Perceiving versus Judging

[David Nelson]

No, not a competition. When we think about perceiving functions, we tend to think about real time interaction (Se) or data retrieval (Si). Or a simple data input. But perceiving functions do encompass subsequent analysis (Ni and Ne), in a similar fashion to judging, T and F functions. Hence inituitives are more ‘in their heads’ than Sensors. The more static Sensing functions put more emphasis on the judging functions because they cannot do much with the data they have. I noticed this when discussing things with an ISTJ friend. They had no conception of how they could predict future events, other than by using past data or experiences. Anything else to them might as well be witchcraft. They resist theory or analysis.

I think this causes some confusion and is worth giving some consideration. Intuitives have a more dynamic interplay between information and logic/feeling.

 

[Matty]

No, not a competition. When we think about perceiving functions, we tend to think about real time interaction (Se) or data retrieval (Si). Or a simple data input. But perceiving functions do encompass subsequent analysis (Ni and Ne), in a similar fashion to judging, T and F functions. Hence inituitives are more ‘in their heads’ than Sensors. The more static Sensing functions put more emphasis on the judging functions because they cannot do much with the data they have. I noticed this when discussing things with an ISTJ friend. They had no conception of how they could predict future events, other than by using past data or experiences. Anything else to them might as well be witchcraft. They resist theory or analysis.

I think this causes some confusion and is worth giving some consideration. Intuitives have a more dynamic interplay between information and logic/feeling.

In terms of dominant cognitive functions, judgers extrovert either thinking or feeling, whereas perceivers will extrovert either intuition or sensing.

Extroverted thinking imposes functionality, order, and efficiency on the environment.
Extroverted feeling imposes values, customs, manners, and social standards on the environment.
Extroverted intuition imposes possibility, access, avenues for exploration, and indeterminacy on the environment.
Extroverted sensing imposes aesthetics, stimulation, provocation, and titillation on the environment.

Judgers can come across as stabilisers, or killjoys. They make their environment productive, structured, or safe.

Perceivers can come across as destabilisers, or entertainers. They make their environment accessible, interesting, or entertaining.

In terms of perception, and future insight, dominant introverted sensors are focused on bodily mastery and skills (eg martial arts, trades, athletic ability, etc), and they primarily experience their own coordination. Introverted intuitives primarily experience their thoughts about possibilities past and future (eg examining causality, contingency, probability, etc), and they primarily experience their insights.

 

[John K]

No, not a competition. When we think about perceiving functions, we tend to think about real time interaction (Se) or data retrieval (Si). Or a simple data input. But perceiving functions do encompass subsequent analysis (Ni and Ne), in a similar fashion to judging, T and F functions. Hence inituitives are more ‘in their heads’ than Sensors. The more static Sensing functions put more emphasis on the judging functions because they cannot do much with the data they have. I noticed this when discussing things with an ISTJ friend. They had no conception of how they could predict future events, other than by using past data or experiences. Anything else to them might as well be witchcraft. They resist theory or analysis.

I think this causes some confusion and is worth giving some consideration. Intuitives have a more dynamic interplay between information and logic/feeling.

I think that Sensor's interplay between information and judgement is different to ours rather than less dynamic - from some perspectives, theirs is a lot more dynamic and from others it is less so. You can see this most clearly in consumate physical skills expressed in the moment - watch a great tennis player perceiving and judging with great fluency and with split second timing. I was absolutely fascinated by the guys who did all the practical work during my time in the Antarctic - they seemed to think with their hands in the immediate moment and out there in the world, while I'm away with the penguins in the wood between the worlds

 

[David Nelson]

I think that Sensor's interplay between information and judgement is different to ours rather than less dynamic - from some perspectives, theirs is a lot more dynamic and from others it is less so. You can see this most clearly in consumate physical skills expressed in the moment - watch a great tennis player perceiving and judging with great fluency and with split second timing. I was absolutely fascinated by the guys who did all the practical work during my time in the Antarctic - they seemed to think with their hands in the immediate moment and out there in the world, while I'm away with the penguins in the wood between the worlds

Yes Se dominant perceiving is a great skill but it plays little role in cognition once the physical activity stops. It’s dynamic in the moment only.

 

[David Nelson]

In terms of dominant cognitive functions, judgers extrovert either thinking or feeling, whereas perceivers will extrovert either intuition or sensing.

Extroverted thinking imposes functionality, order, and efficiency on the environment.
Extroverted feeling imposes values, customs, manners, and social standards on the environment.
Extroverted intuition imposes possibility, access, avenues for exploration, and indeterminacy on the environment.
Extroverted sensing imposes aesthetics, stimulation, provocation, and titillation on the environment.

Judgers can come across as stabilisers, or killjoys. They make their environment productive, structured, or safe.

Perceivers can come across as destabilisers, or entertainers. They make their environment accessible, interesting, or entertaining.

In terms of perception, and future insight, dominant introverted sensors are focused on bodily mastery and skills (eg martial arts, trades, athletic ability, etc), and they primarily experience their own coordination. Introverted intuitives primarily experience their thoughts about possibilities past and future (eg examining causality, contingency, probability, etc), and they primarily experience their insights.

Don’t you mean Se doms are all about the physical like martial arts. Si doms don’t tend to be all that physical in my experience.

 

[John K]

Yes Se dominant perceiving is a great skill but it plays little role in cognition once the physical activity stops. It’s dynamic in the moment only.

I think you are right there, though I think competent extraverted sensors have a very tight interaction between their Se and their Ti or Fi that becomes virtually seamless. The equivalent for us is the way Se feeds our own perception because of course we'd have no conscious contact at all with the outer world unless we used it. For us though Se -> Ni not Fi or Ti, and so the Intuitive game begins LOL. We Ni types have got a lot more processing to do than other types, as Ren pointed out in his book, and that means we have to do more thinking to make sense of things. It means we dive a lot deeper than many other types, but we lose a direct experience of the outer world as a consequence. The interaction between the functions we use is more disjoint than theirs and so we spend more time ruminating in our inner world, and create other worlds in the process - a matter of sheer horror to them I expect .

 

[John K]

Si doms don’t tend to be all that physical in my experience.

Agree with that David. Locked-in Si-ndrome comes to mind ......
No! That's a caricature of course, but they have very little concept of alternate realities and have to think pretty hard before they'll accept a change to their constitution, which needs a 2/3 majority. I think they are great at keeping to a plan and spotting flaws in things. I certainly want one when I need a solicitor for a house sale, or the like.

 

[aeon]

Yes Se dominant perceiving is a great skill but it plays little role in cognition once the physical activity stops. It’s dynamic in the moment only.

I’m saying this to be funny, but I’m also serious in saying it...

Go make love with a Se-dom, and then get back to me with your thoughts (and as a Ni-dom, you’ll have so very many!) about the nature and value of Se in concert with other functions.

Given that you’ve got the double-whammy of Ni and Ti, getting out of your head and living in the moment will be difficult, but so very rewarding. It’s a lot easier—and more fun—when someone can show you the way and the how.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[David Nelson]

Interesting point Ian. I guess that explains why INFJs are more about the ‘fantasy’ when it comes to sex. The sensory aspect is more of a mystery to us, and probably less important that our internal sense of arousal.

 

[aeon]

Interesting point Ian. I guess that explains why INFJs are more about the ‘fantasy’ when it comes to sex. The sensory aspect is more of a mystery to us, and probably less important that our internal sense of arousal.

Perhaps. That said, INFJs live in, and must navigate, the world like everyone else. None exist as an embodiment of poles, or the extremes of the spectrums on which the points that describe them lie. There is a sweet-spot for each and every, where some homeostasis is found, and in this way, connection with another, in both mind and body, is made possible, as guided by heart.

Consider for a moment, if you will, that the human potential describes one who has integrated their shadow, and brought each and every cognitive function into awareness, none with primacy. The training required for such an actualized individual must necessarily require disciplines antithetical to their initial, unrealized, and undeveloped state.

In short, if an INFJ is to become an ubermensch, and herald the clarion call for the new age that will be brought about through the realization of vision made manifest, that INFJ must endeavor to become a Se-Master.

Cheers,
Ian

edit: a word

 

[Wyote]

Consider for a moment, if you will, that the human potential describes one who has integrated their shadow, and brought each and every cognitive function into awareness, none with primacy. The training required for such an actualized individual must require disciplines antithetical to their initial, unrealized, and undeveloped state.

In short, if an INFJ is to become an ubermensch, and herald the clarion call for the new age that will be brought about through the realization of vision made manifest, that INFJ must endeavor to become a Se-Master.

I forget the details, but this endeavor is a very bad road to travel.
All signs point to traveling the road towards becoming more of who you are, your natural talents.
Shadow integration is about becoming aware of the sides not known/seen, not becoming the darkness.

 

[David Nelson]

I played a lot of badminton as a teenager, then didn’t play for over 30 years. I’ve got back into it a few months ago. I’m quite a good player, especially in smashing hard. I have always been a pretty good all rounder in sports, but never exceptional. I have great moments then poor moments. I’m sure Se inferior plays a part in limiting me. Probably most professional sportspersons are Se doms. I wonder if INFJs in general are good at physical sports! At least we have Se in our stack.

 

[David Nelson]

I forget the details, but this endeavor is a very bad road to travel.
All signs point to traveling the road towards becoming more of who you are, your natural talents.
Shadow integration is about becoming aware of the sides not known/seen, not becoming the darkness.

Yes I agree. We cannot overcome our natural limitations as embodiment, but we can work round them when needed with some effort.

 

[Matty]

Don’t you mean Se doms are all about the physical like martial arts. Si doms don’t tend to be all that physical in my experience.

No, Se is sensory and experiential... essentially hedonistic. Si is about the internal experience of one's own body, how it moves, coordination, physical fitness (not about looks, but about strength), etc.

 

[John K]

I forget the details, but this endeavor is a very bad road to travel.
All signs point to traveling the road towards becoming more of who you are, your natural talents.
Shadow integration is about becoming aware of the sides not known/seen, not becoming the darkness.

I’m sure this is right. The risk is that our ego tries to take possession of our whole mind and just ends up splitting itself off from its unconscious roots - which are the very source of its life. Those roots don’t go away and we end up with one hell of an inner conflict that we have no way of controlling easily. Jung seemed to think of individuation as a process akin to something growing organically rather than a project to be tackled, unless it’s mediated by a professional who can provide objective judgements and guidance that are impossible to any individual on their own.

 

[Wyote]

I’m sure this is right. The risk is that our ego tries to take possession of our whole mind and just ends up splitting itself off from its unconscious roots - which are the very source of its life. Those roots don’t go away and we end up with one hell of an inner conflict that we have no way of controlling easily. Jung seemed to think of individuation as a process akin to something growing organically rather than a project to be tackled, unless it’s mediated by a professional who can provide objective judgements and guidance that are impossible to any individual on their own.

After re-reading what @aeon said originally, I think I misspoke a little though my point is still valid and important. What I was talking about was shadow integration and what aeon was saying was to endeavor to improve upon Se, which isn't shadow at all but a healthy part of growth as an INFJ. The real point there though is to work towards a kind of balance/symbiosis between Ni and Se.

Shadow integration/individuation is a different thing altogether and as you said, ought to be an organic process. If it's triggered or initiated aggressively somehow, you'll probably be in need of some serious therapy.

 

[David Nelson]

When I play badminton occasionally I pull of shots which seem impossible and which surprise even me. I also have very quick physical reaction times, while being cognitively slow thinking due to Ni dominance. These seem contradictory, but who know maybe Ni can help Se??

 

[John K]

After re-reading what @aeon said originally, I think I misspoke a little though my point is still valid and important. What I was talking about was shadow integration and what aeon was saying was to endeavor to improve upon Se, which isn't shadow at all but a healthy part of growth as an INFJ. The real point there though is to work towards a kind of balance/symbiosis between Ni and Se.

Shadow integration/individuation is a different thing altogether and as you said, ought to be an organic process. If it's triggered or initiated aggressively somehow, you'll probably be in need of some serious therapy.

Definitely. It’s to do with ego attitude to the rest of our mind that determines whether it’s a healthy process or not. Playing with our inferior function is a great way of getting closer to our unconscious mind. Trying to take possession of it just slams the door shut.

 

[Sidis Coruscatis]

Maybe this will put the endless debate to rest. It won't, but it could.

Redefining Sensing:

Spoiler: 1

Spoiler: 2

Spoiler: 3

Spoiler: 4

Redefining Intuition:

Spoiler: 1

Spoiler: 2

Spoiler: 3

Spoiler: 4

Spoiler: 5

I'm too lazy to do the entire judging section right now.

 

[John K]

Maybe this will put the endless debate to rest. It won't, but it could.

Intuition Spoiler 5 says you've no chance

I really enjoyed going through these. On the Sensing possibilities, I was wondering all the time if you were going to mention individuation - and there it is in the Yes option (I don't mean Jungian individuation, but the ability to discriminate objects).

On Intuition, I was delighted that your Yes box was occupied by something very consistent with positive scepticism, which is dear to my heart. I think Ni has a lot to do with the shimmering multiverse of possibilities - it's stifled by too much interference from the judging functions.