Psychological manipulation/warfare used on a personal level

[Trifoilum]

Where I'm from, people would say, sometimes people need a taste of their own medecine. Maybe it they felt the hurt and pain of what they're doing, it would make them think twice. Being nice to people or ignoring them doesn't seem to work always, so if they can't handle someone confronting them with their BS, then maybe they'll experience enough shame to avoid continuing the manipulation, at least with the person who stood up to them.

Again, sometimes, people need a taste of their own medecine or else they'll think it's cute to keep on playing these games.

It's still playing the game, isn't it?

That's my only point here, really. I don't say it's bad or good per se.

no apology necessary Tri... not sure how just HOW familiar you are with the enneagram psych model... but feel free to look up what an "enneagram 8" is all about, and you'll realize why no apology is necessary

*yawns* yeah, not too unfamiliar with them.
It would have been an useless sparring, though;
actually, this would make a good question; when one party doesn't want to spar, and the other insists, what should they do?
(not to say you're insisting on debating, but)

forgive my ego-centrism, but it is I who felt provided an opportunity to show you YOUR mistake in interpreting my views! haha! yes... it's hardly the more agreeable paradigm of the 6... and it's funny, in your question itself it was quite clear you were indeed a 6. I find 6's more than any other type (in fact, it is what defines them in many ways) seem to somehow, deep down, feel "everything is relative, and it could go either way...it's such a mindfuck! aaaahhhh!!! how do i know which one to choose, or what this really means!"

Okay, so?

now please, dont' be offended -snip-

none taken, although who are we but beautified portraits of our own madness?

good to chat tho, always nice to partake in thoughtful, honest discussion on a more intimate level than usual.
ENT8

you're welcome ?

 

[ENT8]

It's still playing the game, isn't it?

That's my only point here, really. I don't say it's bad or good per se.


*yawns* yeah, not too unfamiliar with them.
It would have been an useless sparring, though;
actually, this would make a good question; when one party doesn't want to spar, and the other insists, what should they do?
(not to say you're insisting on debating, but)

nah, i'm not even remotely insisting on debating. if i were to do so, you wouldn't have to wonder

well, if one wants to, but the other doesn't... i've never thought about that! i just respond based on the energy flow and importance of the issue at hand. I guess if i had to cognatively process it... if someone wants to, and the other does not... well, gee...unless it's really something important, not just sparring for sport, but for something that is causing a psychological or emotional wedge between the two parties, i would seek to give the non-intersted party what they want, but preface that with a very clear message of "we can address this at a later date, but it needs to be addressed, and i will bring it up again"

but, just for sparrings sake? i don't even think about that, since it's such a mute point in my life. kinda like calling a friend on the phone. if they answer, they answer. if not, they don't! if i don't really need them, i don't call them 10 more times that hour.

::::shrug:::: does this help?

and yes thanks

 

[ENT8]

It's still playing the game, isn't it?

That's my only point here, really. I don't say it's bad or good per se.

i think maybe itis, maybe it isn't. the devil is in the details. I have a question for ya tho Tri...

what would you see is a response to this type of situation that would NOT be playing the game?

 

[Trifoilum]

i think maybe itis, maybe it isn't. the devil is in the details. I have a question for ya tho Tri...

what would you see is a response to this type of situation that would NOT be playing the game?

Said it on the first post;

I'll say this is part of a game where the only way to win is not to not play, but to ignore the prize / suffer the cost.

A lot of these games relies on our attachment to the prize, or our avoidance to the cost.

We might be hated. Alternatively, we might gain their affection/appreciation/admiration.
We might be able to explain our own perspective to them and reach understanding.
They might cause havoc.
If we don't do this, we are a bad, bad person. (a.k.a trapped by our own ideal)
We want to make things better.

It's not about right or wrong.
It's not about -what-, it's about -when-.

The one who reacts is already playing the game. (and just to cause even more confusion, being invulnerable / persevering / defending is -just- another way of playing)

..Just realized I have talked about it in the front

how to explain..
The moment you started considering the cost, considering the prize, is the moment you'll begin to play.
Protecting ourselves and making the situation better is also, a form of playing. A less aggressive form of playing; but playing nonetheless.
and when that happens, (when you want to reach the prize / avoid the cost of interacting with the person doing the manipulation / both) not playing is a strategy (like acd said)

the moment when the thought "I don't want to -fight-, why do you still keep doing this?" arises.
the moment when you found yourself irritated with the injustice that keeps happening,
the moment when you found that their reasoning keeps them moving on and there's really no other way.

Everything becomes a method of war,
something to alleviate the pain, something to make you/others/'the situation' (instead of The Situation) feel better.
And the other party will response in their way.

Issues are one thing. Hurt feelings are another. Injustice are also a different thing.

Of course, its inherent goodness and badness depends on people themselves;
without purpose, what is a worth of human life?
I shall have no words in judging them, therefore.
Do mind that I offer no consolation, no guidance, no warning, no rejection.
I'm not pushing towards or against playing games / not playing games.

But the feeling is like seeing someone claiming themselves a vegan while still eating fish.

On the other hand, you can say that the things I described were just another game,
and I won't disagree.

 

[ENT8]

Said it on the first post;

A lot of these games relies on our attachment to the prize, or our avoidance to the cost.

We might be hated. Alternatively, we might gain their affection/appreciation/admiration.
We might be able to explain our own perspective to them and reach understanding.
They might cause havoc.
If we don't do this, we are a bad, bad person. (a.k.a trapped by our own ideal)
We want to make things better.

It's not about right or wrong.
It's not about -what-, it's about -when-.

The one who reacts is already playing the game. (and just to cause even more confusion, being invulnerable / persevering / defending is -just- another way of playing)

..Just realized I have talked about it in the front



Of course, its inherent goodness and badness depends on people themselves;
without purpose, what is a worth of human life?
I shall have no words in judging them, therefore.
Do mind that I offer no consolation, no guidance, no warning, no rejection.
I'm not pushing towards or against playing games / not playing games.

But the feeling is like seeing someone claiming themselves a vegan while still eating fish.

On the other hand, you can say that the things I described were just another game,
and I won't disagree.

well, no, i wouldn't say they are a game necessarily, again, it depends on how it's "deployed"

if your using it to "strike back" knowing that your disinterest and silence will create more negativity within them, and also feel that such an increase of negative emotions will not specifically and directly actually work as an effective catalyst to drop the pretense on both sides and just talk... then.... YES... then it is "game playing"

but, if it is done because in your experience such a reaction will be the quickest way to actually resolve the tension and source of the problem... or at very least, neutralize it for the time being knowing it will likley "go away" for an extended period once neutralized... well, that's not game playing, IMO. that's just another way to "skin the cat" so to speak.

it's all about motivations, intentions, and the relative levels of effectiveness in resolving the situation by addressing the SOURCE of the drive for the other party to start exhibiting "manipulative behaviors"

but if your doing it for the pure sake of gaining control, or the advantage, but not for the sake of actual problem or emotional resolution...then ya, it's a game. and you be playin into it!

at least, that's how I see it. tho others will likley see it in another light.

ENT8

 

[Gaze]

It's still playing the game, isn't it?

From what I understand [MENTION=5662]ENT8[/MENTION] to mean, people need to know what they're doing to other people. And even if it is playing a game, in this case, the point is to make them aware of their manipulation, not to simply gain pleasure from teaching them a lesson, although that may be a perk. Point is, people who manipulate as a hobby or favorite pastime will continue to get away with it until they meet someone who is more manipulative and they get hurt, or until someone who no longer refuses to play along confronts them with it. So, honestly, at that point, if they've gone too far, playing their game maybe the only way they will learn. Unless someone has had to deal with people who are masters at manipulation, they won't understand how messed up it is and what it does to someone. You can't always just walk away.

 

[just me]

I like the response by @knight in battle , "try to stick to my own business". Does that really put the other person out of the picture, though? Should they stand down, are they really out of the picture? Are we not just ignoring them at that point? Do we actually forget?

It is wise, trying to understand where one might have contributed to the situation themself. Are we going to protect them or heal them by any attempt to stop their agitation or conflicting thoughts? Can we change their choices of manipulative actions? Can we change their state of mind? Maybe we should offer up a bandaid and a white flag? (pun, though thoughtful)

@Sadie stated it might provide a means of disengagement. Looking at her new avatar(I like it), I am reminded there is often more to balancing something than meets the eye. Guess it may also depend from which direction we view things.
@CindyLou opened another can of worms bring up BPD and sociopaths. People can feel wronged and go to any level to see things made right(to them). I was mainly talking about normal people, but this new can of worms is alive with thoughts to address. What is normal? Is being manipulative part of normalcy? Many questions.
@Ame mentioned interpretation. Their perception of our emotions, actions or inaction, body language, words or lack of words, and other things they may be looking at may very well take things to a different level while we might see resolution. Perception!

gotta go for now, have much more to add

 

[knight in battle]

Does that really put the other person out of the picture, though? Should they stand down, are they really out of the picture? Are we not just ignoring them at that point? Do we actually forget?

It is wise, trying to understand where one might have contributed to the situation themself. Are we going to protect them or heal them by any attempt to stop their agitation or conflicting thoughts? Can we change their choices of manipulative actions? Can we change their state of mind? Maybe we should offer up a bandaid and a white flag? (pun, though thoughtful)

I'm sure that I'm addicted to conflict and being manipulated. The more I try to protect or heal them through my default actions, the more I fail, because I don't see that my usual methods are conflict-provoking. And of course, sometimes, I just fight back -- which can actually be helpful in the end if it's a close relationship.

The most healing thing I have ever done to a conflicting person is just to place all the emphasis on calming myself down and concentrating on how I am going to continue being psychologically or mentally free from the conflict. I usual see myself seeing the other person agreeing to calm down as well. I also feel more compassion for myself and the other person once I have done this.

The best band-aid I can offer them, in most situations, is by having the peaceful mindset. It's not that I'm ignoring them. I am very much aware of the other person; that's how conflict started in the first place. But I am now agreeing to stop our interactions, so that we can both stop provoking each other.

 

[CindyLou]

It's used with a great deal of discretion, and in fact the very few times i've had to employ it... i've never got to the "end" where we part ways. because in those couple of cases, these were either close family members, or friends who were misdirecting their personal stress in a very disfuncitional manner towards me.

I use it like a mirror made of solid steel and set in granite. It's not going to give in to such dysfunctional behavior, and in fact will only reflect back to them what they put out... but, it's a shield that can't be broken or moved...not a sword. it doesn't attack. it's they that bludgeon themselves against it.

the moment that they back down, i offer a subtle gestere of consolation, and see how it is taken. if it's clear that they are no longer willling to press the issue, and accept the gesture, or at very least, don't throw it back in my face...then the level of authenticity actually usually works to foster a moment of honest realization, and can be somewhat paradigm shifting for them, as they see how something in their minds is in fact manefesting itself to hurt those they love and care about.

i'm also quick to tell them to think nothing of it, that maybe i stepped over the line, and that i can be a jerk from time to time.

this further helps them save face, and put them in a place where they have 3 realizations at one time:

1. that they have a real friend, who is willing to support them at all times, but is not willing to be walked on in any way...and usually this fosters respect. always a good thing for both parties to experience.

2. that they were in a state of negativity, and their behavior was hurting those close to them, but they can see that now, AND know that no lasting harm has been done, and they are in fact supported. they may be ashamed or embarrased for
a short while, but that's a natural and healthy response to the situation, and also a temporary one. in the end, they have always appreciated the truth and the unwavering loyalty to them in spite of their actions.

3. they are often able to then see the true source of their emotions, and deal with them directly now within themselves, which speeds up the time it will take for them to heal whatever is hurting them and move on in a more effective manner.

I tell my wife that I believe just about any type of food can be made in a way that someone will enjoy it, even if it's a food they normally would "hate" or "refuse to eat" (we cook together from time to time, and we enjoy it) when we met, she had a few things that she thought she could never like... however, by using them in some real gourmet, artisian like culinary creations, they can be transformed into something acceptable, and even enjoyable and highly complementary to a meal...and a palette!

I feel the same way about communication. you can say almost anything, to anyone, as long as your mind is clear, your ego is absent and your heart is open.

because in that state, a person can do no wrong, but only right... however, if one is so dysfunctional that they chooose to bludgeon themselves against the mirror of steel set in granite to the point where they seriously hurt themselves....

then this is a person so dysfunctional that it is best to let them sabotague it right now, rather than letting such a malevolent, myopic and emotionally dangerous person that close to me for any continued amount of time.

Mirrors, shields... not swords. it's all in how one brandishes it, and to what purpose.

Do you understand how this is very different that what you may have seen it as initially?

ENT8

How do you become a mirror or shield w/o being a sword (by accident)

 

[#@&5&49]

I've been following this thread and I really appreciate some of the points people have brought up. [MENTION=1669]Ame[/MENTION] is right, you can't always just walk away.

People behave however they behave because they have learned from their experiences that a particular behavior will result in a need or desire being met. The sooner I recognize what that is in someone the more likely I am able to avoid a situation or someone that I find offensive and assaulting. It's kind of like preventive maintenance for my well being.

First, I choose environments and people that don't assault my value system. If I encounter a person of the type being discussed I look for the path of least resistance that also respects my value system. If that isn't an option then I choose my battles very wisely.

I consider a variety of things; firstly, what is my responsibility in this and how did I come to be here. If that does not provide a way to disengage then I start considering the following; what are the options in the situation, what is my investment, what are the consequences and stakes, what do I hope to gain, what do I want, how much energy is it going to take, who and/or what am I taking on, why would I consider doing this, how much support do I have, etc., etc..

Depending on what my answers are to those questions determines my course of action. At that point there generally is a variety of choices and it's a matter of choosing one that I am currently capable of doing and/or able to live with. I don't think there is a blanket approach, each situation/person has to be evaluated for what it is. Additionally, the course of action I choose can change. How I respond or react isn't set in stone. It's a fluid experience.

 

[ENT8]

How do you become a mirror or shield w/o being a sword (by accident)

pretty easy actually. you speak only to how their actions make you feel... but you don't let your ego seek to protect those feelings.

and then you simply ask them questions, such as did they know what they were doing was actually making you want to cry?

or, why would they say something in that tone of voice... and were they aware that it sets you on edge every time?

etc... etc...

again.. it's really just about being absolutly 100% honest in every stage of the discussion.

whenever i've had to engage someone like this... I picture interaction being like that of a young kid.

I don't try to block out or shield myself from the way their actions are making me feel. I actuallly try to let my guard down completely.... and then once i get "hurt" by their manipulations...etc... I let them know "you are hurting me" and then "why are you hurting me?" and lastly "do you want to continue to hurt me? and if so... why?"

you see... honestly. really really naked honesty. I tell them only how I feel. not what I want, or not what they are doing wrong, and i don't give direction. I ask questions.

tell feelings, ask questions. that is all.

and of course, it takes a good deal of discretion as I said before. obviously one needs to know when to shift gears, or if the other party is "bulldozing" your interaction, it is very helpful to recognize that immediatly, and point out that they need to give you your turn to respond...etc.

but, basically, it's staying above the belt, telling your feelings, and asking questions.

we as humans are so conditioned to expect "attacks" to come in the form of statements, and from entities outside of ourselves.

we are much less prepared to defend against attacks that we "discover" as we answer a question that has been posed to us... and it's all the more efffective when we realize the "attack" actually originated from within ourselves!

it's really about provided the other party a mirror in which they can see their actions for what the world sees them as. not as they want them to be seen. telling feelings/asking questions is the best way to do this, IMO

-E

 

[#@&5&49]

[MENTION=5662]ENT8[/MENTION]

That is a very good strategy.

Edit: I can see using this strategy with children in the context of teaching appropriate behavior. I think it can be a very useful teaching aid when working with kids.

 

[ENT8]

[MENTION=5662]ENT8[/MENTION]

That is a very good strategy.

THanks, glad you appreciate it. It took me a good 1/3 of my life to finally figure it out as a good way to get ACTUAL resolution to subtle manipulations and indirect aggressions. In my younger days, I would tell them to fuck off, or it would disintegrate into an arguement that I would win usually (because I don't back down often), yet come away feeling empty handed, and in a couple of cases... we just came to blows (I am an enneagram 8, after all).

It was only when I realized that although my responses were logical and well constructed counter points to their BS... they were not initially prompted for a logical reason...but in fact an EMOTIONAL reason (someone was being emotionally underhanded or whatever towards me)

The rest was an evolutionary process of discovering how to best respond in a way that I could feel some real sense of resolution after whatever "disagreement" we were having on account of them being emotionally manipulative.

Mind you, I used this only when dealing with actual friends, or family... you know, people that essentially want a good relationship with me. If someone was dealing with a true sociopath of some sort, be them a sadist, a narcissist, pathological liar, or whatever form of sociopathy they have, I don't know how well this alone would hold up... HOWEVER, I believe it would still be very effective if one used it in conjection with a very clear sense of "personal, relational, and ethical boundaries"

I can imagine it getting to the point where they would first attack... then reassert the attack, then try to undermine my communication approach by denigrating it in some way (oh, so now your mr. i can't handle my own feelings so i must burden someone else with them is that it?!)... then finally concede in some token gesture, but very soon after reassert an attack most likely using a different approach (ok, i'm sorry baby, but here is a brand new evening gown like you've always wanted. now why don't you get to the gym so you can remove some of that gross fat on your ass otherwise you will never be good enough for the dress you've always wanted...etc) you know...somethign like this. This would be met again with the same "tell feeling, ask questions" response. At this point, i can imagine them feeling really threatened and most likley would fire back that this type of behavior is hurting them, and its cruel, or whatever... etc. Or they would just push harder as they say your a fat ass....etc, and so on.

Now, this is where the whole "good sense of boundaries" comes in. it would be necessary at that point to say something like:

"I'm sorry you feel this way and that you see what I am doing here as something that hurts you. I feel the same way about what you do. Since this is the case, that we both hurt each other... and I know that I am hurt many times in what should be just casual conversation, I believe we are not going to be able to have any sort of relationship together. You and I are clearly two completely different people, who in spite of our best efforts to communicate with one another, one or the other always ends up feeling hurt. You wouldn't want to cook on a hot stove that suddenly shot fire at you every couple of evenings at random, and neither would I. even if it's just in our heads, fine, it doesn't change the fact that this is how we feel. it may be completely irrational... and in that case all the more reason for us to part ways, as i'm sure neither I nor you want to be with someone so irrational. Even even if you insist you want to help me, and I want to help you, it is very clear that neither of us can... since we can't even communicate to each other without hurting one another, there is no reason to believe any plan of "help" that we try to provide one another with will do anything other than hurt without meaning to. So, since we can't even communicate together in a healthy manner, nor can we provide any guidance or suggestion that also doesn't hurt in some way, then its time we go our seperate ways. goodbye"

don't try to fight emotional weapons with "point, counter point" arguments. that type of "logic and rationality" is in fact not being employed by the other party, therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE to use this to fight back with. Since they use emotional weapons, one must use those same emotions as a shield.

But, in extreme cases, it will all fail unless it is delivered with a crystal clear, and absolutely unyielding sense of personal, relational, and ethical boundaries. In fact, this is where the TRUE power of "manipulative people" comes from. They are able to find a chink in another persons personal, relational, or ethical boundaries, and they find a way to exploit it.

That's what it is, really. they are such a person to identify exactly what area your boundaries might be weakest at, and then they relentlessly assault this area until they break though, and take over. Think about this... it's incredibly cowardly (picking on the "weakest link"), unbelieveably selfish and immoral, and it's CALCULATED. they had to figure it out how to do it to you, either via observation, or trial and error, or whatever. but they planned it. It is not a mistake, nor did it arise due to "circumstances"... but it's something those types of "people" have deliberately or subconciously tried to engineer in order to make you a tool to service their desires. You know... we used to use a different word for another person that is used as a tool to service someones desires: SLAVE.

a CONSCIOUS, CLEAR understand of your own boundaries, total honesty devoid of ego defending responses, and the ability to listen to your emotions, and communicate on that same plane - emotions, not logic.

If someone has developed those three "attributes", then they will be able to prevent the good relationships in their lives from acting dysfunctionally towards them, as well as be able to identify quickly and truthfully those people who are not willing or able to have a "good relationship" with you so you can move on as soon as this determination is made.

I like to think of it as a very elegant tool. one that exposes the truth from behind the shadow, and in doing so will clearly show both parties involved what is happening, how it is damaging, who is responsible, and how it can be fixed. If it's a genuinely good relationship with a person who is relatively functional, they will see the light for themselves in this process, and actually FIX it themselves for the sake of their relationship with you. (not say "I tried!!" but ACTUALLY stop doing it).
If it's not a good relationship be they sociopathic or just dysfunctional to a degree that is inescapably damaging to those around them, then you will see very quickly that they either can't see the problem, or can't fix the problem.

in either case, the way to "fix it" is to not associate with them. It's pretty simple really. I don't want swim around in toxic waste because I don't want to get physically injured or sick.... and i don't associate with deeply dysfunctional or sociopathic manipulative people because I don't want to get emotionally sick or injured.

And if you find yourself wanting "fix them" or thinking you should "help them" in spite of what has come to light, then you clearly lack the boundaries neccessary to see the distinction for what it is. This strategy won't work for those people. But that's a completely different topic

hope this helps. By the way, if anyone would be willing to share a personal situation that they recently encountered that they think this approach may actually NOT work for... i would be more than willing to "roleplay" it out here. Mostly because I believe it will ALWAYS work, in EVERY situation as a response to prevent manipulation or maniplators from gaining influence over us... but I've only used it in very limited situations. I would like to test it more under a "heavier load" if possible. my reasons are simple - I want to know just how good this really is, and if it has any weaknesses that i haven't thought of

just for anyone who's intersted. besides, it might help that person gain a better understanding of their own situation as well, and how to better deal with it.

-E

 

[just me]

How about people that are raised spoiled? Is it possible to, as a child, imprint the fact one gets what one wants with whatever means necessary?

Is it possible to manipulate another person without doing so purposefully? It wouldn't be called manipulation then, would it?

Some preachers talk people out of their money. They ask to give more for missions, more for this, more for that, and the ten percent becomes 25%. People will go around eating toast for breakfast while the preacher eats a full breakfast. Saw a preacher order first and he got the big breakfast with all the trimmings. Next member ordered a bowl of grits. Next member a bowl of oatmeal. Next, two biscuits. The preacher offered some of his food and said he was given too much, but it was only a gesture. They get their "vision" while others get the shaft. Of course, most of them do not mind and give freely. Wait: is this on a personal level?

I have found not every person to show signs of a conscious.

 

[#@&5&49]

How about people that are raised spoiled? Is it possible to, as a child, imprint the fact one gets what one wants with whatever means necessary? Is it possible to manipulate another person without doing so purposefully? It wouldn't be called manipulation then, would it?

This is strictly my perspective and I am certainly open to other perspectives on this. A child will manipulate you so they can eat candy every night for dinner. A teenager will manipulate you so they don't have to take out the garbage. Is it conscious manipulation - yes, because they don't know any better, but also no, because it's our job to teach them to be responsible for their actions and how to ask for what they need and want.

In the case of adults, I would have to say yes it is possible for an adult to manipulate another adult without being conscious of it. BUT, as adults the fact that we are not, or choose not to be conscious of our actions does not remove our responsibility for our actions. There are so many kinds of manipulation. Each has to be evaluated for the unique experience that it is.

Realistically can we be conscious of all of our actions every second of every day - probably not. Denial and being conscious of our actions vary in degree. In other words, it isn't black and white, there are literally a hundred different shades of gray.

[MENTION=680]just me[/MENTION], not every storm is the same, some are small, some will sink your boat. All winds are different. You prepare accordingly for each. Manipulation in people is the same. Some are gale force, others are nor'easters, some just a strong 15 knot breeze, etc., etc... Prepare accordingly, the same way you prepare your boat for a coming storm; listen to the weather channel, look at the seas, read the clouds, follow your instincts, protect your boat and crew.

 

[ENT8]

How about people that are raised spoiled? Is it possible to, as a child, imprint the fact one gets what one wants with whatever means necessary?

Is it possible to manipulate another person without doing so purposefully? It wouldn't be called manipulation then, would it?

Some preachers talk people out of their money. They ask to give more for missions, more for this, more for that, and the ten percent becomes 25%. People will go around eating toast for breakfast while the preacher eats a full breakfast. Saw a preacher order first and he got the big breakfast with all the trimmings. Next member ordered a bowl of grits. Next member a bowl of oatmeal. Next, two biscuits. The preacher offered some of his food and said he was given too much, but it was only a gesture. They get their "vision" while others get the shaft. Of course, most of them do not mind and give freely. Wait: is this on a personal level?

I have found not every person to show signs of a conscious.

Well... not 100% sure if your bringing this up in response to my post, but I think you are, so I'm gonna try to give you my best answer.

As you already mentioned, most of them do not mind and give freely. I'm talking about the type of manipulation where it is causing a person mental/emotional stress or harm. This is a bit different, since it doesn't seem to be doing that much for the people involved. If it IS doing that, but that seem to be unaware of it... well, they would first need to become aware of it. Otherwise, there is nothing more someone can do.

Also, I'm not sure that the above example you gave is "manipulation" at all. It could be the result of manipulation, sure... but there could be a whole lot of reasons that what you describe would be something else. Now I know your not giving a lengthy background on this for obvious reasons (who wants to post up a 5 page essay?) Also, I don't think it's reasonable to assume all situations where one party has more "means" than another party is the result of "manipulation"... even when the person with means has gained such means from becoming a popular speaker on topics of charity, generosity, equality, etc. Even if it is manipulation, it doesn't necessarily fit the paradigm of what I was referring to. In that way, you do bring a point that what I was mentioning would not work against this type of manipulation, but it's.... ehhh.... well, it feels like... something else. Ahh! that's it. Taking advantage. Just because a person is taking advantage of another person, doesn't mean the the "victim" was "manipulated" into it. THere are many many ways to take advantage of someone, and manipulation is just one of them, a "subset" if you will.

Yea....that feels more correct.

Oh, and on to your first point, about being possible to raise a child that believes they get whatever they want by any means necessary.... YES! it is TOTALLY possible! At least that the leading hypothesis of clinical psychiatrists with regards to what type of childhood environment a person can grow up in that would foster them to develop "narcissistic personality disorder" - a clinical dysfunction that can appear in the more extreme cases to be accompanied with full blown sociopathic tendencies.

I've personally met one person with this disorder. Crazy kid! Knew him from high school. We were "friends" for a couple months, until he broke my computer and blamed it on the computer (smashed screen on the laptop). He never apologized, and never took responsibility. I told him that was a totally dick thing, and not to ever expect me to give him another opportunity to do it again. He kinda laughed, and said I was an idiot and that it was my fault for having such a "cheap low quality computer" I just told him if he comes around my stuff again and it breaks, I'd just kick his ass. I don't remember what his response was, as I was already walking away at this point. We never hung out again.

Those types can actually become psychotically dangerous, and once they are seen for what they are, should be treated much the same way as you would treat a paranoid schitzophrenic, or a psychopatic killer - as a person who is severely mentally ill, who is capable of any violation against you if they feel properly motivated, and who should be avoided at all times or otherwise restricted from interacting with society due to the dangerous nature of their disorder.

Of course, most people raised spoiled don't develop full blown sociopathic disorders. But, the "right person" in the "right situation" like raising them spoiled rotten and telling them their the best thing in the world..ya, they can develop this way.

going back to the "strategy" I posted above... yea, I think it would work against these types too (pending you and they are not forced to be together, like as a step father to a teen who your wife has done a bad job raising spoiled, etc)... but if you were to meet this type, youcould deploy such a strategy when you were felt hurt by manipulation.... and as you did so, you would realize they were not able to empathize with your pain. It would be strikingly obvious over a short time. Then, you would know to no longer associate with them. pretty simple actually.

as for unconscious of what your doing? ya, it's still TOTALLY manipulation! in fact, most of the time it is done this way, by most people as an unhealthy response to some form of stimulus or "stress". They are still trying to do it, and would stillhave to know you well enough to know what is likely to work to their favor (the "chink" in the armor of your boundaries). It would all be subconscious, sure.... but it's absolutely manipulation. In fact, the few times I've deployed such strategy against the few friends/family members that I mentioned... it was in just this type of situation. They were not in a good place in their lives, and they were acting manipulative as part of a dysfunctional response to something upsetting or stressful in their lives.

As I told feelings/asked questions... they realized what they were doing, and why. and it was made all better right away for me an them They still had whatever was "eating them", but they had more clarity on how it was affecting them in other ways, and were going to be more vigilant against that type of thing in the future.

totally doing it without realizing it, and still totally manipulation. THere are no passes in life for ignorance of damages done to others! Ya know, "ignorance of the law is not valid reason or explanation for violation of the law" ... same thing

-E

 

[ENT8]

I've been following this thread and I really appreciate some of the points people have brought up. [MENTION=1669]Ame[/MENTION] is right, you can't always just walk away.

People behave however they behave because they have learned from their experiences that a particular behavior will result in a need or desire being met. The sooner I recognize what that is in someone the more likely I am able to avoid a situation or someone that I find offensive and assaulting. It's kind of like preventive maintenance for my well being.

First, I choose environments and people that don't assault my value system. If I encounter a person of the type being discussed I look for the path of least resistance that also respects my value system. If that isn't an option then I choose my battles very wisely.

I consider a variety of things; firstly, what is my responsibility in this and how did I come to be here. If that does not provide a way to disengage then I start considering the following; what are the options in the situation, what is my investment, what are the consequences and stakes, what do I hope to gain, what do I want, how much energy is it going to take, who and/or what am I taking on, why would I consider doing this, how much support do I have, etc., etc..

Depending on what my answers are to those questions determines my course of action. At that point there generally is a variety of choices and it's a matter of choosing one that I am currently capable of doing and/or able to live with. I don't think there is a blanket approach, each situation/person has to be evaluated for what it is. Additionally, the course of action I choose can change. How I respond or react isn't set in stone. It's a fluid experience.

Ah, if I could "like" this post twice... I would. Each person and situation is different but there are some universals... as you have pointed out, your "value system" ie: personal, relational, and ethical boundaries. This is really a prerequisite to have a solid grasp on if one is gong to be able to properly deal with manipulation without being first victimized. Ya gotta know what you will and wont stand for, what you will and won't do... otherwise, you risk being pushed into something that isn't right for you.

Once a person has a clear understanding of this... (which alone takes a level of maturity and development to ascertain) then one usually has the appropriate level of maturity and development to choose how to best handle the situation in a way that won't make it worse, but also in a way that completely neutralizes the "attack"

-E

 

[just me]

[MENTION=5662]ENT8[/MENTION], "You can't fix stupid" is a saying going around. Can't say I like it or agree with it, but it is out there showing a certain mindset. Don't even like the word, but it exists. Some type people will try to help those, while others make fun of them. Yet others shun them. I see the areas of grey all over the board regarding not only this, but regarding most anything.

Taking advantage is manipulation of sorts. For example, it could be viewed as taking advantage of a situation affecting many people. While doing so, those people are being manipulated. I speak of groups, but what is the difference? Thought it to be a great example how a mirror would not help. Some folk are "on a mission" to get others to follow their "vision". They go as far as telling people that do not follow their vision, "You get the vision or you get division." In this scenario, people who are not going along with another's goals are asked to step aside. "Either you are for me or you are against me."

Who are they to speak as such? Who are they to set such rules? Have they gotten to where they want to be and no longer need the others? Have they crossed the line in the sand?

I recall manipulation is usually selfish or to get what one wants. Sure, it can be used to get something for others; still what someone wants to do. I don't get the vision so I do not fit in and therefore feel even more distant when told to distance myself. It is all alright by me, though, because I know what is best for myself.

Showing someone without a conscious what they are doing has, I have found, done nothing but cause more friction.
Some folk actually practice in front of mirrors. Some like mirrors.

Regarding the paranoid schitzophrenic: know of a guy that had this badly and was on drugs for it. His doctor thought he had it. Sad thing is they can now tell with a cancer machine called a PET that shows the disorder. It is something in the brain that can now actually be seen. He caused a lot of problems when not on his meds. They changed his meds and found something that actually worked. He said goodbye to his Mother and shot himself fatally in her backyard. The demons had finally stopped bothering him and he wanted to go while he was at peace. So sad. He used to paint pictures of the demons that were after him. He was no danger except when not taking his meds. Ended up more a danger to himself. His "mental disorder" was something in his brain that was visibly different than most.

 

[just me]

This is strictly my perspective and I am certainly open to other perspectives on this. A child will manipulate you so they can eat candy every night for dinner. A teenager will manipulate you so they don't have to take out the garbage. Is it conscious manipulation - yes, because they don't know any better, but also no, because it's our job to teach them to be responsible for their actions and how to ask for what they need and want.

In the case of adults, I would have to say yes it is possible for an adult to manipulate another adult without being conscious of it. BUT, as adults the fact that we are not, or choose not to be conscious of our actions does not remove our responsibility for our actions. There are so many kinds of manipulation. Each has to be evaluated for the unique experience that it is.

Realistically can we be conscious of all of our actions every second of every day - probably not. Denial and being conscious of our actions vary in degree. In other words, it isn't black and white, there are literally a hundred different shades of gray.

@just me , not every storm is the same, some are small, some will sink your boat. All winds are different. You prepare accordingly for each. Manipulation in people is the same. Some are gale force, others are nor'easters, some just a strong 15 knot breeze, etc., etc... Prepare accordingly, the same way you prepare your boat for a coming storm; listen to the weather channel, look at the seas, read the clouds, follow your instincts, protect your boat and crew.

So true, [MENTION=5224]Sadie[/MENTION]: batten the hatches. Let's ride this storm out.

 

[#@&5&49]

[MENTION=680]just me[/MENTION], Don't forget your foul weather gear and EPIRB! The seas can be unpredictable. A good captain is prepared. An experienced captain knows exactly what to do, but then, you already know all of that. Ahhhh, so many analogies. Too much fun :becky: