Religion is my "Thang"

[meowzician]

Newbie here. I have so many interests, from music to writing. But after looking these forums over, I can tell that this religion subforum will be my main area, so I wanted to introduce myself.

The Pirkei Avot, meaning Sayings of the Fathers, says:
"Who is wise? He who learns from everyone."

I myself am a religious Jew, very involved in my Reform congregation, where I sing in the choir and serve on the Caring Community Committee. But I have found wisdom in all religions. Indeed, my thoughts have even been shaped by the atheists I've come to know and love. Judaism is not exclusivist--we do not have the "one, true, religion. We have OUR religion, and we are perfectly fine with you having yours.

Sooner or later it inevitably happens that someone will ask, Who are the Jews? Are you a religion? A race? A nationality? Jews pre-existed the formation of all those concepts, and we just don't fit into those boxes. So here it is. We are an "am" (the word in Hebrew). There is no English equivalent, so I will use a sentence. We are a joinable tribe with a shared history, culture, and religion. If you truly need to shorten it to one word, the closest would be Tribe. Yes, like the Lakota or Zulu or Kurds.

I'm so excited to be here! New people mean new ideas, and new ideas mean learning and growth. I have spent my entire life studying different religions, and am always hungry for new things. If I question you and push you, it is not because I am not listening. It is to see how well your ideas hold up under scrutiny. In fact, if I argue with you, that is the best sign that I *am* listening to you. In Jewish culture, we debate everything because we believe that in the process of debate the truth will rise to the surface.

One last thing: although you can expect posts from me on all sorts of different topics, it is inevitable that the rise in antisemitism will come up. It's something that I lose sleep over, and hope that I will be able to share a bit of what is on my heart. We live in troubled times in so many different ways--Jews are far from the only people who have very, very real concerns, and I deeply care about all who are being marginalized and pushed down. But this is my own tsurris. Synagogues are being burned down. Jewish preschools are being bombed. Jewish families celebrating at the beach are being shot. We've seen all this before, and it is impossible for it not to be a major worry on the heart of every Jew.

Oh, and I am crazy about cats. Meow!

Anyhow, I do look forward to getting to know all of you! This is my official invitation for you to introduce yourselves, now.

 

[Fruiteloop]

I was raised in a Christian home so I know many things about religion also.

But I was never aware of history accept for the fall of Rome and the legend King Arthur 500 A.D.

So like 70 A.D. to 1400 A.D. I know nothing about. (very fragmented)

I do not know about the Talmud accept that is book Jewish people created in that time with more than 12? books in it.

The culture been around a long time but I have just read the new testament fully and genesis and exodus. The rest I know from bible cartoons like veggie-tales.

 

[Wyote]

Love is my thang
It's also kinda my religion I guess

 

[meowzician]

I was raised in a Christian home so I know many things about religion also.

Lovely. I hope and pray that you will become the very best Christian you can be. Do you still go to church? Do Easter and Christmas and stuff? How does your upbringing affect your life today?

But I was never aware of history accept for the fall of Rome and the legend King Arthur 500 A.D.

So like 70 A.D. to 1400 A.D. I know nothing about. (very fragmented)

Oh my goodness! There are so many interesting things during that period! Since you are Christian, you might really enjoy reading about the fourth century. That's when your New Testament canon was formed. It's also when the Council of Nicea was held, which made Trinitarianism dogma for Christians. It's when all the bishops decided to start celebrating Christmas on the same day, and picked December 25. And finally, it's when Emperor Theodosius made Christianity the national religion of the Roman Empire. It was a really big century for Christians!

I do not know about the Talmud accept that is book Jewish people created in that time with more than 12? books in it.

The Talmud is essentially the records of the Rabbis arguing about all sorts of stuff. What does this mean and what does that mean and how should we do this or that. So let's say you have issue x. You might get four different Rabbis chiming in, all of them with different and often conflicting opinions. Sometimes what you read was adopted into Judaism. And other times it was just a bad idea that was thought about and rejected, never becoming part of Judaism.

If you have both the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud, it is over 70, that's right SEVENTY volumes long. LOL

The culture been around a long time but I have just read the new testament fully and genesis and exodus.

Although your New Testament is not a sacred text for me, there are things within it that I appreciate. I very much love many of Jesus' parables such as the Good Samaritan and the Sheep and the Goats.

Genesis and Exodus are the first two books of the five Books of Moses, what we all the Torah. In our synagogues, these five books are written with quill and ink by hand in Hebrew onto huge scrolls which are kept in bureau kind of thing we call an ark. On Shabbat (sabbath) the Torah is taken out and not just read, but chanted.

Do you have a favorite story from Genesis or Exodus? Mine is the story of Joseph. When my life is spinning out of control and I'm just getting hit hard, it's nice to be reminded that God has a plan.

The rest I know from bible cartoons like veggie-tales.

Awwww! Veggie Tales are so cool! I used to watch them with my kids. Our favorite was the one about Madame Blueberry. Every time we would go to Walmart or Target, we'd all say, "Stuuuuffff Maaaart!"

 

[meowzician]

Love is my thang
It's also kinda my religion I guess

I think Love makes a great Higher Power.

 

[Akar]

Lovely. I hope and pray that you will become the very best Christian you can be. Do you still go to church? Do Easter and Christmas and stuff? How does your upbringing affect your life today?

Oh my goodness! There are so many interesting things during that period! Since you are Christian, you might really enjoy reading about the fourth century. That's when your New Testament canon was formed. It's also when the Council of Nicea was held, which made Trinitarianism dogma for Christians. It's when all the bishops decided to start celebrating Christmas on the same day, and picked December 25. And finally, it's when Emperor Theodosius made Christianity the national religion of the Roman Empire. It was a really big century for Christians!

The Talmud is essentially the records of the Rabbis arguing about all sorts of stuff. What does this mean and what does that mean and how should we do this or that. So let's say you have issue x. You might get four different Rabbis chiming in, all of them with different and often conflicting opinions. Sometimes what you read was adopted into Judaism. And other times it was just a bad idea that was thought about and rejected, never becoming part of Judaism.

If you have both the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud, it is over 70, that's right SEVENTY volumes long. LOL

View attachment 101996

Although your New Testament is not a sacred text for me, there are things within it that I appreciate. I very much love many of Jesus' parables such as the Good Samaritan and the Sheep and the Goats.

Genesis and Exodus are the first two books of the five Books of Moses, what we all the Torah. In our synagogues, these five books are written with quill and ink by hand in Hebrew onto huge scrolls which are kept in bureau kind of thing we call an ark. On Shabbat (sabbath) the Torah is taken out and not just read, but chanted.

Do you have a favorite story from Genesis or Exodus? Mine is the story of Joseph. When my life is spinning out of control and I'm just getting hit hard, it's nice to be reminded that God has a plan.

Awwww! Veggie Tales are so cool! I used to watch them with my kids. Our favorite was the one about Madame Blueberry. Every time we would go to Walmart or Target, we'd all say, "Stuuuuffff Maaaart!"

Forgive my intrusion, and a pleasure to meet you.
I must confess my own ignorance. I was wondering... do you recall which language Jesus used to spread his message? Was it Sanskrit, Latin, or perhaps Babylonian? My memory fails me.

Please, feel free to ignore this if it’s too trivial a question

-Giammarco

 

[TomasM]

Sometimes what you read was adopted into Judaism. And other times it was just a bad idea that was thought about and rejected, never becoming part of Judaism.

Fascinating, I've never heard this before. Who decides and what is the basis for the decision.

It seems so conflicting when rational thought and faith try to intersect - not that both aren't important.

 

[Fruiteloop]

Lovely. I hope and pray that you will become the very best Christian you can be. Do you still go to church? Do Easter and Christmas and stuff? How does your upbringing affect your life today?

It influenced me both morally and philosophically.

That is to say I came from this stance that many questions existed I had no answers to and since most denominations disagreed I had to look at it from a different perspective that just following a strictly led set of commands because who would be the authority and all that?

If no human authority exists then that means I need to figure it out by myself. Its not right that people should be in charge of another persons spiritual autonomy because that mean they were more important than God and I find it hard to justify.

So I no longer go to church because they expect you to become part of a belief system around certain doctrines that if you question them you get kicked out. The basics are good. Love your neighbor and love God but then you find disagreement that if I were to go to church those questions would not good to bring up and the only reason to go is to sing songs and listen to the pasters sermons which reflect their views in that church. I do appreciate those sermons but I got bored hearing the exact same things over and over.

So instead I study things that would be in the bible or not be in the bible and do not make it a Strick thing. For example many technologies are not in the bible and I went to a middle school about science. Some people want to keep the bible separate from other subjects but I cannot do so because I know things about reality and need to know where they fit in.

I celebrate Christmas and Easter with my family but other than that I think those holidays create other divisions as well.

Such as, is Christmas pagan or not, or what day did Jesus enter and get out of the tomb and where.
These are important questions but they should not be something that divides people but they do.

As long as its causes no harm I do not mind what people do but in the Strick sense people disagree and why I find any one authority troublesome.

Oh my goodness! There are so many interesting things during that period! Since you are Christian, you might really enjoy reading about the fourth century. That's when your New Testament canon was formed. It's also when the Council of Nicea was held, which made Trinitarianism dogma for Christians. It's when all the bishops decided to start celebrating Christmas on the same day, and picked December 25. And finally, it's when Emperor Theodosius made Christianity the national religion of the Roman Empire. It was a really big century for Christians!

The church was not unified in the sense most people think of it because as today many disagreements existed.

A person I know who is catholic said the catholic church always existed because catholic means universal but that neglects the facts that politics was involved. The Vatican did not exist prior to Christianity being legalized and many Gnostic teaching made people say they were Christians and you could not tell who was and who was not. So if you just say universal = catholic then sure but other things were involved and east orthodox people said 12 popes exist one for each apostle not only the one in Rome. So its complicated what it means to be Christian for me. I do not mind that people think in the way they do but if I know something that really seems as it should be taken into consideration in history then it needs to be taken into consideration. Many people reject facts about what has happened and so I keep to myself in debates where it seems we cannot agree on those. I can be open with many people but for other people we just do not agree.

The Talmud is essentially the records of the Rabbis arguing about all sorts of stuff. What does this mean and what does that mean and how should we do this or that. So let's say you have issue x. You might get four different Rabbis chiming in, all of them with different and often conflicting opinions. Sometimes what you read was adopted into Judaism. And other times it was just a bad idea that was thought about and rejected, never becoming part of Judaism.

If you have both the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud, it is over 70, that's right SEVENTY volumes long. LOL

View attachment 101996

Although your New Testament is not a sacred text for me, there are things within it that I appreciate. I very much love many of Jesus' parables such as the Good Samaritan and the Sheep and the Goats.

I like the sermon on the mount and also the way Jesus talked in the way he did such as parables because this means you need to think about what he said and not just go with whatever concrete statement might have been made. Metaphors analogies and everything else abstract make it such that it is harder to convince people who have read it that you should obey others blindly and we really need to search our own hearts to discern what it is God wants us to do. That takes understanding language and self reflection. God is not interested in making people into pawns. That when people find out that you need to do the right thing then the right thing must be understood. If it is not understood we blindly do what we do.

It makes sense then that reading and writing are important conditions for self understanding and about how God does things. Any adult knows that children can be brainwashed. So thinking for ones self is the only way to keep them from being led astray into cult like behaviors. Really if that were what God wanted he not make the books abstract. He wants people to be individuals. God talks to people because like in the book of Job if people do not think they are lost and many other parts where God lets people in the bible try and figure it out. God being a person wants a relationship. He made Adam different from the other animals (Adam could think). As long as we can come back to the right way of doing things we must think about our actions because we are limited beings.

Genesis and Exodus are the first two books of the five Books of Moses, what we all the Torah. In our synagogues, these five books are written with quill and ink by hand in Hebrew onto huge scrolls which are kept in bureau kind of thing we call an ark. On Shabbat (sabbath) the Torah is taken out and not just read, but chanted.
Do you have a favorite story from Genesis or Exodus? Mine is the story of Joseph. When my life is spinning out of control and I'm just getting hit hard, it's nice to be reminded that God has a plan.

I had not read it till 2 to 3 years ago fully but I was looking at Abraham Isaac and Jacobs stories and saw the lineages and thought about how there was so much details in who was related to who. I did not know Jacob had a daughter. 12 sons was all I knew previously.

They had to do many things to survive. Which required wisdom.

The pillar of salt lots wife turned into I think means your life is more important than any thing in this world could ever be.

Awwww! Veggie Tales are so cool! I used to watch them with my kids. Our favorite was the one about Madame Blueberry. Every time we would go to Walmart or Target, we'd all say, "Stuuuuffff Maaaart!"

I like larry the cucumber's cheeseburger song.

The veggie-tale movie Jonah came out in 2004

I always found that story of how God forgives people a good story.

We need to care about people and that people can change. God knows what to do.

 

[meowzician]

It influenced me both morally and philosophically.

That is to say I came from this stance that many questions existed I had no answers to and since most denominations disagreed I had to look at it from a different perspective that just following a strictly led set of commands because who would be the authority and all that?

If no human authority exists then that means I need to figure it out by myself.

I totally get ya!!!!

I'm so lucky, lucky, lucky that Reform Judaism preserves that individual autonomy. We'll all sit around the table with the Rabbi studying the Torah, and we'll read things the sages have written. But even though we hold them in the deepest of respect, it's not uncommon for someone at the table to say, "You know, that doesn't work for me. I think..." So, we feel free to disagree with the sages, to disagree with each other, and to disagree with the Rabbi. In fact, the Rabbi's favorite is the one who asks hard questions. LOL It really is wonderful.

So I no longer go to church because they expect you to become part of a belief system around certain doctrines that if you question them you get kicked out.

I totally get you. I hear this from many, many people. In my past life as a Christian, it just reached a point that I was no longer acceptable. So I left. I do think there are places within Christianity that are exceptions to the rule, like the Anglican church, but they can be difficult to find.

The basics are good. Love your neighbor and love God

See there you have it. Girl, we are so on the same page. Hillel said, "What is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the WHOLE Torah. All the rest is commentary."

the only reason to go is to sing songs and listen to the pasters sermons which reflect their views in that church. I do appreciate those sermons but I got bored hearing the exact same things over and over.

Well, for me, singing songs is a core part of my spirituality, but I agree that in the churches I attended, the sermons seemed to be directed at the lowest common denominator. I know it sounds awful, but I just sort of tuned out during sermons.

So instead I study things that would be in the bible or not be in the bible and do not make it a Strick thing. For example many technologies are not in the bible and I went to a middle school about science. Some people want to keep the bible separate from other subjects but I cannot do so because I know things about reality and need to know where they fit in.

Oh me too! Other people put the things of life into boxes. But when I look out on the universe, I see an enormous web where everything is connected to everything else. Do you think this is an INFJ thing?

The Vatican did not exist prior to Christianity being legalized

It is fascinating to me that Jesus believers started out as a Jewish sect. The Nazarenes in Jerusalem under James continued to practice second Temple Judaism in every way, including sacrifices. Acts says, "And they are all zealous for Torah."

But once non-Jews started becoming Christians, it just changed the culture. By the end of the first century, Christianity had become a completely separate religion that saw Judaism as a competitor.

We know from Ignatius' letter to the Smyrnaeans that some time before the end of that first century Christians were referring to themselves as the Catholic Church.

In 96 CE, Clement, the bishop of Rome, wrote an authoritative letter to the church at Corinth--which was the jurisdiction of a totally different bishop! Meaning that even the supremacy of the bishop of Rome was forming by the end of the first century CE.

When you stop to think about it, the speed of all those changes is staggering!

So its complicated what it means to be Christian for me.

If you try to put it into your words without any judgement from me, what would you say? I'm interested in you and where you are coming from.

I like the sermon on the mount

I have a little tidbit that will augment your understanding and appreciation of the sermon on the mount.

The opening of the Pirkei Avot says, "The Men of the Great Assembly said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.” This was an approach by the Pharisees that meant, rather than accidently finding yourself in a position where you violate a commandment, avoid coming even close to doing so. It's the same idea that Catholics express in the saying, "Avoid the near occasion of sin."

Welp, you see Jesus doing exactly that in the sermon on the mount. You want to avoid murder? Manage your anger! You want to avoid adultery? Manage your lust! He makes a fence around the Torah. Cool, eh?

and also the way Jesus talked in the way he did such as parables because this means you need to think about what he said and not just go with whatever concrete statement might have been made.

One of the things I'm fond of saying is that there is no better way to morals and values than stories.

Metaphors analogies and everything else abstract make it such that it is harder to convince people who have read it that you should obey others blindly and we really need to search our own hearts to discern what it is God wants us to do. That takes understanding language and self reflection. God is not interested in making people into pawns. That when people find out that you need to do the right thing then the right thing must be understood. If it is not understood we blindly do what we do.

Have you ever noticed that there are stories in the Bible of people arguing with God over ethics? Abraham argued with God to save innocent people in Sodom. When God planned on killing all the Israelites for the golden calf, Moses argued with God and even changed God's mind! Wow. And Jacob wrestled with God. The very name "Israel" means "prevailed against God." God says, "Come let us reason together." Churches may say, "Don't question!" But that is not what God says.

God being a person wants a relationship.

This is core. In your opinion, what are some of the things a person can do to nurture such a relationship?

I did not know Jacob had a daughter.

Oh man! Yes! The story of Dinah's rape and the massacre at Shechem is incredible. When people ask me, "Why should we have an eye for an eye?" I reply, "Because if there is no justice, an eye for an eye, what you have is Shechem, two eyes for an eye plus the eyes of your children."

I like larry the cucumber's cheeseburger song.

Sometimes to be funny, my son or I will bug each other by creating an ear worm with, "Oh where.... is my hairbrush!" LOL That or Baby Shark.

 

[meowzician]

Fascinating, I've never heard this before. Who decides and what is the basis for the decision.

A consensus forms over time. It is almost always reflected in the teachings of later Rabbis. And sometimes no agreement is ever reached. There is a saying, "Two Jews, three opinions." We are every bit as diverse as Christians; we just don't kill each other over our disagreements. It's a very different culture.

It seems so conflicting when rational thought and faith try to intersect - not that both aren't important.

I look at it like I'm viewing an apple from many different angles. Science is for me simply one of many angles. So is reasoning. So is inspiration, moral teachings, how it functions in Jewish history and culture, emotional response...

 

[meowzician]

Forgive my intrusion, and a pleasure to meet you.
I must confess my own ignorance. I was wondering... do you recall which language Jesus used to spread his message? Was it Sanskrit, Latin, or perhaps Babylonian? My memory fails me.

Please, feel free to ignore this if it’s too trivial a question

-Giammarco

No such thing as a trivial question. And so very nice to meet you. Could you tell me a little bit about yourself?

Since Jesus was a Jew living in Judea and the nearby provinces, his first language would have been Aramaic because that was the language used all around him, and he would have learned Hebrew in early childhood in order to read the Torah and sing Psalms in the synagogue.

 

[TomasM]

I look at it like I'm viewing an apple from many different angles. Science is for me simply one of many angles. So is reasoning. So is inspiration, moral teachings, how it functions in Jewish history and culture, emotional response...

What about God? You didn’t mention God or faith.

We are every bit as diverse as Christians; we just don't kill each other over our disagreements. It's a very different culture.

I think all of the Abrahamic faiths are peaceful at their core. Most families and people want safety and prosperity it’s usually when radicals and government get involved when the “killing,” starts to emerge. I like to believe it could stop but I also like to believe people would be better to each other and yet we still see crime and violence everywhere. It’s built into the species - so prayer is required.

 

[meowzician]

What about God? You didn’t mention God or faith.

That is the apple that I'm looking at in my metaphor.

I can talk about my God and my faith if you wish, but it would take a book to lay it all out. I you have a specific question, I'm more than open.

How about you? Your response sounds like it's coming from a man of God and faith. I'd love to hear about yours.

I think all of the Abrahamic faiths are peaceful at their core. Most families and people want safety and prosperity it’s usually when radicals and government get involved when the “killing,” starts to emerge.

We are on the same page!!!! It is unfortunate, but every group has its lunatic fringe. Also, when religion and state become intertwined, it corrupts both the religion and the state.

I like to believe it could stop but I also like to believe people would be better to each other and yet we still see crime and violence everywhere. It’s built into the species - so prayer is required.

There is a saying, "Pray to God and row for shore." I think prayer is good and I pray all the time. But action is better. Nothing is going to change unless we change it. Ever hear of the guy who lost his job and kept praying for a new job but never bothered to look for one?

 

[Akar]

No such thing as a trivial question. And so very nice to meet you. Could you tell me a little bit about yourself?

Since Jesus was a Jew living in Judea and the nearby provinces, his first language would have been Aramaic because that was the language used all around him, and he would have learned Hebrew in early childhood in order to read the Torah and sing Psalms in the synagogue.

Aramaic! Of course. My memory plays tricks, thank you for clarifying that for me. It’s fascinating how such a specific language carried such a universal message.

As for me, there isn’t much to say. I’m just a simple carpenter who enjoys observing how the world is builtmuch like a technician looks at a machine. I find that sometimes the smallest details, like a forgotten language or a specific question, reveal the most about the entire structure

Nice to meet you!


-Giammarco

 

[TomasM]

I can talk about my God and my faith if you wish, but it would take a book to lay it all out.

I was just asking because the context was related to how decisions are made about what is adopted into Judaism. You said the rabbis argue and debate and some things are adopted and other things seem to fade away (I'm paraphrasing). It made me wonder where God was in that process of adoption. I know the rabbis pray and commit, I was just curious.

How about you? Your response sounds like it's coming from a man of God and faith.

Yes I am, but my connection is very personal and I don't usually share it in full but little pieces come out depending on the context of my interactions. I feel that people have to find their own way to God and if they are pushed or influenced it can create doubt on how they arrived at their own belief and faith. For some people it can even create anger or distrust so I limit my dialogue to experience and what helps people in moments of need - they usually appreciate that even if they don't have belief or faith. That said, I don't like aggression and stereotypes about my faith so I will hold my ground when that happens - I'm sure you understand how and why that is important.

 

[meowzician]

Yes I am, but my connection is very personal and I don't usually share it in full but little pieces come out depending on the context of my interactions.

This I so understand! I understand both the "very personal" thing--there are people out there, both religious and non-religious, who are more inclined to pounce than appreciate when you share on spiritual matters--and also the thing about only pieces coming out in the context of discussions.

I feel that people have to find their own way to God and if they are pushed or influenced it can create doubt on how they arrived at their own belief and faith.

I agree. I have a word for religious communities that are controlling like that: toxic.

But there is also one caveat, and that is children. I think of religion as scaffolding and spirituality as the morning glory vine that grows upon it. To me, spirituality means our relationship with the divine and how this impacts our behaviors towards others. Without scaffolding, the vine can certainly still grow, but it is all over the ground. A scaffolding allows the morning glory more opportunity to spread out, and in the spreading to receive more sunlight and thrive.

When children are very young, they need a world that is true/false, good/bad, right/wrong, black/white. It's not a bad thing. It is a normal stage of their spiritual development. They need that scaffolding to be built. I don't look upon it as brainwashing. I see it as giving them the tools they need. As they mature and begin thinking more for themselves, they become free to keep all of it, to pick and choose, or to completely ditch it. But it was there for them when they were young and needed it and as adults it gives them choices and opportunities they otherwise would not have had.

And even if they choose to ditch it as adults, it is still there for them should a situation arise where they need it again. Just earlier this week I was talking to a friend of mine who is an atheist. But every year on the anniversary of his mother's death, he attends synagogue and says Kaddish for her. Kaddish is our prayer for the dead. The scaffolding is there for him. It gives him his people to lean on and share his pain, it gives him something to say when words fail him, and it gives him something to do that expresses how deeply he continues to miss her.

For some people it can even create anger or distrust so I limit my dialogue to experience and what helps people in moments of need - they usually appreciate that even if they don't have belief or faith.

I completely understand.

That said, I don't like aggression and stereotypes about my faith so I will hold my ground when that happens - I'm sure you understand how and why that is important.

I'm still not sure what your faith is. You do sound unusually reluctant to share it, and I'm not here to push you. But you've obviously had some very bad experiences with being bashed about it, so I can completely understand that reluctance. With me,please share only what you are comfortable with.

 

[meowzician]

I was just asking because the context was related to how decisions are made about what is adopted into Judaism. You said the rabbis argue and debate and some things are adopted and other things seem to fade away (I'm paraphrasing). It made me wonder where God was in that process of adoption. I know the rabbis pray and commit, I was just curious.

Jews are an incredibly diverse people and there are as many answers to your question as there are Jews. The Rabbis are no different. Everyone is wired differently. There are Jews for whom the presence of God is almost tangible. And there are Jews who feel absolutely nothing and think we are all nuts. There are Rabbis who are highly Orthodox and will not question the Torah or the big whigs among the sages. And there are Rabbis who believe that questioning itself is an important part of Judaism, who encourage Jews to look within and without for our own answers. There are Rabbis who find God in the structure. There are Rabbis who find God in the written word. There are Rabbis who find God in community. There are Rabbis who are incredible mystics and find God in every flower, rock, and tree. So God is always there, always the guiding force, just in different ways for different Rabbis.

 

[John K]

Hi @meowzician

I'm a cradle Catholic. I was interested in the brief discussion here about the use of the word because I don't think the Roman Catholic church is the same as was meant by the word 'catholic' in the first 5-10 centuries or so of Christianity. Catholic originally just meant universal, and I believe it applied to all who could sincerely profess the Nicene Creed once it's form had settled down. The same term (I believe in one, holy, catholic church) still appears in the creed as used by the Orthodox and many Protestant churches, as well as my own.

My feeling is that folks are often too black and white when looking at organised Christian communities. I find that for me it's best to think of the Roman Catholic church, by analogy, as I might think of living in a large city I've chosen. There are aspects that impact on all who live there - the climate, proximity and ease of access to open countryside, or the sea, etc. But there other aspects that the inhabitants are free to use or not. I might want access to good libraries and certain sorts of specialised retail outlets, others may want access to high quality sports as participants and as spectators. These groups of people can select the facilities of the city they want and can leave the others alone - no-one is forcing you to go to a ball game or a concert hall if that's not your thing, though you may have to allow for a little inconvenience on the days of big matches. Cities cater for many different sorts of people with many different needs and desires - and these may change for each of us over time. You can't expect to like or need all a city's features and there may be parts of it you dislike a lot - but you can mostly avoid or at least put up with these.

I think the Roman Catholic Church is like this - like the Jewish religion it runs all the way from organised and structured worship, through many sorts of public service, through many social activities, to the deepest of mystical prayer and experience. As such it can cater for a very wide range of folks with very different spiritual paths from each other. As I have learnt over many decades too, an organised religious community such as the Catholic Church (as well as many others) provides individuals with very great support when life is difficult, or you hit a spiritual dry patch.

But I don't think this is the only way up the mountain - there is only one peak and as long as a path is going upwards towards the summit, maybe it doesn't matter where you start from, though, like climbing Everest, some ways up may be more challenging than others.

In the end, for me what matters is not the outer form, but the heart within. A true spiritual path brings us to the possibility of a direct and loving experience of the divine person within each of us, and to be aware of and to love that divine spark within all people - and to accept it as a gift freely given to anyone who can take it.

 

[Fruiteloop]

@meowzician

This is my general view of what I meant by the complications of understanding Christianity.

The thing about black and white thinking is that when I was in my 20's I still encountered people who made out that the bible and everything about it was still black and white. Even today some groups target college students not maliciously but because they are young and have no fully formed opinions and they say: "Look at this we have all the answers to what you should believe." I never went to college but I did spend time on the internet looking at people debate each other.

I agree that scaffolding should be done by the parents and I guess its true not many people had Christian upbringings but it is that the generation before mine had ways of doing things we did not. After WW2 the government or the people who were behind it which were businesses and people in general wanted life to be different than the great depression. They wanted a world of abundance and also that was the time in the untied states where the bible industry became popular and where the terms of the progressive era came from (1880 - 1920s) They had all this literature written for how to make Christianity available to the public. The media was just getting into public life with Television and before the internet.

The point I think is to have people know about Christianity before they have kids so they can pass it on. That is the reason I suppose my mom took me to bible camp where we did games and camping activities based on the bible. You really were isolated back in the 1970's and my mom had lots of church friends and networks of people who believed. But in my case I was adapting to a different culture with all these toys, cartoons and schooling not available back then. My mom was born in the 1950s so many things happened I was aware of from tv and the history channel tv program.

Church really did make me afraid at some of the messages because somethings you should not tell kids, those are adult services.
I was not a contrarian person and did not think about if God was real or not, church said he was real and I believed it.
But when I left home I found out that people are not all on the same page.
I myself got into arguments because it was odd how others think.

I actually knew a blind man named Paul my moms age and he said to me: so Richard Dawkins is your authority not the bible.

This made me very uncomfortable because not only was he expecting me to "blindly" follow some one but that he was insulting my intellect that I would do such a thing and not actually make my own analysis of what it true or not. That was when I realized people are or can be stupid and not able to think for themselves and this is why some force there ideas onto others.

I am not saying this is the essence of religion but it does show people can be influenced as to how they think others think. If he thought I was stupid and that I can be influenced to believe propaganda and that means I should follow the right propaganda instead of wrong ones.

Being in my 20's I realized that he was right in some ways but wrong about me. That made me look into such things as conspiracy theories. Why do people fall for them. I concluded that the government understood this a long time. Mostly from the United States congress church commission (1975) and before that. This is a side track though. Just a history lesson about what I found out.

So in reality people are not all the same. So if people are high or low intellect they view things differently. Some are more forceful than others. But this takes away nothing from what I should or should not believe. I am just keenly aware of how people influence others for positive or negative.

Religion then is not about what others tell you to believe. It is what you can know yourself. The world is way to complicated to just follow one person who says they have all the answers. They do not, no one does and as adults people should be wise to what people do. Some one actually called me on the phone saying they kidnapped my sister once. She was fine but you should not just be blind to the way things happen in this world.

Ones experience of what happens is valuable then because children need real adults. Ones spiritually can be about God and all related but everyone needs to be careful. I know not everyone has spiritual experience so cannot understand it fully yet and so I do not try and convince people unless they ask me about it in an open way. Otherwise the years of being in ones 20's shapes people allot which I remember in my time with religion and other things.

 

[Akar]

I realize it’s an hour-long video, but considering the delicacy of the topics we are touching on, I believe an hour-long summary of St. Thomas Aquinas's logic is time well spent. He is often referred to as the "Christian Aristotle."
There is a great correlation with Plato around the 28-minute mark.(By the way, it also has an English translation,AI-generated, of course! )


I hope this doesn't offend anyone



-Giammarco