"Social engineers" who talk you into revealing your shameful secrets

[uuu]

Today, I had a long phone call with a family member I hadn't caught up with in a long time, and by asking a couple of very deft questions, she managed to get me to confess to a couple of somewhat embarrassing prejudices that I hold about women.

I knew that I had the prejudices, and I usually try to keep them to myself since I expect that they are informed by unlucky experience rather than a systematic study of reality, but someone she wore through my defenses.

It was not a very pleasant experience. Like most people, I have shameful thoughts that I would rather keep to myself. For another to extract these thoughts—even with the best of intentions, even if you she did so via charm rather than coercion—felt like a violation of trust.

I am not entirely without responsibility. I ought to learn when to just shut the fuck up. But people really like talking about themselves, and some people are especially cunning at exploiting this tendency.

Do you know anyone who is a "social engineer" in this way—who can make other people reveal their secrets in a simple conversation? Do you think it's necessarily the sign of a nosy personality?

 

[Matty]

Maybe think before speaking.

 

[Wyote]

There's something intrinsically desirable to most humans about knowing secrets of any kind.
People like to feel special and knowing a secret gives them a hit of that feeling.
But they can also build bridges of trust.
Confiding in others in healthy ways is important for social navigation and strength.

Obviously if there's some unwanted pressure felt or unease with trust then there's a problem of some kind at hand.
People often overshare when it's something that has been a pervasive thought line creating emotional stress internally, so simply sharing it even in unhealthy ways will relieve some of the pressure. But it won't be resolved until the patterns of thinking are changed.

I've rambled on, hope this was helpful.

 

[aeon]

I recommend losing the shame and reaching that balance point where you can simultaneously care about a person’s experience and well-being, yet not give a fuck about what they think of you.

I know, easily said, but not easily done. And of course, context matters.

I’ve been known to open my mouth before thinking, certainly back before I was Dx’d and Rx’d for ADHD.

And I have all kinds of thoughts about women (and men), but I have no sense I should be ashamed of any of those thoughts.

I think that’s down to the content itself, and not a deficit on my part, or being brazen, or whatnot. That said, I would expect value differences if it was all laid out for examination...but nothing should come up that would stop us from getting lunch together.

I grew up under a narcissist, so I can smell that probing question stench from a long way away. I go with one of two options: full social graces, playfully, but give them nothing but suggestion and misdirection, or just give up the goods without any whiff of concern. The former gets them excited, the latter disappoints them, but in either case, you do not become their supply.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[mintoots]

I'm actually posting because i'm curious about what you said that it ought to have riled anything up to conflict. That said, I am nosy. It's why I find this forum a wonderful place to be at.

But also, what if this person actually truly cared? Maybe s/he cared to know, and then couldn't help to be opinionated about what was found out? Perhaps, are you angry because you feel guilty that you had to have those opinions at all? It may not necessarily have been social engineering on his/her part. It also makes me curious why you eventually decided to talk about it when you could have walked away. Most people have walls that are hard to break.

That said, I'm sorry your trust in this person has eroded. That's a difficult place to be at.

I admit. I intend to to cull out information from people at times, often because I care too much and am too nosy. And some times it is unintentional, people just blurt out things i never imagine them to say. I've been at the receiving end of this situation when a person got mad at me because I've wanted to know. It's a hard lesson to learn to not care about what isn't my business. Still, I may have to state that perhaps it could be that it wasn't this person's intention to judge you.

 

[TheDeathOfYouAndMe]

This is exactly the reason why I practice the art of being a blank canvas to people who I haven't observed enough to feel comfortable with sharing information. We unfortunately live in a world where people think everyone else's business is their priority in life. And the concept of a private life has gone from something respected and expected to being seedy and secretive.

Maybe the fact you admit to your views causing you shame, is partly the reason why you unburdened yourself. Either way I wouldn't give it too much thought, we're all works in progress in the end.

 

[uuu]

Maybe think before speaking.

Working on it...

People often overshare when it's something that has been a pervasive thought line creating emotional stress internally, so simply sharing it even in unhealthy ways will relieve some of the pressure.

Yes, I think this played into it a bit. A desire to be affirmed in my beliefs, or to be told that it was normal etc.

I recommend losing the shame and reaching that balance point where you can simultaneously care about a person’s experience and well-being, yet not give a fuck about what they think of you.

Working on this too.

I'm actually posting because i'm curious about what you said that it ought to have riled anything up to conflict. That said, I am nosy. It's why I find this forum a wonderful place to be at.

It didn't cause conflict exactly—in fact she told me that she had had similar thoughts at times and knows many girlfriends who secretly fit my stereotype. But I was left with the icky impression that she was filing my words away for use as blackmail down the line. She is somewhat of a recovered blackmail artist in that way, and while I am pretty sure she is past that phase of her life (which was when she was quite a young adult), it's not a pleasant thing to have hanging over my head.

This is exactly the reason why I practice the art of being a blank canvas to people who I haven't observed enough to feel comfortable with sharing information.

Reminds me of a meme tweet I saw that was like, “I really want to be cool & mysterious but I just cannot learn to shut the fuck up.”

 

[John K]

Today, I had a long phone call with a family member I hadn't caught up with in a long time, and by asking a couple of very deft questions, she managed to get me to confess to a couple of somewhat embarrassing prejudices that I hold about women.

I knew that I had the prejudices, and I usually try to keep them to myself since I expect that they are informed by unlucky experience rather than a systematic study of reality, but someone she wore through my defenses.

It was not a very pleasant experience. Like most people, I have shameful thoughts that I would rather keep to myself. For another to extract these thoughts—even with the best of intentions, even if you she did so via charm rather than coercion—felt like a violation of trust.

I am not entirely without responsibility. I ought to learn when to just shut the fuck up. But people really like talking about themselves, and some people are especially cunning at exploiting this tendency.

Do you know anyone who is a "social engineer" in this way—who can make other people reveal their secrets in a simple conversation? Do you think it's necessarily the sign of a nosy personality?

You could have lied, but you didn't - you were honest.

Build on it!

 

[mintoots]

It didn't cause conflict exactly—in fact she told me that she had had similar thoughts at times and knows many girlfriends who secretly fit my stereotype. But I was left with the icky impression that she was filing my words away for use as blackmail down the line. She is somewhat of a recovered blackmail artist in that way, and while I am pretty sure she is past that phase of her life (which was when she was quite a young adult), it's not a pleasant thing to have hanging over my head.

Oh, a back story. Interesting. You were brave to have trusted her and also @John K is right. When you're not afraid to be honest, blackmail has no powers.

 

[Asa]

Do you know anyone who is a "social engineer" in this way—who can make other people reveal their secrets in a simple conversation? Do you think it's necessarily the sign of a nosy personality?

I actually think INFJs are pretty good at this, TBH, but we don't do it for blackmailing purposes in most cases. I can't speak for all INFJs and I'm not saying we're the only ones who do this.

---


... Overall, I think you need to work on boundaries. If you don't want to reveal vulnerable information, create a boundary with yourself not to share it. Honor that boundary within yourself. If someone asks you to reveal your secrets, tell them, "No." If they keep pushing, they are not honoring your boundaries. End the conversation, or at least end the topic.

It's an exercise you need to keep practicing, like going to the gym.

 

[Sloe Djinn]

I’m kind of interested in the characterization of this person as a “social engineer” as it insinuates some kind of calculated attempt to manipulate others without their knowing. Does she have a similar pattern of ferreting secrets out of others? Does she capitalize on it in any way?

 

[slant]

It didn't cause conflict exactly—in fact she told me that she had had similar thoughts at times and knows many girlfriends who secretly fit my stereotype. But I was left with the icky impression that she was filing my words away for use as blackmail down the line. She is somewhat of a recovered blackmail artist in that way, and while I am pretty sure she is past that phase of her life (which was when she was quite a young adult), it's not a pleasant thing to have hanging over my head.

Do you have thoughts like these a lot? I would identify this as paranoia.

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

Weaving conversations like this is surprisingly easy at least in my experience if one is open to allowing others to go beyond the usual talking points in an comforting manner that doesn't trip the usual filters. Sometimes this can lead some pretty good conversations but such sadly is pretty rare these days.

I like to look at it as being real people real stories kinda of thing instead of just interacting with an npc especially when there is some common ground/experiences on deeper topics.

 

[aeon]

Weaving conversations like this is surprisingly easy at least in my experience if one is open to allowing others to go beyond the usual talking points in an comforting manner that doesn't trip the usual filters. Sometimes this can lead some pretty good conversations but such sadly is pretty rare these days.

I like to look at it as being real people real stories kinda of thing instead of just interacting with an npc especially when there is some common ground/experiences on deeper topics.

I liked this so much I read it a second time, and then a third. Yes, this, exactly this.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[uuu]

Do you have thoughts like these a lot? I would identify this as paranoia.

Yes, I do. Does everyone not live like this??

I guess it comes from having a high degree of baseline anxiety, plus a strong sense of protectiveness about my memories, beliefs, and experiences. I am okay with sharing in-depth about one aspect of myself to someone who asks sympathetically about it, but wary of giving someone "comprehensive access" to the totality of my person—for once they know every aspect of me, what's the incentive to actually keep hanging out? I realize this is a nonsense thought, but it's the engine behind my paranoia, in some ways.

Did I mention that I have trouble entering lasting romantic relationships? I am usually told that I am either too guarded, or too intense.

And yes—I'm working on this too!

Weaving conversations like this is surprisingly easy at least in my experience if one is open to allowing others to go beyond the usual talking points in an comforting manner that doesn't trip the usual filters. Sometimes this can lead some pretty good conversations but such sadly is pretty rare these days.

That's true. Good conversations are fun, and I have the same genes as the relative from the OP, such that I sometimes am able to get people to confess things that they claim never to have admitted to anyone—usually older women confessing that they don't love their husband or that he has a strange fetish.

I enjoy the conversations when they are founded on trust, and far be it from me to say that it's wrong for two humans to open up with each other about their feelings. But there is a difference between valuing a good conversation as a means to human intimacy and growth, and valuing a good conversation because you like collecting juicy gossip and filing it away for later use as social leverage, no? (I'm not accusing you or anyone of being on the latter side of this fence, only pointing out that the fence is there.)

 

[aeon]

Yes, I do. Does everyone not live like this??

I definitely do not think or live like that.

I guess it comes from having a high degree of baseline anxiety, plus a strong sense of protectiveness about my memories, beliefs, and experiences.

I do not no longer suffer from an anxiety disorder of any kind, and in general, am not an anxious individual.

I don’t have any sense of protectiveness about my memories, beliefs, or experiences.

I am okay with sharing in-depth about one aspect of myself to someone who asks sympathetically about it, but wary of giving someone "comprehensive access" to the totality of my person—for once they know every aspect of me, what's the incentive to actually keep hanging out?

In my case, the in-person experience of engagement is the reason. My memories, as related in a story, might entertain someone, and relating the meaning of my experiences might be of use to someone, but on average, my beliefs tend to lead people to think I am a nutter, or of some persuasion that is highly suspect, or piss them off. It’s the live show that people pay money for.

I realize this is a nonsense thought, but it's the engine behind my paranoia, in some ways.

If it is your way, it isn’t nonsense, at least to you, and if that is a significant part of what fuels your engine, I thank you for revealing that aspect of your person. To know and be known is my greatest value.

Did I mention that I have trouble entering lasting romantic relationships? I am usually told that I am either too guarded, or too intense.

Well, keep in mind that is other people’s judgments of you, and only you can determine the degree to which that is accurate, or even true. The summation is not enough. The reason why is more important than the conclusion itself, in my opinion.

I heard that (guarded and intense) many times in years past because I like free-ranging conversation with no rules other than mutual consent. In particular, I used to love to engage in small talk, and very quickly go deep diving so a total stranger would talk to me about spirituality, or some other deep psychological thing. This worked nicely with captive audiences, like cab drivers.

And in dating, I always wanted to get to know, really know, so if it was okay, the usual rules would be set aside—with the understanding that consent could be withdrawn at any time, for any reason.

But I would sometimes get tagged with guarded (or other words, some of which were barbs or slurs) because I’m friends-first, owing to my nature as demi. In this culture, not pushing for sex can confuse people, anger people, and/or trigger their insecurity, and I experienced that a number of times. Which was okay—it served to filter out those who were unsuitable for me. All other things being equal, I think friends make the best lovers.

I sometimes am able to get people to confess things that they claim never to have admitted to anyone—usually older women confessing that they don't love their husband or that he has a strange fetish.

Ha! They may have not admitted that to anyone, but as secrets go, it’s common to the point of banality. Given this culture, I’m not surprised that a woman’s feelings might fade, assuming they were present to begin with. And the combination of so little witness, other-interest, and communication about sex, in concert with the typical touchpoints of shame, as well as unmet need, means to me that phrases like “he has a strange fetish” can describe nearly anything. It all depends on where a person is coming from, their degree of openness, attitude, tendency toward judgment, and so on. That said, I can appreciate a person’s acceptance of their partner is likely to fade when their love for their partner does. And for sure, people get off to all kinds of things, so even anything-goes types like myself can be puzzzled by, or get weirded out by, a wide variety of things.

I enjoy the conversations when they are founded on trust, and far be it from me to say that it's wrong for two humans to open up with each other about their feelings. But there is a difference between valuing a good conversation as a means to human intimacy and growth, and valuing a good conversation because you like collecting juicy gossip and filing it away for later use as social leverage, no?

Absolutely, but I don’t encounter many people like that in real life. I’m not sure if that is rarity, or people who roll that way stay away from me, or people who would otherwise do those things know their spellcraft is of no power against my person.

I’ve been known to engage in positive gossip—talking about someone behind their back, saying only good things about them. I started doing that at a previous workplace after I experienced other people doing it. That company had the best vibes of any social situation I have ever experienced. I think it was because the owner was a truly loving, relationship-driven individual. That was evidenced in both his words and actions.

Best to You,
Ian

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

Yes, I do. Does everyone not live like this??

I guess it comes from having a high degree of baseline anxiety, plus a strong sense of protectiveness about my memories, beliefs, and experiences. I am okay with sharing in-depth about one aspect of myself to someone who asks sympathetically about it, but wary of giving someone "comprehensive access" to the totality of my person—for once they know every aspect of me, what's the incentive to actually keep hanging out? I realize this is a nonsense thought, but it's the engine behind my paranoia, in some ways.

Did I mention that I have trouble entering lasting romantic relationships? I am usually told that I am either too guarded, or too intense.

And yes—I'm working on this too!

That's true. Good conversations are fun, and I have the same genes as the relative from the OP, such that I sometimes am able to get people to confess things that they claim never to have admitted to anyone—usually older women confessing that they don't love their husband or that he has a strange fetish.

I enjoy the conversations when they are founded on trust, and far be it from me to say that it's wrong for two humans to open up with each other about their feelings. But there is a difference between valuing a good conversation as a means to human intimacy and growth, and valuing a good conversation because you like collecting juicy gossip and filing it away for later use as social leverage, no? (I'm not accusing you or anyone of being on the latter side of this fence, only pointing out that the fence is there.)

I don't do gossip circles as such are incredibly poisonous and I very strongly look down on people who do it especially when the person(s) they are back biting are close to home or on the job for which does cause some pretty real drama.