Positive Depictions of Conservatism | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Positive Depictions of Conservatism

Discussion in 'News and Politics' started by Hostarius, Dec 11, 2020.

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  1. Roses In The Vineyard

    Roses In The Vineyard Permanent Fixture

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    The further off from center both sides gets the worse it all becomes and the less in touch reality they both become where ultimately they create hell for everyone else to experience as the case has been throughout the last century killing 150+ million people. As for conservatives they are slow even glacial and reactionary especially towards societal issues until it is ready to burn down while the other side sure does love totalitarianism as if it were the new religion of the ages.
     
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  2. Roses In The Vineyard

    Roses In The Vineyard Permanent Fixture

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    A large part it comes down to being heavily indoctrinated from an early age onward as it is not normal for whole generations to be like this where it is all one way or the highway on political and ideological grounds as such usually don't end well. In short it looks like we'll be repeating history again and I doubt this civilization will survive another round.
     
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  3. OP
    Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    Oh dear...

    You say that 'Tradition and heritage is NOT conservatism. Conservatism is adherence to traditional values and ideas and opposition to change.', and I can't for the life of me figure out why this isn't a direct contradiction.

    Your other point is simply a strawman: 'I'm not sure what kind of power structure needs no modifications or improvement as time goes by.'. I've nowhere said that there isn't virtue in progressivism, in fact it's vital - just as vital as the 'ordinary conservatism' everyone operates with on a day-to-day basis. In fact, I am a progressive, lol.

    What are you arguing against, exactly?
     
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    #43 Hostarius, Dec 14, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
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  4. niar

    niar Regular Poster

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    Tradition and heritage refer to culture vs traditional values, as in political systems, dogma, ect.

    Perhaps I jumped the gun. I'm still waiting to hear of these set of rules that provide stability and cannot change: You said that 'Stability' or 'status quo' is often like good parenting - we establish a set of rules by which the child then learns to navigate the world, and changing these rules overmuch is a form of abuse; it becomes an arbitrary use of power.". I don't know how progressivism -which, mind you, is an entirely political concept- isn't directly opposite to your depiction of conservatism.
     
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    Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    OK, suppose that I give you some parameters and rules to a challenge that I set you: I say, 'if you complete X task, I will reward you with Y reward'. We agree, maybe something is signed.

    So you labour assiduously, let's say for two or three years. You solve all the problems, you devote yourself to it... you complete the task.

    And then you come to me, expecting the Y reward that was promised, that we agreed to, and I turn to you and say, 'oh, but I changed my mind. Sorry'.

    You'd feel more than a little betrayed.


    What I'm saying is that people need some measure of 'stability' or 'status quo' - in other words, conservatism - in order to make informed rational choices about their lives, and navigate their way in the world around them. On the social scale, this means that governments have a moral duty to ensure the continuity of essentially 'everything that was promised'.

    A real-world example of this is my best friend from high school, who embarked upon a degree in games design at a time when the industry in the UK was growing massively and benefitted from generous government tax breaks. Then, the same year as his graduation, the coalition government came to power, scrapped the tax breaks, and the industry started to contract, closing its doors on new entrants. He did everything right, he played by the rules, and yet the rug was pulled out from under him through no fault of his own.

    It is simply foolish to deride 'conservatism' as something essentially 'bad' or otherwise corrosive to our societies when it represents nothing more than a fairly prosaic and absolutely necessary functional approach to government. It's a useful tool as much as progressivism is.


    Kant has an ethical principle that, since human beings are ends in themselves, it is morally right to give them as much true information as they need in order to make complete, rational, informed decisions about their lives. It's a rule I live by.

    If you enter into a relationship looking to find a spouse, only to learn months later that they're already married, then they've obviously failed in this ethical principle, just as does the parent who imposes ever-changing rules upon their child.

    Conservatism is like this - it's an instinct which services this principle and, what is more, everybody has it to varying degrees, and everybody needs it. I think this is what makes Scruton's analysis so potent, because (like Burke), he seems to uncover what the basal motivations of conservatism are, untethered from the ideological accretions of the modern age. Personally I don't see what free market economics has to do with 'conservatism', for example, and in fact it doesn't take a long look back in history to find a time when the associations were reversed. The same is true of a multitude of other policy positions and opinions, and this is why we're talking about fundamentals, because to me, most of what is discussed now under these labels are free-floating positions which have switched hands many times before such that the associations are clearly meaningless and/or malleable.
     
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  6. philostam

    philostam Permanent Fixture

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    Yup, well said.

    Outsiders tend to value progressivism, while insiders are conservative. Bitcoiners today could be called progressive, but if Bitcoin actually became a global reserve currency someday, they would turn into conservatives over night.

    Basically, the better you have it in the present, the less you want world to change. I really think this is completely natural, but of course also futile. I am currently in such state in my life where I finally figured things out - so it would be a bit of a nuisance if there was a massive revolution and I'd have to rethink everything again, lol.

    This is the same as with inflation. Savers are afraid of inflation, because it would wipe out their sacrifice over the years. Debtors would welcome it, because it would reduce their debt.
     
    #46 philostam, Dec 14, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
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    Hostarius

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    Yeah, I agree, Phil - there tends to be natural constituencies for these approaches.

    LOL.

    If the revolution comes, it needs to do so after I've got this doctorate. If it could wait until after I'm married, too, that'd be great.
     
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  8. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    So you are saying stability and basically keeping your word is an example of conservatism? See this thread just doesn't make sense to me because it seems you are trying to bridge an ideological gap without allowing debate on political ideology. It just does not compute. Or I don't see the point. Acknowledging that keeping your word and maintaining stability isn't going to bridge any political gaps in the US because conservatives in the US have no interest in those things right now. Conservatism has been hijacked by the far right to the point where they, by and large, want to overthrow the results of an election and one state AG is talking secession because their guy lost the election. Try telling these folks they aren't real conservatives though. I think @niar has a point in mentioning that conservatives in the US at least have been very good at branding themselves. They brand themselves ultra patriotic while pumping out pretty effective propaganda because they peddle in fear. It keeps them in power.

    Maybe it's just your phrasing that is a stumbling block. Because I do agree that finding common ground is important. At least in my experience living in the US, it just misses the mark. Pretty much the only thing people willing to compromise here can agree on is that our election was fair and there should be a peaceful transition of power in January. However even when that does happen we will still have highly partisan media and pundits continuing to radicalize people even further. Agreeing that we like celebrating holidays and keeping traditions and basically having a culture isn't going to be enough to remedy that. There's something very deeply broken in the US and I think it would take policy change to even begin to repair it. Last year Rep. Tulsi Gabbard introduced legislation to restore the Fairness Doctrine which would require media outlets to give equal time to conflicting views. That means Fox News and OANN and CNN and MSNBC wouldn't be able to hammer on the other side. They would have to offer discussion with the other side. The criticism there is that it interferes with the first amendment by forcing media outlets to discuss issues of public importance in a way that they do not prefer. It's forcing them to acknowledge the other side. But it's not profitable for them to do that because they thrive on the tribalism.
     
    #48 acd, Dec 14, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
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  9. OP
    Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    I want to reply to you fully when I've got the energy, acd, because this is worth going into, but I just want to say that you seem to be agreeing with the diagnosis - that it's our (or rather, American) civic values that need repairing, and in a practical sense that might mean more neutral or balanced journalism, among other things (but it amounts to the same). The 'town square' needs to actually be public again, and not just taped off into different proprietary corners.

    There's a charge from public philosophers like Michael Sandel (who also happens to be a fantastic pedagogue, if you ever stumble across a lecture of his) to address the civic values issue, but there's an overwhelming amount of pessimism, mistrust, and hurt.

    If and when the Reps cast out Trump, its going to take an awful lot of courage and good faith adherence to those same civic virtues to rebuild what has been eroded. And it doesn't have to happen completely, just enough. You can still be barmy, divided Yanks if you like, just not to this extent, lol.
     
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  10. philostam

    philostam Permanent Fixture

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    The thread is not "Positive Depictions of Conservative party in the US".

    I think you're just thinking about it too literally. I find this thread to be more philosophical than political, but unfortunately it has been somewhat derailed.
     
  11. OP
    Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    Yeah.

    It was a bit like how you get two toddlers to make up after a fight.

    'OK now say something nice...'

    Because everybody loves a patronising and superior Brit.


    Seriously, though, I don't mind if the real issues need to come into it, or the purpose changes. It's not a problem that needs a rigid diagnosis and cure.
     
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  12. acd

    acd Well-known member

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    Then why bother mentioning the "rabid divisive times?" I'm interested in talking about solving problems. But I won't bother here then.

    I should also acknowledge that yes. I'm only thinking about this from what my experience is.
     
    #52 acd, Dec 14, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
  13. OP
    Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    Hey! You're staying.
     
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  14. philostam

    philostam Permanent Fixture

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    Yeah. I mean if I was in US, I would would Democrats without exception. But internally and philosophically I feel more and more conservative. So I understand this thread from this perspective.
     
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  15. OP
    Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    @acd You're the most interesting thing about this thread, lol.
     
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  16. Wyote

    Wyote ┄⍹┄
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    tfw you try to engage with people who can't hold multiple thoughts at once, about holding multiple thoughts at once :md:
     
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    Hostarius

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    We're holding multiple thoughts at once here, it's not going to make much sense, lol.
     
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  18. Wyote

    Wyote ┄⍹┄
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    Can you elaborate on this some more? I'm interested.
     
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    Hostarius

    Hostarius Dad Bodinem

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    Yeah. It just regards the translation of polis (city); that when the Greeks talk about 'politics' (or rather, when what they're talking about is translated as 'politics'), they're invoking an etymological link to the 'city', to duty, especially Athenians.

    'politics' (polis - City) and 'civics' (civitas - City) are essentially equivalent terms, just that one is derived from Greek, the other Latin.

    It's just that in English, when we hear that Aristotle said that 'man is a political animal', we read it as meaning something more sinister than it actually is. In truth, it connotes much more about duty, civic virtue and cooperative governance.

    I may be wrong, however - I'm no classicist.
     
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  20. Wyote

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    I meant more regarding your personal views on the importance of this. But it is good to point out that it is not a sinister implication.
     
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