True.
I’m curious to check whether there are influential arguments, besides Wittgenstein’s, to the effect that solipsism as traditionally conceived is incoherent. That would presumably not have to rely on the ‘objective external reality’ axiom.
The infamous "I" mentality
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True.
I’m curious to check whether there are influential arguments, besides Wittgenstein’s, to the effect that solipsism as traditionally conceived is incoherent. That would presumably not have to rely on the ‘objective external reality’ axiom.
I think the trouble with Wittgenstein's argument is that it assumes the 'I' is looking only at a single world, but it isn't - at least at a naive level. My I isn't a point but a surface that separates my inner world from the outer one. Each of these worlds are not-me, but are disjoint. I have far more confidence in the existence of my inner world, because I apprehend it directly - it's only through an act of faith that I believe there is an outer world because I can only access it through the metaphors that my mind creates in order to express it in terms that I can grasp. Even so, there are different orders of doubt - although i am far more sure of the reality of my inner world than my outer, that doesn't provide certainty. In the end, my experience of my I-ishness is just that - an experience. That experience is itself a sort of illusion, because I don't have any real knowledge of what I am as seen from outside myself so what I experience as 'I' is a projection - I don't think the source of the projection is much like the projected image, but that is an intuition that I can only express and not justify.
I don't think this deep reflection leads away from the OP made by @just me. My own encounter with solipsism is through experience, not conceptualisation, and may well not actually fit its philosophical definition. It was horrible, there is no other description for it - an experience of hell. I was alone, there was no time, no space - everything was just an extension of myself and illusory. There was no-one else, just me, now .... without future or past. The ultimate bad trip, but without any chemical trigger. It sounds silly when written down, but it wasn't.
The way out is really a vindication of Just Me's OP. I was thrown back inside myself, and several years after this experience, I was rescued by someone deep inside me who was not me. The experience of everything being me was turned inside out - it's still profoundly subjective, and there is still only 'I'. But it's not my 'I' any more but Our 'I'.
All I can say is that the conventional materialistic perspective is profoundly deluded. There is an intimate relationship between all things that exist that means I share their reality with them, and they with me. Together we are an amazing reality.
At work right now John so I cannot engage with long posts (well technically I shouldn't engage with any post but I am a French rogue) but I'm really excited to read this later.
Oh! No rush Ren. Probably nothing here I haven’t said before in other contexts.At work right now John so I cannot engage with long posts (well technically I shouldn't engage with any post but I am a French rogue) but I'm really excited to read this later.
Hope your work is a good fit for you.
+1 at the conversation here on solipsism, can't form a proper final argumentation yet (for/against, got stuck) so here's hoping to see a follow up in the thread here of the conversation.
There must be a way to tackle the perspective of solipsism from a philosophical point of view...there must be!
@just me, +1 on the examples, this is a whole topic on its own, the nuance of language. Hopefully more examples passing around, interesting as well.
There must be a way to tackle the perspective of solipsism from a philosophical point of view...there must be!
@just me, +1 on the examples, this is a whole topic on its own, the nuance of language. Hopefully more examples passing around, interesting as well.
- Aug 21, 2015
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Maybe just one soul living every life - clouds forming and reforming, flying by in the wind, or the braided themes of a great music.
by Dr. Neel Burton
"And so the meaning of life, of our life, is that which we choose to give it."
Notice his use of "our" and "we". This is not about what was said, but in how it was said.
We. Our.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now WE see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." Come, and see.
"And so the meaning of life, of our life, is that which we choose to give it."
Notice his use of "our" and "we". This is not about what was said, but in how it was said.
We. Our.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now WE see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." Come, and see.
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Hence, calling members of a team by their own names empowers them. A lone, young, or hurt animal is targeted by predators in Africa and elsewhere. Predators work as a team to separate the single from the group before the coup de grâce.
There is safety in numbers, but there are always exceptions to the rule. The percentages is with a well-organized group of the same mind.
"Let's all go to town and get drunk!" Agreed there are times it is best to separate oneself from a group. Great point.
Also, the "nuances of language" would be a great subject and is part of this. We may mean something, yet say it all wrong, and be turned away. I had somewhat of a problem with that when
young and trying to approach someone that made my head feel funny and spin. Being poor and around those who came from more rich families made it difficult to feel bold. It can be difficult, saying the right words when one's heart is fluttering.
Conversation and communication can get different results with different words. Words can set the world afire. Words can calm the seas. Words can mislead. Words can start wars. Words can cause confusion. Words can test us. Words can make us stronger. Words can make us laugh. Words can make us cry. Words can create. Words can destroy. Words can heal. Words can reject. Sometimes words can turn people away; yet, cause others to gather together.
copied..."A door does not close; it thuds."
Words have long been used to communicate something without actually saying it. How we use our words can set the course and put us on auto-pilot the rest of the day, or they can open the door for a gifted day. Sometimes omitting words can do the same. We can hear without understanding, and we can see without knowing. Understanding some things requires the help of others. What we can see can be far more than what I can see. What might be omitted may vary according to the audience of those that might hear or read the words.
young and trying to approach someone that made my head feel funny and spin. Being poor and around those who came from more rich families made it difficult to feel bold. It can be difficult, saying the right words when one's heart is fluttering.
Conversation and communication can get different results with different words. Words can set the world afire. Words can calm the seas. Words can mislead. Words can start wars. Words can cause confusion. Words can test us. Words can make us stronger. Words can make us laugh. Words can make us cry. Words can create. Words can destroy. Words can heal. Words can reject. Sometimes words can turn people away; yet, cause others to gather together.
copied..."A door does not close; it thuds."
Words have long been used to communicate something without actually saying it. How we use our words can set the course and put us on auto-pilot the rest of the day, or they can open the door for a gifted day. Sometimes omitting words can do the same. We can hear without understanding, and we can see without knowing. Understanding some things requires the help of others. What we can see can be far more than what I can see. What might be omitted may vary according to the audience of those that might hear or read the words.
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First person is a reality. To be short and to the point:
Each of us must have known someone that falls into this category. Everyone states things using "I". There is nothing wrong with it. We need to learn to say "we". It is as simple as that.
Even in the military, situations come up all the time when a team needs to do something. While taking fire from a fixed location up a hill, a team has been ordered to take the hill. The Captain was chosen to be team leader because he has a higher probability of getting the job done with as few casualties as possible.
Now, which would you rather hear from your Captain?
a) I want you to fire at the hill. I want you and you and you to run to the next bunker while they are firing. I want you to start firing now. OK: go, go, go!
b) We need to take this hill. Rogers, Hunter, Williams: you guys lay down some fire power. Martinez, Smith, and Jones: you guys run to the next bunker. Ready? Go, go, go.
Calling someone by their name empowers them. Adding yourself with the rest of everyone with a simple "we" makes the Captain part of the rest.
I have read a bit about the "I" mentality. It would be great if we could share. My time is limited tonight.
Thank you.
Just me, I'm not sure whether you're asking something or just saying something. Either way, I agree that "We" is a great thing to say, when it can be applied as appropriate; however, to say "I" shows one is taking responsibility for one's own thoughts and feelings. So, "I" can understand both sides of this idea.
Very good: you speak for yourself only.
I fear my understanding of scriptures to be different than most. Allow me to speak for my self. I also feel most in this audience would not like to venture into said understanding. The thread dies when it is spoken of. My spirit? Shall I change my user avatar?
I fear my understanding of scriptures to be different than most. Allow me to speak for my self. I also feel most in this audience would not like to venture into said understanding. The thread dies when it is spoken of. My spirit? Shall I change my user avatar?
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