Revisiting Feminism: INFJ (or other type) perspectives | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

Revisiting Feminism: INFJ (or other type) perspectives

Humans exhibit sexual dimorphism, which is also seen in apes and monkeys. This means that there are distinct difference between men and women. On average men are larger than women, but just because the average male is physically stronger than the average female does not mean that all males are stronger than all females. There is some overlap. Think of a bimodal distribution with overlap on a graph. This can apply to other traits as well. I think it is entirely reasonable to allow men and women to perform tasks that they are good at, while recognizing their differences. On overall intelligence studies, men and women show little difference, although on specific cognitive abilities there seems to be certain areas where the sexes perform better than the opposite sex. I approve of any feminism that is willing to look at the facts when stating their case and every man and woman should be given the chance to prove that they are capable of performing jobs they excel at over others.

I believe this too...but feminism strives to seek equality between men and women. They would say that, irregardless of physical and biological differences, men and women are equal. But they're not! And we should recognize and accept that. Within the job market, I believe that everyone should have the opportunity to apply and be considered for a position- but it does a disservice to women if they are considered (or hired) only because they have to meet a gender quota. They should be hired based on their capabilities- regardless of gender, race, sexuality, etc.
 
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Feminism is narrow, that's the point. It is focusing on the problems of females in particular. It should not be used to diminish other social issues that are separate from specific women's issues but I see nothing wrong with having a branch of constructivism that deals specifically with women's issues, like there should a branch for men's issues, children's issues, racial issues (divided into specific issues for particular racial groups), sexual-orientation issues...you get the idea. I see it as just a way to subdivide the big issues into more specific areas to be able to deal with them in a more effective manner.

Feminism doesn't come even close to capturing all of today's issues but it can help with specific issues regarding a very large segment of society. I would fully support any group that studies any other specific issues, as long as it is done in a constructive way that doesn't denigrate another group (that goes for feminism as well).

You see, I see feminism today as a lobby group for women's rights- which is great! But it's not was feminism is about, and I don't think women rights lobbiests should be calling themselves feminists.
 
I think an interesting concept within feminism is the liberation of women's sexuality and sexual freedom - but they hold a lot of criticism towards prostitution, pornography, or erotic dancing....which I think goes against their idea of liberating women!
 
I believe this too...but feminism strives to seek equality between men and women. They would say that, irregardless of physical and biological differences, men and women are equal. But they're not!

Merriam-Webster's full Definition of FEMINISM

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

I think men and women should be equal, different but equal. This means having to consider the specific needs of both men and women so they both have the same 'political, economic, and social' opportunities. This doesn't mean that the needs are identical but rather equal, so that nobody is consider 'lesser' than the other. I would use the example of my two sons. They are two very different individuals. They have always each needed different things from me, and I tried very hard to give them each what they needed while treating them equally. If I had treated them exactly the same it would not have been equal because it would likely have been to the advantage of one over the other (probably the one who is more similar to me). It's not an easy thing to do but if you truly care to love each one individually and help them each to become the best version of themselves that they can be you strive to do this. I always say that I must have been fairly even because each one has always claimed that I was nicer to their brother, which I guess equals everything out.

I agree this is one place that feminism can get it wrong, men and women are not identical, but they are all human beings who have a right to have their specific humanitarian needs met. I don't think that we have to force women to go into traditional male jobs, but I do believe that if they are so inclined that they should not feel that it is out of their reach simply because they are female.
 
yes - i dont think feminism seeks to solve all of the worlds problems. and there are different schools of feminist thought that focus on race or economics. but i really do think that there are problems remaining to do with gender specifically that span across these other divisions.

as for feminist theories having been taken in strange directions - all the more reason to engage with the theory, to take it back where it should be! besides which its very very interesting!

as another note im not sure that the debate of nature vs nurture in shaping gender has been completely settled as culturally determined. to my knowledge that debate continues with some interesting arguments from both sides.
 
I think an interesting concept within feminism is the liberation of women's sexuality and sexual freedom - but they hold a lot of criticism towards prostitution, pornography, or erotic dancing....which I think goes against their idea of liberating women!

That is probably the most contentious issue in feminism today. Feminists don't agree on this at all. Is prostitution and erotic dancing really liberation? I think that is a very subjective issue. I would feel more free as a stay-at-home mom than as a prostitute any day.

I guess women themselves can't decide what is best for women (probably because that is very individual). That's why open and respectful discussions on feminism are still really important in my opinion.
 
yes - i dont think feminism seeks to solve all of the worlds problems. and there are different schools of feminist thought that focus on race or economics. but i really do think that there are problems remaining to do with gender specifically that span across these other divisions.

as for feminist theories having been taken in strange directions - all the more reason to engage with the theory, to take it back where it should be! besides which its very very interesting!

as another note im not sure that the debate of nature vs nurture in shaping gender has been completely settled as culturally determined. to my knowledge that debate continues with some interesting arguments from both sides.

Both sides have really interesting arguments! I don't think it'll ever be solved because the underlying ontology is completely different for the two perspectives!

It's the same with feminism and competing theories...no one theory can accurately describe how complex reality is. I do agree that feminism has it's merits, but I also think those that use it today, misrepresent what it's about. As a woman, I support equality of women, and have experienced sexism and the oppression of my gender...but as a woman, I believe that a lot of the feminists today aren't helping women out. I battle with how I feel about feminism a lot, but I think deep down- I'm not a feminist...but I hate saying that because woman who aren't feminists get a bad rap (just read through this thread, and how anti-feminists - especially women- are seen as dumb and ill-informed!).

I think we need to focus and understand gender and it's implications- gender in and of itself is much more complicated than just male and female - but I think it's more than that. The oppression comes for a white, upper class, male dominated world - and changing just the male component won't solve the oppression.
 
as for feminist theories having been taken in strange directions - all the more reason to engage with the theory, to take it back where it should be! besides which its very very interesting!

I like the way you think!
 
As a woman, I support equality of women, and have experienced sexism and the oppression of my gender...but as a woman, I believe that a lot of the feminists today aren't helping women out. I battle with how I feel about feminism a lot, but I think deep down- I'm not a feminist...but I hate saying that because woman who aren't feminists get a bad rap (just read through this thread, and how anti-feminists - especially women- are seen as dumb and ill-informed!).

I think we need to focus and understand gender and it's implications- gender in and of itself is much more complicated than just male and female - but I think it's more than that. The oppression comes for a white, upper class, male dominated world - and changing just the male component won't solve the oppression.

I hope that you don't feel that I am claiming that you are dumb or ill-informed. I do not feel this way at all. I just sincerely can't understand the idea that someone who believes in the equality of women thinks that there is something wrong with calling yourself a feminist. I subscribe to the simple definition of feminism (that's why I posted it) and believe that if this is important to you than you are a feminist wether you call yourself that or not. That's my view. I completely agree that too many people calling themselves feminists have used the term for the wrong purpose but that doesn't change the basic definition of feminism. Just like I call myself a Christian but I do not subscribe to the same views as a 'Right Wing Evengelical Christian' who no doubt believe that they are much more Christian than me, I also call myself a 'feminist' but do not subscribe to a lot of things that are spewed by so-called 'feminists'. In my view the biggest obstacle to women's equality is women themselves, not simply white upper class men (they oppress everybody).

That's just my view. Thank you for sharing yours and I do know that it is sincere and well-meaning (and well-informed). I just think overall we are really debating semantics and I really think it's too bad that fighting for the rights of women gets viewed as somehow 'bad'.
 
I hope that you don't feel that I am claiming that you are dumb or ill-informed. I do not feel this way at all. I just sincerely can't understand the idea that someone who believes in the equality of women thinks that there is something wrong with calling yourself a feminist. I subscribe to the simple definition of feminism (that's why I posted it) and believe that if this is important to you than you are a feminist wether you call yourself that or not. That's my view. I completely agree that too many people calling themselves feminists have used the term for the wrong purpose but that doesn't change the basic definition of feminism. Just like I call myself a Christian but I do not subscribe to the same views as a 'Right Wing Evengelical Christian' who no doubt believe that they are much more Christian than me, I also call myself a 'feminist' but do not subscribe to a lot of things that are spewed by so-called 'feminists'. In my view the biggest obstacle to women's equality is women themselves, not simply white upper class men (they oppress everybody).

That's just my view. Thank you for sharing yours and I do know that it is sincere and well-meaning (and well-informed). I just think overall we are really debating semantics and I really think it's too bad that fighting for the rights of women gets viewed as somehow 'bad'.

I wasn't referring to you, but I do think there is a stigma around women not being feminists.

I actually just asked my lab mate about this, and we had an interesting conversation. I think there are many great things about feminism - I just don't like calling myself a feminist because of the baggage that comes with it. There are man sects of feminism, and I don't think I prescribe to any particular one. Feminism has garnered such a strong social definition and idea in society that I think it goes against it's fundamentals. I would rather align myself with constructivism, and the idea of equality for all. For me, I see the definition of feminism as a very strong and ideological laden term, that comes with a lot of history. And because of this, I tend to steer clear of it...although it's founding principles (equality for women), is something I believe in.
 
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I hope that you don't feel that I am claiming that you are dumb or ill-informed. I do not feel this way at all. I just sincerely can't understand the idea that someone who believes in the equality of women thinks that there is something wrong with calling yourself a feminist. I subscribe to the simple definition of feminism (that's why I posted it) and believe that if this is important to you than you are a feminist wether you call yourself that or not. That's my view. I completely agree that too many people calling themselves feminists have used the term for the wrong purpose but that doesn't change the basic definition of feminism. Just like I call myself a Christian but I do not subscribe to the same views as a 'Right Wing Evengelical Christian' who no doubt believe that they are much more Christian than me, I also call myself a 'feminist' but do not subscribe to a lot of things that are spewed by so-called 'feminists'. In my view the biggest obstacle to women's equality is women themselves, not simply white upper class men (they oppress everybody).

That's just my view. Thank you for sharing yours and I do know that it is sincere and well-meaning (and well-informed). I just think overall we are really debating semantics and I really think it's too bad that fighting for the rights of women gets viewed as somehow 'bad'.

I wouldn't call myself a feminist either, not because I don't believe in equal rights for women but because I believe that people have been throwing the word around so much so that it's not only lost its original meaning, it's plagued anyone who has decided to use the word especially if they choose to not define it, with its true definition, in their explanation. I respect you and your ability to use the word because you have done just that and I really admire a lot of your views. However when I see people talk to each other about these kinds of things the word feminist is thrown out and everyone shuts down. They aren't respective anymore, its not a conversation, its combative and argumentative and it gets nothing done. I've found in my own life that if I don't use words like this to label my views, if I just simply talk about them people are a lot more responsive and either strive to understand or already understand and compliment my ideals with their own. I think its shitty that, if you call yourself a feminist your view is lessened however I think it's always been that way, with every label in any given situation.
 
Just to spice things up a little can i ask the women here, what do you prefer:

weak men you can walk all over with low personal power, who are dependent and unable to express their views and opinions and unable or unwilling to stand up for themselves?

or

do you like men who are strong on their own two feet, who have their own personal strength and can stand up for themselves and who won't be walked all over?

or

something else?
 
Can i also ask both men and women if they think the woman below is empowered:

maxresdefault.jpg
 
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So....equality...are we there yet?

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

[h=1]More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals[/h] Campaign group Parity claims assaults by wives and girlfriends are often ignored by police and media


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Assaults on men represent more than 40% of domestic violence in the UK. Photograph: Sakki/Rex Features/Sakki/rex

About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.
Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have far fewer refuges to flee to than women, says a study by the men's rights campaign group Parity.
The charity's analysis of statistics on domestic violence shows the number of men attacked by wives or girlfriends is much higher than thought. Its report, Domestic Violence: The Male Perspective, states: "Domestic violence is often seen as a female victim/male perpetrator problem, but the evidence demonstrates that this is a false picture."
Data from Home Office statistical bulletins and the British Crime Survey show that men made up about 40% of domestic violence victims each year between 2004-05 and 2008-09, the last year for which figures are available. In 2006-07 men made up 43.4% of all those who had suffered partner abuse in the previous year, which rose to 45.5% in 2007-08 but fell to 37.7% in 2008-09.
Similar or slightly larger numbers of men were subjected to severe force in an incident with their partner, according to the same documents. The figure stood at 48.6% in 2006-07, 48.3% the next year and 37.5% in 2008-09, Home Office statistics show.
The 2008-09 bulletin states: "More than one in four women (28%) and around one in six men (16%) had experienced domestic abuse since the age of 16. These figures are equivalent to an estimated 4.5 million female victims of domestic abuse and 2.6 million male victims."
In addition, "6% of women and 4% of men reported having experienced domestic abuse in the past year, equivalent to an estimated one million female victims of domestic abuse and 600,000 male victims".
Campaigners claim that men are often treated as "second-class victims" and that many police forces and councils do not take them seriously. "Male victims are almost invisible to the authorities such as the police, who rarely can be prevailed upon to take the man's side," said John Mays of Parity. "Their plight is largely overlooked by the media, in official reports and in government policy, for example in the provision of refuge places – 7,500 for females in England and Wales but only 60 for men."
The official figures underestimate the true number of male victims, Mays said. "Culturally it's difficult for men to bring these incidents to the attention of the authorities. Men are reluctant to say that they've been abused by women, because it's seen as unmanly and weak."
The number of women prosecuted for domestic violence rose from 1,575 in 2004-05 to 4,266 in 2008-09. "Both men and women can be victims and we know that men feel under immense pressure to keep up the pretence that everything is OK," said Alex Neil, the housing and communities minister in the Scottish parliament. "Domestic abuse against a man is just as abhorrent as when a woman is the victim."
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'Male victims are almost invisible to the authorities,' says John Mays of Parity. Photograph: Guardian Mark Brooks of the Mankind Initiative, a helpline for victims, said: "It's a scandal that in 2010 all domestic violence victims are still not being treated equally. We reject the gendered analysis that so many in the domestic violence establishment still pursue, that the primary focus should be female victims. Each victim should be seen as an individual and helped accordingly."

[h=2]CASE STUDY[/h] Ian McNicholl, 47, has painful memories to remind him of the terror he endured when he found himself a male victim of domestic violence.
His then fiancee, Michelle Williamson, punched him in the face several times, stubbed out cigarettes on his body, lashed him with a vacuum cleaner tube, hit him with a metal bar and a hammer and even poured boiling water on to his lap. That at 6ft he was almost a foot taller than her made no difference. He still has burn marks on his left shoulder from when she used steam from an iron on him. Williamson, 35, is now serving a seven-year jail sentence for causing both actual and grievous bodily harm.
During the trial last year McNicholl told the court that, during more than a year of attacks and intimidation, he had lost his job, home and self-respect. He had been too scared to go to the police and had considered suicide. She was only arrested after two neighbours saw her punch him.
Sentencing her at Grimsby crown court last year, judge John Reddihough told Williamson: "Over the period of time you were with him you destroyed him mentally and seriously harmed him physically, leaving him with both physical and mental scars."
 
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My perspective on feminism is biased because my experience with it has been of the overwhelmingly negative side. Of course I believe there are good aspects of feminism but I have only ever been exposed to the most negative. I am talking about the male bashing, feminine power, emotionally and psychologically abusive type of feminism. The kind that turns the word feminism into an insult and a joke.

These women are the type that don't think men and women are equal, they think women are better than men and only want to see men serve them. They see men as their enemy, something to be despised and something that is untrustworthy. They see men only as the stereotypes that depict them, as cheating, emotionless, manipulative and sex hungry animals.

It is a very unhealthy and destructive perspective and I think that women like this that blame men for every problem in their life are pathetic. Harsh words but like I said, my experience with them has been very negative and I have no sympathy for what they talk about. I think they are a sad and pathetic joke. They don't want equality, they want to reverse the roles.
 
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I know I will have problems saying this, but anyway, here is my opinion on feminism. I will not argue my position, I will just statet it.

In most cases, feminism has stolen femininity. The price is huge, and so are the devastatings effects of that. Femininity is gone in most of the places where its philosophy has developed.

On the other side, some and only some of the premises of feminism I would agree with, the most important being the one that strive for the equality of genders.
 
Can i also ask both men and women if they think the woman below is empowered:

View attachment 19671

This is interesting.

Honestly, I see her as empowered. She is choosing to act this way and convey an over-sexualized message [I don't agree with her message!]...but it is her body, and she should be able to present it in any way that she wants.

Anyone and everyone should have the opportunity to express themselves in any fashion they want (as long as it doesn't harm someone else). Miley may be misguided, and yes the overt sexilization of women in fantasy and fetish roles is likely driving this message, but on an individual basis- she is free to do whatever she pleases.
 
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It seems to me that our society is all kinds of messed up!

Everyone is fighting everyone else!

But who is it that keeps on winning out of all the conflict?

Who keeps getting more power and influence whilst everyone else is busy bashing each other?

Are we taking our eye off the ball here?
 
It seems to me that our society is all kinds of messed up!

Everyone is fighting everyone else!

But who is it that keeps on winning out of all the conflict?

Who keeps getting more power and influence whilst everyone else is busy bashing each other?

Are we taking our eye off the ball here?

I agree. Sometimes I get discouraged talking about the breadth of these issues. It can change on an individual level, but the scope and implications of them are so big and woven so tightly into our society and culture, that at times- it feels like it'll never change.

I think we're all saying the same thing = equality for all...we're just packaging it under different names...this conflict of defining and naming what we believe in takes so much of our time, when really, we should be trying to make it real.