they have more facts than you

    For example i've spoken to people about the federal reserve system and they've denied what i'm saying yet they don't even have basic information such as how the fed was created and by whom and who owns it

    yet with their ignorant position they seek to make firm conclusions
     
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    #6 muir, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  7. Cornerstone

    Cornerstone Well-known member

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    This is partially right, I think.

    Chomsky and Zinn make good points but because of their need for empiricism...they will never, ever crack the nut. Ever.
    They can analyse it and maybe even be able to suggest some action that may be effective in the short term but that is all.

    I do agree that Alex Jones is someone who discredits conspiracy theories and I do believe he is a faker.
    If you compare him and Icke, he has a flashiness and attention to corporate-style marketing that Icke clearly does not have time for.

    There are two sides to this coin. There is the NWO/Illuminati and there is the multi-dimensional/spiritual/consciousness.
    The latter can't be studied empirically, but that doesn't mean it isn't real.
    The former, when studied long enough, goes into the same themes of occultism, which is ego-based spirituality.

    You can make small change the old-fashioned way and if that is enough for you...cool.
    However, occultism is alive and strong on planet earth and you cannot beat that with materialism...only stronger occultism (unlikely) or spirituality (unlikely for many, but possible).

    I hate reading that it was a false flag after EVERY event with a grainy photograph of nothing as proof.
    This is simply because the events don't matter much to me. I try to get down to brass tacks.
    I don't feel the need to inform people who don't want to be informed. There is enough info out there now and I feel no need to recycle it.
    What I do believe in is character creation, soul-making. I do believe that without the submission of ego to a higher frequency, we are pretty fucked.
     
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    #7 Cornerstone, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
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  8. Kanamori

    Kanamori Permanent Fixture

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    Frankly, if empiricism can't crack it, nothing can. Everything else is conjecture. Enlightened guesses at best. Such is the universe.
     
  9. Cornerstone

    Cornerstone Well-known member

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    Good luck with that :)

    But don't call me Frankly.
     
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  10. Kanamori

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    Oh, I have no illusions about being omnipresent or all knowing, no worries there; no luck needed. The only things I know or will ever claim to know are what I have experienced, "knowledge" seems like a very hollow word otherwise.
     
    #10 Kanamori, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  11. muir

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    Has anyone ever handled russian dolls?

    You know those wooden dolls that you open and inside is another doll and then you open that and inside is another doll and so on

    Events are often (not always but often) like russian dolls...or onions with many layers that you have to peel back to get to the bottom of

    This is like a police detective interviewing different people in order to build a picture

    Now some of the people the policeman interviews might be guilty of the crime that is being investigated and in order to cover their tracks they lie and they make up alternative stories about what happened.

    They may even conspire with each other to concoct a story that supports each of their accounts; they may even agree to act as alibis for each other

    The detective therefore cannot ever simply and blindly believe every account he/she is given but must always hold the posibility in the back of their mind that the person they are interviewing might be lying to them

    This does not make them 'paranoid' it simply gives them a platform of objectivity from which to investigate the possiblities

    However some people are UNABLE to operate from a platform of objectivity because they have ties to something for example a religion or a country or a club or society (eg freemasons) or class of people. So for example some people call themselves 'patriotic' and always defend their government. They refuse to listen to any information that might expose wrong-doing on the part of their government and by doing so they have lost objectivity

    Going back to the detective analogy this would be like the detective ruling out a possible suspect because they know them (or think they know them)

    So lets tie Chomsky and Zinn into this situation....

    Chomsky has been called a 'left hand gatekeeper' of the new world order which is why he was met with hostility by alex jones for example

    Now chomsky says a lot of interesting stuff much of which goes over the head of the vast majority of people who would rather watch X factor in their evenings

    As chomsky himself explains the printed media is split into 2 halves. Roughly 80% are tabloid newspaper readers and about 20% are broadsheet newspaper readers

    The broadsheet newspapers lay a claim to being more sophisticated than the tabloid newspapers but by creating media of broad appeal a greater number of readers are reached by the corporate media...ie they cater to the working class and the middle class

    The middle class unfortunatly often languish in a state of self-satisfied ignorance because they have been through the higher education system and have been indoctrinated by the system so they believe that they already have a sophisticated understanding of how the world works...this makes them complacent in their search for truth

    Of this demographic bracket is a group that see themselves as a bit more radical. they hold what they term 'left wing' views and they will opt for newspapers that have a reputation for being 'left leaning'; the UK this might be the 'guardian' newspaper

    However if you look into what the left really is and you study that 'left leaning' media it becomes clear that actually it is not 'left' but rather centre-left which is to say that it is still within the safe boundaries of the box that is the current system...it keeps people thinking inside the box albeit with maybe a few more jibes at the right of centre politicans

    Then from this left leaning group there are some that push even further in their explorations of the issues because they feel that in fact there is more going on than the left leaning press is admitting and as they explore the book shop shelves and 'left wing' publications and websites they encounter such leading lights as Noam Chomsky who carries a venear of academic respectability

    Chomsky they find criticises the government even more harshly than the 'left leaning' media does and this satisfies many of those that felt that there was more to the whole story than they were being told by the 'left leaning' media

    In chomksy they find their champion who challenges the government with its own writtings taken from the public record

    However Chomsky is still within the box! lol

    yes he is at the fringes of the box but what he does is he catches those drifting away from the centre of the box heading left and holds them within the box with compelling and seemingly radical arguments

    However Chomsky avoids the subject areas that really underlie events; he is simply a layer in the onion....a layer of the onion that i peeled away years ago and kept moving past

    Chomsky can be seen having public debates online which at times even seem heated but these debates are clevery staged to remain within the box

    Chomsky lost a lot of support from the truth movement when said he didn't think the government was involved in 911 which for many is the litmus test of where a person is in terms of their perceptions of reality

    Of course it would be career suicide for an MIT prof to say he thinks that the government or at least the shadow government is involved in 911 however is that the only reason for his denial?

    On one hand he might genuinely believe the official story with all its discrepancies which would make him a sloppy researcher which is not really something i would tar chomsky with

    So another possibility is that chomsky is acting as a left-wing gatekeeper of the new world order and by denying 911 truth he is holding many people who have unshakeable faith in him within the box of the system (he has had created around him the aura of a prophet with his devotees viewing him as such)

    He can be seen debating dershowitz over the israel/palestine situation and he can be seen in that debate avoiding dershowitz's challenge to expose the bankers behind the events. Of course thats not exactly how dershowitz phrases it but nevertheless that is the subtext

    The rothschilds are one such area which are out of bounds for chomsky; instead of naming specific families involved in various conspiracies he instead uses vague umbrella terms such as the 'power elite'

    Well yes chomsky there is a 'power elite', now why don't you use that vast knowledge you've gained to tell us WHO the 'power elite' are? But you won't do that will you?

    So its at that point that the truth-seeker must part ways with the academic giant and dig deeper still for answers.

    So....where are those answers to be found? What are the customary sources of information in our society and where do they come from?

    Let me list some of those sources which i have scoured:

    -libraries
    -newspapers
    -universities
    -colleges
    -books
    -radio
    -TV
    -magazines
    -discussions with people
    (-internet websites as the most recent source)

    However none of these sources (bar the internet and some books) dare to move outside the box of the system because the people behind those sources fear the repercussions of the system

    For example one must ask how an activist like chomksy has survived for over half a century of activism against the government whilst many black, latino, native american and anglo-saxon activists have been murdered for example as part of Operation Cointellpro, if he is not in fact protected by powerful people

    So one then must move beyond those sources and when they do they find people like David icke and Alex Jones

    Are these people just more layers of the onion who are just deeper down the rabbit hole than academia?

    Perhaps...but one thing is for sure and that is that they speak about events on a level that others bound by the constraints of academia or the media are unable or unwilling to do

    And here's a further interesting dimension to their work. Unlike empirical studiers of events-already-past the conspiracy world makes predictions and when a person has been following events long enough and gains enough insight they too are able to make predictions and as those predictions come true their views are then supported by the empirical evidence of physical reality itself occuring as it was anticipated to do

    So those that are caught in chomksys bubble will have a better grasp of whats really going on than those that are caught within the mainstream media bubble but those that know the most besides the conspirators themsleves of course are those that have graduated beyond the chomsky bubble

    But just as the chomsky bubble people often languish in a self-satisfied and slightly superior mode of believeing that because they have information that the mainstream media bubble people don't have that they are somehow in-the-know, the conspiracy theorist people too can fall into the same trap which is why i recommend people to explore with an open mind whilst always keeping at the back of their mind Robert Anton Wilsons maxim: ''never fully buy into anyone elses bullshit'' because as Manley P Hall once said (to paraphrase): the truth is an ongoing journey

    [video=youtube;Ul7ZKEgpp4A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul7ZKEgpp4A[/video]
     
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    #11 muir, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  12. sprinkles

    sprinkles Well-known member

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    [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]

    There's also the concept of multi contextual action where the meaning or purpose of the action is opened by the one seeing it happen.

    Consider how with any good satire it often gets taken seriously. This illustrates the point of how the viewer can perceive different meanings. However usually in this case only one of the meanings was actually intended, but if you're aware of this it is possible to design things such that you can have different meanings targeted at what you know the viewer will perceive. One source of material ends up with several context sensitive meanings, some times they might even be contrary but none the less intended.

    Personally I do this quite often.
     
  13. muir

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    Can you give me an example?
     
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  14. sprinkles

    sprinkles Well-known member

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    One of my favorites but seldom used (though I've used it about twice on this forum) is a response along the lines of "I am a goldfish, bloop bloop"

    This is so open ended that it could mean several things, and generally I intend most or all the meanings depending on which one somebody would pick.

    It could mean that I'm being flippant and trollish, and not taking you seriously.
    It could mean that I'm being self effacing, actually saying that I don't know anything.
    Maybe I'm just trying to make you laugh. Maybe I'm leading by example. Maybe I'm just silly.

    Whatever you think from that phrase, it's probably what I want you to think, because by thinking it you in some way deserve the interpretation.
     
  15. Stu

    Stu Town Drunkard
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]Jung: Psychological Types [abridged] CW Vol.6 Par 629-630
     
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  16. muir

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    Ok

    Are you implying that how we interprete global events says more about us than it does about the events themselves?

    If so consider my post above and my journey through the onion as it were....i was not born a 'conspiracy theorist' i became increasinlgy open minded as i learned more and more information that contradcited the box that had been built around my mind by the mass media and education system (both of which i have explored a lot)
     
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  17. muir

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    Can you please tell me if the US neo-con government lied about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction in order to take us into war againt iraq?
     
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  18. sprinkles

    sprinkles Well-known member

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    I'm a goldfish, bloop bloop. What do I know?
     
  19. Stu

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    I don't have that fact, but that doesn't mean that someone else doesn't have it
     
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  20. muir

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    why you cheeky so and so! :)
     
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