Quotas - The chosen ones

[SandMizzle]

Hey!

A few days ago I had a discussion with a friend about quotas. In this case we talked about people, who are chosen, because they have a particular skin colour/sex/religion/etc., for a job, although they are not the best applicants.

I had a hard time arguing here, because:

1. For me all people are equal (until I get to know them), I don't judge them by where they come from, what skin colour they have, or if they are female or male, this is nothing you can choose, so it has nothing to do with oneself.

2. In many settings there are discriminations, because the male chef for example doesn't think his female employee can handle her work, because she is a woman, even though she is better than her male co-workers, and so she doesn't get a promotion, although she would have deserved it. (I know, a cliché example^^)

3. If someone is discriminated against, help should be provided and fair compensation should be created.

4. Quotas fight against discrimination and use discrimination as a tool. Now one can say: "Yeah, you see, quotas are shit, deal with it!" But then I would ask: "Hey, just one moment! If we could change the whole system and eliminate the selfishness, complexes and hidden fears in people so everyone would be seen as equal by everyone then we wouldn't need quotas. But if that doesn't happen, and trust me, if I look at humanity, it won't, then why shouldn't we provide balance in discrimination and favour the once who were discriminated against." And now we come to the real problem:

5. It's not fair for the individual. That's the case. Neither discrimination nor favouritism are a good way to solve the problem. It's never fair. For noone. Actually if I would hear that I would have been favoured by someone, because I'm white and male, I would be really, really offended, because I want to be judged by my skills, not by something I can't control at all.

6. People are people. People make mistakes. People love, people fear... There just can't be equity!


What do you think about it?
Maybe you have got some experiences you wanna share...^^
If you could choose, what would you take: general discrimination or quotas, and why?
Maybe you heared about alternative solutions.

Feel free to point out failures in my description above.



Thanks,

Mr. Mizzle



EDIT: The title is a fail: "once" lol. If an admin could change it into "ones", I would be happy!^^

 

[The Jester]

Sir Mizzle, first of all; thanks for inviting me to your thread. I find the subject important, especially with the recent EU-law that has been passed.
Not so long ago, I was at a political debate they held at my university, and one of those subjects was such quotas. Even our national liberal party was pro genderquotum, which I found ridiculous.

I'm against it, because:

1) The government should meddle in bussinesses as little as possible.
2) As you pointed out, it's actually a form of discrimination: I agree with that.
3) Such political actions are a bit like how we fight criminality: we mainly focus on the symptoms, instead of focusing on the roots, however -
4) I believe that in regards to gender, discrimination has decreased a lot.
5) You're right that there will always be some sort of discrimination.

Positive discrimination is discrimination.

FIGHT THE POWER PEOPLE.

 

[SandMizzle]

Sir Mizzle, first of all; thanks for inviting me to your thread. I find the subject important, especially with the recent EU-law that has been passed.
Not so long ago, I was at a political debate they held at my university, and one of those subjects was such quotas. Even our national liberal party was pro genderquotum, which I found ridiculous.

I'm against it, because:

1) The government should meddle in bussinesses as little as possible.
2) As you pointed out, it's actually a form of discrimination: I agree with that.
3) Such political actions are a bit like how we fight criminality: we mainly focus on the symptoms, instead of focusing on the roots, however -
4) I believe that in regards to gender, discrimination has decreased a lot.
5) You're right that there will always be some sort of discrimination.

Positive discrimination is discrimination.

FIGHT THE POWER PEOPLE.

Hey, thanks for the nice answer!

It's sometimes funny how the assumptions differ from the outcome if it is about such difficult questions.

1. Yes and no. I think I know what you mean, but some kind of control isn't that bad sometimes, especially if it comes to greedy open market companies.^^
3. I couldN't have said it better!
4. I can agree with that.


I totally see your point as we obviously have similar oppinions, but there are some things I'm still unsure about:

For example: Someone mentioned the case of disability to me. And there it is: Now I just have to agree that in this case it is ok. Otherwise it would be really difficult for the person to get a job. What do you think about that and for the case you agree with me, would you take it as an "outlier" or does it make you sit on the fence as I do?^^

 

[The Jester]

I totally see your point as we obviously have similar oppinions, but there are some things I'm still unsure about:

For example: Someone mentioned the case of disability to me. And there it is: Now I just have to agree that in this case it is ok. Otherwise it would be really difficult for the person to get a job. What do you think about that and for the case you agree with me, would you take it as an "outlier" or does it make you sit on the fence as I do?^^

You're right that we need some kind of control, but I don't want the government to have a tighter control than they already do.

Well, I'm not sure. Does the disability prevent the person from doing the job the same as a person without it?
I don't think that organisations should have to hire disabled people, but:

1) They should get a tax reduction if they hire them (that's what happens in Belgium);
2) HR managers should be open-minded about it.

I prefer changing the Human Resource Management-culture than enforcing laws.
Also: most disabled people don't fall off the grid in Belgium.
What kind of system do you guys in Austria have for disabled people?

 

[SandMizzle]

You're right that we need some kind of control, but I don't want the government to have a tighter control than they already do.

Well, I'm not sure. Does the disability prevent the person from doing the job the same as a person without it?
I don't think that organisations should have to hire disabled people, but:

1) They should get a tax reduction if they hire them (that's what happens in Belgium);
2) HR managers should be open-minded about it.

I prefer changing the Human Resource Management-culture than enforcing laws.
Also: most disabled people don't fall off the grid in Belgium.
What kind of system do you guys in Austria have for disabled people?

Haha, that's right. More supervision would be a problem.

I worked as a disability care worker for community service, so I got some insight. In Austria it's similar as in your country, the companies get furtherances if they hire a disabled person and there are also nice employers, mostly small company chefs, who hire at least one disabled person voluntary. But there are also some working places prepared for them. In fact, now that you say it, that just works well! But some years ago it haven't been that easy...

 

[Billy]

I voted yes on quotas simply for the fact that discrimination is VERY real, and just because I or you may not discriminate, doesn't mean other assholes in positions of power do not. The 1st groups of people integrated into a segregated organization need quotas to get the ball rolling. If people were always altruistic then we wouldn't need quotas, sadly that's not the case. And lets be real Quotas have been good at building black middle classes and getting women into traditionally non-female lines of work. Once those populations are established opportunity becomes more equal. Because the people who benefited from the quota now have the means with which to elevate their family and establish a better standard of living thus become a part of a higher class group. IME the people who complain the most vocally about quotas dont give 2 shits for equality, they just dont like that someone else is getting something for "free" that they aren't getting, which is absurd. Being a white male in the USA is a winning lottery ticket, especially if you are smart and good looking. I dont have to fight to be taken seriously. My ancestors did that for me at the end of a gun and whip. That is 1 facet of white privilege.

 

[The Jester]

But there are also some working places prepared for them.

We do too, but I think it's mainly for the mentally handicapped. I would not like those jobs though. :X

Hm, working as a disability care worker seems like an interesting job.
How come you quit? :O

I think that in the end, we'd like to see the same picture: everyone being able to perform a job that's fulfilling.
Where we differ, I think, is the amount of freedom we'd like to give up for it.
Do you agree with that? Or am I making rash assumptions?

If you're planning to ever come to Belgium, or perhaps even Germany (as I'd like to visit it soon), tell me.
I'll drop by, we'll get a few drinks together, and we'll discuss what we think should change.

(Also, German chicks are hot, so we might be able to get a few numbers.)

 

[SandMizzle]

I voted yes on quotas simply for the fact that discrimination is VERY real, and just because I or you may not discriminate, doesn't mean other assholes in positions of power do not. The 1st groups of people integrated into a segregated organization need quotas to get the ball rolling. If people were always altruistic then we wouldn't need quotas, sadly that's not the case. And lets be real Quotas have been good at building black middle classes and getting women into traditionally non-female lines of work. Once those populations are established opportunity becomes more equal. Because the people who benefited from the quota now have the means with which to elevate their family and establish a better standard of living thus become a part of a higher class group. IME the people who complain the most vocally about quotas dont give 2 shits for equality, they just dont like that someone else is getting something for "free" that they aren't getting, which is absurd. Being a white male in the USA is a winning lottery ticket, especially if you are smart and good looking. I dont have to fight to be taken seriously. My ancestors did that for me at the end of a gun and whip. That is 1 facet of white privilege.

I have to admit that I like your aspect here. I would agree in a stop-gap solution, if the problem would be handled on both sides and the quota system doesn't have to stay long. If you take racist selections in jobs interviews between black and white people, a quota system would only work in the right directions, if the young black generation gets the right education and the young white generation gets a non-racist parenting. If the quota system is the only action taken, it is useless as said. It's no long term solution and shouldn't be seen as it IMO.

We do too, but I think it's mainly for the mentally handicapped. I would not like those jobs though. :X

Hm, working as a disability care worker seems like an interesting job.
How come you quit? :O

I think that in the end, we'd like to see the same picture: everyone being able to perform a job that's fulfilling.
Where we differ, I think, is the amount of freedom we'd like to give up for it.
Do you agree with that? Or am I making rash assumptions?

If you're planning to ever come to Belgium, or perhaps even Germany (as I'd like to visit it soon), tell me.
I'll drop by, we'll get a few drinks together, and we'll discuss what we think should change.

(Also, German chicks are hot, so we might be able to get a few numbers.)

I talked to some who worked in this prepared places and they said they like it, I mean as hard as it sounds, but for them a single task is like a exacting piece of work.
Oh, it was! I was responsible for five teenagers and I had a great time. Here in Austria men at the age of 18 have to choose between a community service (ger=Zivildienst) which lasts a 3/4 year or military which lasts half a year, so I had to quit at the end of the time. It was a very nice experience!
That's true, sometimes it's just frustrating to be the idealist!^^
I think so, but I don't really understand what you mean, sorry. =P

Hehe, thanks, the same counts if you come to Austria. I rarely drink, but I would make an exception for you!^^

 

[Sriracha]

Absolutely not. For this reason -----> http://www.adversity.net/united/default.htm