Paranormal Debate and/or Debunk thread | INFJ Forum

Paranormal Debate and/or Debunk thread

say what

I like soft things...so soft!
Jan 8, 2014
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There seems to be some interest in discussing proof or debunking paranormal experiences! So lets discuss that here!

Do you have proof?
Do you have debunked proof?
Do you have questions?
What are your thoughts?

Share and be open! Discuss and decide! Be critical but not judgemental! Enjoy! :)
 
How can you prove something that can't be proven by definition?

If you can prove it, then what makes it paranormal?
 
How can you prove something that can't be proven by definition?

If you can prove it, then what makes it paranormal?

So, is something only paranormal if it can't be proven?
 
I think one of the key questions is if it does exist, what does that mean for what we believe otherwise? I may know something exists but I may not want to interact or engage with it because of consequences associated with what it is or the nature of it's existence. For example, I don't believe in ghosts but I'm aware that spirits exist but because of my religious education, I've learned that these are not things to play around with and can have serious consequences delving into them or conjuring them, so I stay away. So, it's not just belief which matters but how we think about how we use our knowledge of their existence to manage our engagement with them. I've experienced somethings and have come away realizing that it's often best to leave well enough alone.
 
I have spent a good portion of my life looking for truths that no one can dispute (without potentially getting very messed up). Things like, humans need to intake water to survive. The sun warms the earth etc...

For me truths and facts are those things that cannot be denied by any sane person. So, no proof of ghosts yet. Doesn't mean they dont exist, it just means there is not irrefutable proof yet. Until there is, Im not jumping to conclusions and throwing my cards in with the camp that says they are real.
 
I'm a ghost. You only see what you want to see.
How would you know you are not? How would you not know that you are dead only thinking you are alive?
 
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I think one of the key questions is if it does exist, what does that mean for what we believe otherwise? I may know something exists but I may not want to interact or engage with it because of consequences associated with what it is or the nature of it's existence. For example, I don't believe in ghosts but I'm aware that spirits exist but because of my religious education, I've learned that these are not things to play around with and can have serious consequences delving into them or conjuring them, so I stay away. So, it's not just belief which matters but how we think about how we use our knowledge of their existence to manage our engagement with them. I've experienced somethings and have come away realizing that it's often best to leave well enough alone.


Very interesting! I agree- they're not something I want to engage with (unless they're the warm nice spirits like mah grams!)

So, do you believe in them? Or just stay away because you believe in their consequences?

I do agree that there is a huge question about - what does it mean if they do exist! I think this question is why a lot of people don't believe...because if they do- it changes so much! And has the potential to change so much!
 
I have spent a good portion of my life looking for truths that no one can dispute (without potentially getting very messed up). Things like, humans need to intake water to survive. The sun warms the earth etc...

For me truths and facts are those things that cannot be denied by any sane person. So, no proof of ghosts yet. Doesn't mean they dont exist, it just means there is not irrefutable proof yet. Until there is, Im not jumping to conclusions and throwing my cards in with the camp that says they are real.

Do you believe in the big bang? Black holes? Time? Sub-particle atoms? Climate change? Have you seen these things? Or have you just been told about these things? Have you looked into the evidence? What is their evidence?

You say there's no proof- but again...have you looked for it? Have you researched it?

It's very easy to disprove something isn't real...but extremely hard to prove that it is real. Just because there's not mainstream evidence announcing the paranormal's existence- doesn't mean it's not real. Even moreso- just because we don't have the science/technology to prove it's real, doesn't mean it's not real.

How long did people go on proclaiming the world was flat - based on scientific evidence? We now know that's not true. But for years and year, people who didn't agree the world was flat, were wrong and ill-informed. Science can prove a lot of things, but it's not always right - evidence can be manipulated in ways to distort the truth or only fulfil a specific perspective!
 
Very interesting! I agree- they're not something I want to engage with (unless they're the warm nice spirits like mah grams!)

So, do you believe in them? Or just stay away because you believe in their consequences?

I do agree that there is a huge question about - what does it mean if they do exist! I think this question is why a lot of people don't believe...because if they do- it changes so much! And has the potential to change so much!

I know spirits exist, again from experience but as I mentioned, it's not an experience i want to repeat so I stay away. I think belief in them only largely impacts someone if they are raised to think they don't exist or are just myths or fairy tales, or if what they are taught is positive or negative. If you're taught they exist but not to be messed with then, your fear of their reality keeps you cautious and avoidant. So, it may not change anything for you because you were taught from the beginning that they exist. If you're taught they don't exist and are just myths, then it may shock or surprise to find out they do and even change your view of the afterlife, or maybe you just be like "ok, they do exist" just like skittles and Santa Claus. :D
 
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Do you believe in the big bang? Black holes? Time? Sub-particle atoms? Climate change? Have you seen these things? Or have you just been told about these things? Have you looked into the evidence? What is their evidence?

You say there's no proof- but again...have you looked for it? Have you researched it?

It's very easy to disprove something isn't real...but extremely hard to prove that it is real. Just because there's not mainstream evidence announcing the paranormal's existence- doesn't mean it's not real. Even moreso- just because we don't have the science/technology to prove it's real, doesn't mean it's not real.

How long did people go on proclaiming the world was flat - based on scientific evidence? We now know that's not true. But for years and year, people who didn't agree the world was flat, were wrong and ill-informed. Science can prove a lot of things, but it's not always right - evidence can be manipulated in ways to distort the truth or only fulfil a specific perspective!

Good points, but just because we can imagine something does automatically give it credence as potentially being real. I dont know what the argument is. I am not saying people dont see or experience things they call ghosts. Of course I cant say they exist or dont, just like I cant say the same of a god or gods. I am saying that out of all the possibilities though, the one where people die and come back just to screw with the people still alive seems to be the most unlikely scenario.

BTW no I dont believe in the Big Bang. Its just a theory that's never been proven. I do believe in atoms, blackholes sub atomics but time...well time is a human creation but yeah I believe in it every-time I look at a clock. Whether it has any relevance beyond human conceptualization is another matter altogether.
 
I think...it may be that the definition of "spirit" needs to change or at least be expanded upon.
 
When I was seventeen, I had an uncle that gave me a watch of his before he died, along with some books and souvenirs. I received the watch through the mail and it was in good working condition and set to the correct time. However, instead of being numbered, the watch had a dash for every hour, and it didn't have a second hand. It was an expensive, gold watch, so I put it away for safe keeping. When he passed away I went to put it on before I went to the funeral home with my family and noticed that the watch wasn't working anymore and it no longer showed the correct time. I recall getting shivers up my spine and I showed the watch to my family and they were all saddened to see that the watched stopped working. We all thought it was a sign, and reminded me of an old song we sang in grade school about a grandfather clock that stopped working the day its 90+ year old owner died. So we went to the funeral home for calling hours and my mom kept bringing up the watch to the rest of the family. Someone asked to see it so I pulled back the sleeve of my jacket to show them and low and behold, the watch was not only working, but it was set to the correct time! I couldn't believe it! I called my mom over and showed her and she couldn't believe it either and so she started telling everyone about how her brother was trying to reach out to us. It was exhilarating to know that he was connecting with us in the after life. It gave us a piece of mind.

During the service, I was looking down at my watch and noticed something peculiar. When I first noticed the watch wasn't working, the knob was on the other side of the watch face! That meant that the watch was working this whole time! I had the fucker upside down when I thought it was no longer working! When I put the watch on, I must of turned it around so I would see the correct time when I looked at it. So much for messages from beyond the grave. I felt like such a boob and didn't dare tell anyone for quite a while. They had so much faith in what happened.
 
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Because this is a debate, I wonder if anyone has considered this about EVPs. Peoples intestinal tracks make noises when they are hungry and when they are not. Is it possible that when you have a super sensitive sound recording device it picks these noises up and that it occupationally (funny this was supposed to be "occasionally" but occupationally kind of works as well. Either way thank you spell check.) sounds a little like someone talking?
 
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Because this is a debate, I wonder if anyone has considered this about EVPs. Peoples intestinal tracks make noises when they are hungry and when they are not. Is it possible that when you have a super sensitive sound recording device it picks these noises up and that it occupationally sounds a little like someone talking?

I have always questioned the validity of EVPs myself...I just stopped paying attention to it when brought up...there’s usually too much background movement and noise.
 
Good points, but just because we can imagine something does automatically give it credence as potentially being real. I dont know what the argument is. I am not saying people dont see or experience things they call ghosts. Of course I cant say they exist or dont, just like I cant say the same of a god or gods. I am saying that out of all the possibilities though, the one where people die and come back just to screw with the people still alive seems to be the most unlikely scenario.

BTW no I dont believe in the Big Bang. Its just a theory that's never been proven. I do believe in atoms, blackholes sub atomics but time...well time is a human creation but yeah I believe in it every-time I look at a clock. Whether it has any relevance beyond human conceptualization is another matter altogether.

Interesting. I don't think all ghosts have a purpose...some simply exist!
 
Because this is a debate, I wonder if anyone has considered this about EVPs. Peoples intestinal tracks make noises when they are hungry and when they are not. Is it possible that when you have a super sensitive sound recording device it picks these noises up and that it occupationally (funny this was supposed to be "occasionally" but occupationally kind of works as well. Either way thank you spell check.) sounds a little like someone talking?

For me, I think EVPs are sketchy. A lot of times people hear what they want to hear, and then it's like it a virus that just flourishes. The reality is, if they weren't looking for it- they probably wouldn't have hear anything.

Have you guys witness/heard any 'spirit boxes'? I don't really know the science behind them, but I find them kind of creepy!!
 
Good points, but just because we can imagine something does automatically give it credence as potentially being real. I dont know what the argument is. I am not saying people dont see or experience things they call ghosts. Of course I cant say they exist or dont, just like I cant say the same of a god or gods. I am saying that out of all the possibilities though, the one where people die and come back just to screw with the people still alive seems to be the most unlikely scenario.

BTW no I dont believe in the Big Bang. Its just a theory that's never been proven. I do believe in atoms, blackholes sub atomics but time...well time is a human creation but yeah I believe in it every-time I look at a clock. Whether it has any relevance beyond human conceptualization is another matter altogether.
Quantum Theory of Ghosts

The Quantum Theory of Ghosts (Abstract Edition)
Originally developed by Professor Max Bruin, PhD


Since the rise of mankind there have been stories of the spirits of the dead returning to haunt the living. The very word, haunt, comes from the concept of an animal feeding place, and ghosts are seen as feeding upon the living. Some societies revere the spirits of their ancestors, but even these myths include angry ghosts who prey upon the hapless mortals.
But what are ghosts? The rise of science tells us that the idea of ghosts as spirits of the dead is absurd. They exist in the supernatural, in a realm where science cannot tread, and as such they are dismissed as little more than the imagination of frightened, backward thinking people. However, with the advent of quantum mechanics, new explanations shed light on why the myth of ghosts remains prevalent in cultures around the world.
What Are Ghosts?
Mythology would tell us that ghosts are the lingering spirits of the dead. Balderdash! Ghosts are not at all the spirits of the dead. They are not, in fact, “spirits” at all. A ghost is, put simply, an impression upon the subatomic weave of the universe, created via strong emotion of a sentient observer.
This means, in other words, that ghosts are not the disembodied personalities of the dead, and, in fact, they can be “spirits” of the living! To understand this phenomena, one must first grasp one of the most fundamental principles of quantum mechanics: observation changes the subject being observed. The simple act of observing or measuring a particle forces it into an energy state. Unobserved, a particle may take any energy state available to it, but when a sentient observer is introduced, the particle becomes locked.
superfastquantum.jpg
Ghosts are created when the observer’s emotions create a semi-permanent “indentation” into the quantum tapestry of the universe. Like the scent of burned toast that remains long after the offending bread is discarded, ghosts are impressions of emotions that remain long after the cause has been resolved. Ghosts, therefore, are formed not from the dead, but from the living and their interactions with the world around them. The recording of events within the subatomic weave gives rise to an afterimage, and depending on the intensity of the emotion and the permeability of the quantum state, different “types” of ghosts can be created.
Negative emotions are many times more likely to cause these effects. The reason for this is currently unknown, though it may have to do with the quantum spin of the universe; in an anti-matter universe, positive emotions might create ghosts more effectively. Regardless of the reason, negative emotions, particularly hate, guilt and grief, are the most common causes for ghost formation. This also explains why ghosts have traditionally been thought of as the spirits of the dead; death of a loved one can cause profound negative emotions from multiple sources, all centered around the memories of the deceased, which can then amalgamate into a ghost that appears to be the deceased.
The formation of ghosts, however, is somewhat rare. It requires more than an excess of negative emotions. The quantum state around the individual or individuals who form the ghost must be favorable for the formation. Certain areas are more susceptible to this than others, especially those where negative emotions are most common, such as cemeteries or hospitals. Other areas may be conducive to ghost formation due to other environmental factors.
Measuring and Classifying Ghosts
The intensity of the impression upon the quantum weave determines the “type” of ghost spawned. Ghosts can be categorized by measurable, observable characteristics:


  • Size and shape
  • Range of motion/area
  • Duration/frequency of appearance

Based on these three data points, ghosts fall into one of the following basic categories:


  • Type A – small balls of light, sometimes only captured via camera, repeating in nature, commonly referred to as orbs.
  • Type F – apparitions, may take partially human form, may have auditory component, repeating in nature, non-independent.
  • Type N – specters, human form, full sensory spectrum, semi-independent in nature.
  • Type R – poltergeist, metamorphic form, sensory and extrasensory spectrum, capable of limited independent action.
  • Type X – entity, fully independent with wide range of quantum-based abilities, often self-aware, sometimes called “demons”, capable of possessing human host via quantum alignment.

Type X ghosts are exceedingly rare, formed from large quantum disturbances over many years. The classic western “ghost” would be either Type N or Type R. Intervening types, for example Type B-Type E, are variations on the primary of each subset. A Type B orb, for example, has measurable color shifting.
Because ghosts are quantum phenomenon, they can be disrupted via other quantum phenomenon. Powerful magnets, for example, can cause ghosts to be attracted or repelled, and radioactive materials can cause mutations in a ghost’s form. Since ghosts are not made of solid matter, they can pass through objects with no difficulty, but the movement of matter is very difficult for any ghost below the R subtype.
Interactions With Ghosts
Ghosts with fully independent awareness often believe they are the mythological spirits of the dead and act accordingly. Only on rare occasions do they accept that they are not the remnants of the dead, though this may explain various other mythological creatures such as djinn or faeries.
Destructive ghosts are generally bound to the event that created them, and may be discorporated if the event is resolved. This explains why ghosts might vanish after a murder is solved, for example. Additionally, certain items may cause ghosts to be forced away, not due to any “magical” properties, but simple because the quantum state of the item in anathema to the ghost’s quantum signature.
In conclusion, ghosts are neither supernatural nor imaginary. They can be quantified and measured. An intriguing experiment would follow; placing a Type R or higher ghost within a particle accelerator. However, such an experiment would likely destroy the ghost, though it might reveal new subatomic particles. In any event, ghost study may be academically pursued without need for the ridiculous trappings of the paranormal. As always, science shows us that the world around us is more complex that we imagine, but always within our grasp.
 
Quantum Theory of Ghosts

The Quantum Theory of Ghosts (Abstract Edition)
Originally developed by Professor Max Bruin, PhD


Since the rise of mankind there have been stories of the spirits of the dead returning to haunt the living. The very word, haunt, comes from the concept of an animal feeding place, and ghosts are seen as feeding upon the living. Some societies revere the spirits of their ancestors, but even these myths include angry ghosts who prey upon the hapless mortals.
But what are ghosts? The rise of science tells us that the idea of ghosts as spirits of the dead is absurd. They exist in the supernatural, in a realm where science cannot tread, and as such they are dismissed as little more than the imagination of frightened, backward thinking people. However, with the advent of quantum mechanics, new explanations shed light on why the myth of ghosts remains prevalent in cultures around the world.
What Are Ghosts?
Mythology would tell us that ghosts are the lingering spirits of the dead. Balderdash! Ghosts are not at all the spirits of the dead. They are not, in fact, “spirits” at all. A ghost is, put simply, an impression upon the subatomic weave of the universe, created via strong emotion of a sentient observer.
This means, in other words, that ghosts are not the disembodied personalities of the dead, and, in fact, they can be “spirits” of the living! To understand this phenomena, one must first grasp one of the most fundamental principles of quantum mechanics: observation changes the subject being observed. The simple act of observing or measuring a particle forces it into an energy state. Unobserved, a particle may take any energy state available to it, but when a sentient observer is introduced, the particle becomes locked.
superfastquantum.jpg
Ghosts are created when the observer’s emotions create a semi-permanent “indentation” into the quantum tapestry of the universe. Like the scent of burned toast that remains long after the offending bread is discarded, ghosts are impressions of emotions that remain long after the cause has been resolved. Ghosts, therefore, are formed not from the dead, but from the living and their interactions with the world around them. The recording of events within the subatomic weave gives rise to an afterimage, and depending on the intensity of the emotion and the permeability of the quantum state, different “types” of ghosts can be created.
Negative emotions are many times more likely to cause these effects. The reason for this is currently unknown, though it may have to do with the quantum spin of the universe; in an anti-matter universe, positive emotions might create ghosts more effectively. Regardless of the reason, negative emotions, particularly hate, guilt and grief, are the most common causes for ghost formation. This also explains why ghosts have traditionally been thought of as the spirits of the dead; death of a loved one can cause profound negative emotions from multiple sources, all centered around the memories of the deceased, which can then amalgamate into a ghost that appears to be the deceased.
The formation of ghosts, however, is somewhat rare. It requires more than an excess of negative emotions. The quantum state around the individual or individuals who form the ghost must be favorable for the formation. Certain areas are more susceptible to this than others, especially those where negative emotions are most common, such as cemeteries or hospitals. Other areas may be conducive to ghost formation due to other environmental factors.
Measuring and Classifying Ghosts
The intensity of the impression upon the quantum weave determines the “type” of ghost spawned. Ghosts can be categorized by measurable, observable characteristics:


  • Size and shape
  • Range of motion/area
  • Duration/frequency of appearance

Based on these three data points, ghosts fall into one of the following basic categories:


  • Type A – small balls of light, sometimes only captured via camera, repeating in nature, commonly referred to as orbs.
  • Type F – apparitions, may take partially human form, may have auditory component, repeating in nature, non-independent.
  • Type N – specters, human form, full sensory spectrum, semi-independent in nature.
  • Type R – poltergeist, metamorphic form, sensory and extrasensory spectrum, capable of limited independent action.
  • Type X – entity, fully independent with wide range of quantum-based abilities, often self-aware, sometimes called “demons”, capable of possessing human host via quantum alignment.

Type X ghosts are exceedingly rare, formed from large quantum disturbances over many years. The classic western “ghost” would be either Type N or Type R. Intervening types, for example Type B-Type E, are variations on the primary of each subset. A Type B orb, for example, has measurable color shifting.
Because ghosts are quantum phenomenon, they can be disrupted via other quantum phenomenon. Powerful magnets, for example, can cause ghosts to be attracted or repelled, and radioactive materials can cause mutations in a ghost’s form. Since ghosts are not made of solid matter, they can pass through objects with no difficulty, but the movement of matter is very difficult for any ghost below the R subtype.
Interactions With Ghosts
Ghosts with fully independent awareness often believe they are the mythological spirits of the dead and act accordingly. Only on rare occasions do they accept that they are not the remnants of the dead, though this may explain various other mythological creatures such as djinn or faeries.
Destructive ghosts are generally bound to the event that created them, and may be discorporated if the event is resolved. This explains why ghosts might vanish after a murder is solved, for example. Additionally, certain items may cause ghosts to be forced away, not due to any “magical” properties, but simple because the quantum state of the item in anathema to the ghost’s quantum signature.
In conclusion, ghosts are neither supernatural nor imaginary. They can be quantified and measured. An intriguing experiment would follow; placing a Type R or higher ghost within a particle accelerator. However, such an experiment would likely destroy the ghost, though it might reveal new subatomic particles. In any event, ghost study may be academically pursued without need for the ridiculous trappings of the paranormal. As always, science shows us that the world around us is more complex that we imagine, but always within our grasp.


Awesome. As I said I think the definition of ghost\spirit needs to evolve a bit. The article above though throws around scientific terminology with out any real binding. Quantum this, quantum that without any real relationship to the actual quantum world. I also find it interesting the mention "solid matter". We know now nothing is solid in this world, there is only the illusion of solidity. Therefor, we ourselves are bit like ghosts.

Is it possible ghosts are that of beings perhaps human or not residing in alternate dimensions rather than that of dead people? I can accept that "ghosts" are real phenomenon but again, there isnt any proof that is enough to convince everyone. See a ghost by yourself? How do you know your mind wasnt playing tricks on you or that electromagnetic forces in the area caused you to hallucinate? Shifts in the earths crust have caused documented hallucinations. Both of these have been PROVEN to happen scientifically but the existence of real ghosts still has not. For those of you who have seen ghosts by yourself and with others, how do you know these weren't hallucinations? You DONT. A hallucination does not transfer well to video, maybe this is why there is no proof as of yet.

My definition of a "ghost" when I discard the notion of them being real is one of a person who was alive, died and has come back to this world in another form and retains its intelligence. Possible yes, the mostly likely out of all possibilities? No.
 
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Awesome. As I said I think the definition of ghost\spirit needs to evolve a bit. The article above though throws around scientific terminology with out any real binding. Quantum this, quantum that without any real relationship to the actual quantum world. I also find it interesting the mention "solid matter". We know now nothing is solid in this world, there is only the illusion of solidity. Therefor, we ourselves are bit like ghosts.

Is it possible ghosts are that of beings perhaps human or not residing in alternate dimensions rather than that of dead people? I can accept that "ghosts" are real phenomenon but again, there isnt any proof that is enough to convince everyone. See a ghost by yourself? How do you know your mind wasnt playing tricks on you or that electromagnetic forces in the area caused you to hallucinate? Shifts in the earths crust have caused documented hallucinations. Both of these have been PROVEN to happen scientifically but the existence of real ghosts still has not. For those of you who have seen ghosts by yourself and with others, how do you know these weren't hallucinations? You DONT. A hallucination does not transfer well to video, maybe this is why there is no proof as of yet.

My definition of a "ghost" when I discard the notion of them being real is one of a person who was alive, died and has come back to this world in another form and retains its intelligence. Possible yes, the mostly likely out of all possibilities? No.

The instances I am speaking of make me think otherwise....(I have told these stories several times, so bear with me)

1.)
My ex-girlfriend and I were house-sitting for her parents a few years back while they were away.
Her former bedroom had been converted into a guest room and we were just going to sleep.
The door was closed, the window was closed, the AC was off, no fans, etc...in the room.
I was on the side of the bed closest to the door and my ex was on the other....in front of the closet next to the door was a rolling hanger rack with a bunch of empty hangers hanging on it...no clothes.
Just as I was beginning to drift off there came a violent crash from the rack....my first thought was my ex had thrown a pillow or something at it for some reason.
I sat up, flipped on the light and saw all the hangers still moving back and forth from whatever hit it.
My ex says “what the fuck was that?” and as I look, there is nothing on the ground.
Nothing was thrown...nada...zip.
We slept elsewhere that night....also there would have been no way for my ex to get up...go around the end of the bed in the dark without me knowing it...hit the hangers...run back and slip into the bed without making it move.
The next morning I tried everything I possibly could to recreate the crash....no dice.
I even checked for earthquakes in the area.
So please explain to me how we both witnessed the exact same hallucination?
You can’t.


2.) This one was only witnessed by me....so believe what you want...but the end result was a broken clock.

I was sleeping at my old apartment when I had this dream that an old woman had come into my home...in the dream, she was a witch...not the green witch with a crooked nose...but somehow I knew she was.
I also knew that she meant me harm....
Next thing I know...(and I never do this) I sit up in my sleep and yell at her in my dream and in reality to “Get the fuck out!!” just as I am waking up.
I had a mantle clock on my dresser...in the back or the dresser...about two feet back.
The clock flies off the dresser and breaks on the ground just as I am waking up and yelling.
So please, once again...explain that one to me.
Nothing else was disturbed, except for the clock.
Hallucinations don’t break things.

The only possibility for either of these besides a ghost or something paranormal, would be some sort of psychokinetic blast from me.

Yes...the thought of inter-dimentional crossovers has been, and is being, explored.
Also...if time is a fluid thing...it is possible that you could be “haunting” yourself.