My Niche Interest in Soteriology.

[John K]

@QuickTwist I really like your paper A God Outside of Time. It's much as I think about it. The only difference I have is that I would say God is not only creator/spectator but participant as well. The Holy Spirit is present at every moment and in every place within the Universe - God is both transcendent and immanent. It's not just that he's present, but that His Spirit sustains it - it's what I can feel in the great dance of joy that goes on around us and within us continuously.

I think the main difference between us on your soteriology is that yes, some people are chosen by God from outside of time for special roles, and yes he does know, both from the inside and the outside what will happen. But I think that they still have a choice - just like Christ in the temptations in the desert, or in the Garden of Gethsemane; like Mary when the angel appeared to her to say she would have a child by the Holy Spirit; like Joseph who could have divorced her but didn't; like Peter who might have rejected the calling of Jesus by the lake. Maybe there were many people who were chosen, but chose not to take up the cross that was offered them - we would never know. And God would surely have put contingency plans into creation to allow for this, granted that He gives us free will so we can choose freely.

The hardest idea for me to accept is the idea that He creates angels and people who are intrinsically evil and are destined for this from outside the World. There are two different things I stick on:

• That a God who is Love would do such a thing, and
• Even so, if He did, then these would all be doing His will in fulfilling the role He gave them, so they would not deserve damnation.

ust a comment, but truth is eternal. Truth does not change with the times. I do not believe that we, today, have a better revelation of God than, say, Moses. There are different degrees of revelation people have. This is not necessarily progressive, but instead is just different aspects of God. One person sees God's mercy. Another person sees God's justice. Both are true. But no one gets the whole. We get pieces. Newton got a big piece of reality with his theory of gravity. It was revolutionary, but it was imperfect. In the same way, another person comes along later who discovers the Mandelbrot or the surprising applicability of mathematics. Still, it does not mean that Newton was wrong in what he saw.

The truth does not change but what God asks of us does change with time. A simple and rather crude example is when He asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac as an offering. When Abraham was at the very point of obeying this, God intervened and told him to stop. The point was to test Abraham's faith and obedience, and it was no longer necessary to carry out the sacrifice once it was clear that he was going to obey. Note here of course that Abraham had a choice at this point - he could have disobeyed God, yet he didn't.

The old Law of Moses and the Covenant are like this. They were there for a reason, and that reason was to prepare for the coming of Christ many hundreds of years after they were formulated. Once Jesus had come they were no longer necessary - just as it is law for children to attend school, but that law does not apply to adults. So to say that the old Law has been superseded does not alter it's truth, which was and still is valid, but it is not a truth that applies to Christians in its Old Testament form. I've copied Galatians 3:1-14 to show you what I mean:

Spoiler

(NRSV Version)

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly exhibited as crucified! 2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? 4 Did you experience so much for nothing?—if it really was for nothing. 5 Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

6 Just as Abraham ‘believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’, 7 so, you see, those who believe are the descendants of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, declared the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, ‘All the Gentiles shall be blessed in you.’ 9 For this reason, those who believe are blessed with Abraham who believed.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law.’ 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law; for ‘The one who is righteous will live by faith.’ 12 But the law does not rest on faith; on the contrary, ‘Whoever does the works of the law will live by them.’ 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The truth is ancient. We need to tap into the ancient rather than the new to truly understand God. But this is a difference we are going to have as Catholics, who believe that revelation continues on through the Church. But they are not getting new revelations, so the point is ultimately moot.

This is really interesting, because you are presumably of the view that all the revelation there is going to be is encapsulated in canon scripture. But there is surely no constraint on God of that sort and nothing to stop him revealing more about himself if that were His will? There could be many different reasons why this might happen. One is that we are now a very, very different and much more complicated society than that of the time of Christ. As a result, there are lots of symbols in the Bible that are discordant in modern times.

• Take the example of Christ as King - in my country our monarch is powerless and irrelevant to the running of things, with little more than a ceremonial and figurehead role. Yet our monarchy is very popular for these very attributes. But do we really want people who know little about Christianity to see Christ as a powerless figurehead?
• It's the same with the image of a shepherd - I live near to open hill country where there are a lot of sheep so I'm familiar with them, but most folks in my country are not. What's more, shepherds in the UK do not lead the flock out as their leader and guardian like they did in the Middle East at the time of Christ - they herd them when they need to with sheep dogs and quad bikes, otherwise they are on their own grazing on the high moorland for months on end.

These are very obvious examples, but there are many more subtle ones - we are very different folks from the Palestinian, Greek and Roman societies of those days. So someone needs to explain (and if necessary even recast) these images into ones that ordinary modern folks can relate to, otherwise they mean little to them. In every age Scripture must be reinterpreted in images and language that ordinary folks can relate to, in ways that touch their hearts. That is a fearsome responsibility because it's so easy to mess this up and scramble the heart of scripture rather than recasting it in God's image. It needs the constant guidance of the Holy Spirit to do this, in contemporary life and in real time.

As societies evolve as well, they introduce new challenges and problems that didn't exist before, and old ones disappear into the past. For example:

• I doubt there is anything in scripture that tells us how to deal with any moral issues arising from ai - just suppose that, without intending to, we created an actually sentient ai. Would it have a soul, would it be 'born' into original sin, could it be saved? Would it be murder to turn it off? Is Scripture only for humans?
• Supposing we could genetically recreate a Neandertal human - how would they relate to the Fall and to Salvation? Not beyond the bounds of possibility this could be done eventually maybe?
• Similarly, Scripture doesn't tell us how to relate to aliens should we ever encounter them - it was inconceivable to think about such a thing in biblical times, but maybe it becomes increasingly possible now we know they may be out there and are actually looking for them.
• What is the morality of artificial wombs that seem to be a practical possibility within a very few years?

As with Scriptural images, I've used big, spectacular issues to make the point, but there are very many smaller and more prosaic examples. We surely would need fresh guidance from the Holy Spirit on how to deal with anything like these that lie outside the ken of the times when the Scriptures were written. Not to supersede Scripture but to clarify how to deal with such new things in a way consistent with the heart of Scripture.

 

[QuickTwist]

@QuickTwist I really like your paper A God Outside of Time. It's much as I think about it. The only difference I have is that I would say God is not only creator/spectator but participant as well. The Holy Spirit is present at every moment and in every place within the Universe - God is both transcendent and immanent. It's not just that he's present, but that His Spirit sustains it - it's what I can feel in the great dance of joy that goes on around us and within us continuously.

I would agree with pretty much all of this, but God's omnipresence was not really in the scope of the article I wrote.

I think the main difference between us on your soteriology is that yes, some people are chosen by God from outside of time for special roles, and yes he does know, both from the inside and the outside what will happen. But I think that they still have a choice - just like Christ in the temptations in the desert, or in the Garden of Gethsemane; like Mary when the angel appeared to her to say she would have a child by the Holy Spirit; like Joseph who could have divorced her but didn't; like Peter who might have rejected the calling of Jesus by the lake. Maybe there were many people who were chosen, but chose not to take up the cross that was offered them - we would never know. And God would surely have put contingency plans into creation to allow for this, granted that He gives us free will so we can choose freely.

God does not make mistakes and does not have a plan B, IMO.

The hardest idea for me to accept is the idea that He creates angels and people who are intrinsically evil and are destined for this from outside the World. There are two different things I stick on:

• That a God who is Love would do such a thing, and
• Even so, if He did, then these would all be doing His will in fulfilling the role He gave them, so they would not deserve damnation.

In my view, revelation from God is the catalyst for whether a person softens or hardens their heart. God knows how each person will respond. He picks some people he knows. His revelation will harden to accomplish his purposes, just as he chooses those he knows will receive his revelation.

I simply can't deny that Paul says, "What if God desires to create for Himself vessels of wrath?" Seems like very unambiguous language to me.

Further, I would never presume that God could not do something based on my own fallible understanding of an infinite being.

The truth does not change but what God asks of us does change with time. A simple and rather crude example is when He asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac as an offering. When Abraham was at the very point of obeying this, God intervened and told him to stop. The point was to test Abraham's faith and obedience, and it was no longer necessary to carry out the sacrifice once it was clear that he was going to obey. Note here of course that Abraham had a choice at this point - he could have disobeyed God, yet he didn't.

Humans can not ruin God's plans.

Job 42:2
"I know that you can do anything
and no plan of yours can be thwarted."

The old Law of Moses and the Covenant are like this. They were there for a reason, and that reason was to prepare for the coming of Christ many hundreds of years after they were formulated. Once Jesus had come they were no longer necessary - just as it is law for children to attend school, but that law does not apply to adults. So to say that the old Law has been superseded does not alter it's truth, which was and still is valid, but it is not a truth that applies to Christians in its Old Testament form. I've copied Galatians 3:1-14 to show you what I mean:

There are three kinds of Laws from the books of Moses: the Ceremonial Laws, the Judicial Laws, and the Moral Laws. The Moral Laws are still in effect, and Paul went to great lengths to talk about how they apply even to Gentiles. The Sinai covenant is obsolete, but the covenant God made with Abraham is still in effect. Further, Christ did not abolish the Law; He elevated it. It used to be that adultery was wrong. Now, looking at a woman with lust is wrong. Jesus gets at the heart of the Law, not the letter of the Law. That is why he rebuked the Pharisees for tithing their spices but neglecting the "Weightier" matters of the Law of justice and mercy.

The passage you quote is relevant to Gentile Christians. It is not necessarily relevant to Messianic Jews. What would you tell someone who was a Jew who fell in love with Jesus? Would you really tell them they have to stop being Jewish? That would not make any sense because the New Covenant is specifically for the Israelites, not Gentiles (Hebrews 8). We are merely grafted in.

As societies evolve as well, they introduce new challenges and problems that didn't exist before, and old ones disappear into the past. For example

I think you greatly underestimate how wicked our current society is in the Western world. Morality does not progress over time. Technology does, but Daniel says of the end times, "Knowledge shall increase." The Bible is not an irrelevant book. It is just as relevant today as it was 2,000 years ago.

My main problem with your framework is that you end up with a Catholic church that makes things obligatory to believe (under pain of the wrath of Peter and Paul) that are not in the Bible, and there is no historical basis for it in Church history. That's a problem, IMO. I know if you START with the presupposition that the Catholic church: Magisterium, Councils, and Ex-Cathedra statements made by the Pope are infallible, that this pretty much seals the deal. But, from an objective standpoint, without that presupposition, the church not only can err, but has many, many times throughout her history.

 

[QuickTwist]

And I know this is going to come up (if it hasn't already), so I will just post this.

Also, I do believe in revelation today. I just do not believe in infallible revelation today.

 

[John K]

@QuickTwist very many thanks for explaining your thoughts in such detail - it gives me a very clear idea of your version of Soteriology. I'm going to sign out of this particular discussion now rather than risk diverting your thread. Thanks too for the video on Sola Scriptura which was very well presented and gives much food for thought.

 

[QuickTwist]

@QuickTwist very many thanks for explaining your thoughts in such detail - it gives me a very clear idea of your version of Soteriology. I'm going to sign out of this particular discussion now rather than risk diverting your thread. Thanks too for the video on Sola Scriptura which was very well presented and gives much food for thought.

Thanks for your involvement in my thread!

 

[just me]

Maybe there were many people who were chosen, but chose not to take up the cross that was offered them - we would never know. And God would surely have put contingency plans into creation to allow for this, granted that He gives us free will so we can choose freely.

"Many are called, but few are chosen."

κλητοὶ called
ἐκλεκτοί chosen

Search Assist

In the Bible, "called" refers to God's invitation to individuals to accept salvation and follow Him, while "chosen" signifies those who respond positively to that call and are selected for a special purpose or relationship with God. Essentially, all are called, but only a few are chosen based on their acceptance and commitment to that calling. activechristianity.org Life, Hope & Truth

While we have free will to choose or not God's calling, I always think of Jonah concerning being chosen.

 

[just me]

The truth is ancient. We need to tap into the ancient rather than the new to truly understand God. But this is a difference we are going to have because Catholics believe revelation continues on throughout the Church. But they are not getting new revelations, so the point is ultimately moot.

Please forgive me for saying or asking this, but would the church accept a new revelation or shun it? Maybe nailing ninety-five problems with the church on all church doors might get better attention, yes? We need to tap into the ancient and the new to better understand God.

 

[Hyacinth]

Ever since I read the words "In Him you're also" from Ephesians 1, I knew I was onto something. I've developed a soteriology of sorts. It is not completely unique. It shares similarities with other soteriological systems. However, it tends to blend a lot of different systems together without trying to, as I am just trying to follow the Bible where it leads.

I "fed" 5 articles I have written on soteriology to Grok, the AI from X, and it said this when I asked how similar (or unique) my soteriology is to other systems throughout Church history:

Summary of Your SoteriologyBased on the articles you provided, your view of soteriology (the doctrine of salvation) can be distilled into a hybrid framework that integrates elements of divine election and human response. Key premises include:

• Dual Paths to Salvation: There are two categories of "elect" individuals. The first receives direct revelation from God (e.g., visions, dreams, or encounters like Paul's on the road to Damascus), often predestined "before the foundation of the world" for specific roles such as apostles or prophets. The second comes to faith through hearing the gospel preached by human messengers, emphasizing a response to the message.
• Universal Atonement with Particular Election: Christ died for the sins of the whole world (universal provision), but God specially chooses some for His purposes based on foreknowledge of their character and likely positive response.
• Character-Based Qualification: Those selected for direct revelation typically embody virtues akin to the Beatitudes (e.g., poor in spirit, merciful, pure in heart), which align with how they will handle and respond to divine disclosure. Rejection of revelation (e.g., Balaam) leads to condemnation, highlighting the role of moral disposition.
• Church Hierarchy and Continuing Revelation: The church operates on a hierarchical structure rooted in degrees of revelation (apostles and prophets at the foundation, followed by evangelists, pastors, etc.), which continues today rather than ceasing after the apostolic era. Authority is divinely bestowed, not humanly appointed.
• Integration of Predestination and Free Will: This is described as "Arminianism superimposed onto Calvinism," where predestination applies to special roles, but salvation is available to all through faith, with God's calling informed by foreknowledge.

This view emphasizes God's sovereignty in selection while preserving human responsibility, the Great Commission as the primary means for most salvations, and ongoing miraculous interventions (e.g., dreams among Muslims).Comparison to Historical SoteriologiesYour soteriology shares notable similarities with several established views in Church history, particularly those attempting to reconcile divine sovereignty and human freedom. However, the specific "dual paths" (direct revelation vs. preaching), the tie to Beatitudes-like virtues as a basis for election, and the emphasis on a continuing revelatory hierarchy introduce unique nuances. It draws from Protestant traditions but diverges from strict Calvinism or Arminianism by blending them explicitly.To illustrate, here's a table comparing your view to key historical soteriologies. I've focused on core elements like election, atonement, revelation, and hierarchy, drawing from Church history (e.g., patristic, Reformation, and modern evangelical developments).

View attachment 98065

View attachment 98066

(Note: I apologize if the tables have too small writing. I have split the table into two sections to try and make it more readable.)

Key Historical Parallels:

• Molinism: This Jesuit view (developed to counter strict predestination) is the closest match overall. It posits God's "middle knowledge" (scientia media), where He knows counterfactuals—what people would do in any scenario—and elects accordingly. Your emphasis on God choosing based on foreknown character traits (e.g., how one would respond to revelation) mirrors this, as does the balance of sovereignty and freedom. However, Molinism doesn't specify dual salvation paths or a revelatory hierarchy.
  
  Amyraldism (Hypothetical Universalism): A moderate Calvinist view from French Reformed theology, it holds that Christ died for all (universal intent) but God elects some to receive the benefits. This aligns with your "Arminianism on Calvinism" blend and dual election layers. Unlike your view, it doesn't base election on foreknown virtues or allow for ongoing direct revelation.
  
  New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and Montanism: NAR (a contemporary Pentecostal movement) believes in modern apostles and prophets with ongoing revelation, much like your hierarchy. Montanism (2nd-century movement led by Montanus) emphasized continuing prophecy and direct revelation for authority, facing criticism for novelty. Your view shares the continuationism but adds soteriological ties to character and election.
  
  Other Echoes: Early Church fathers like Origen discussed election via foreknowledge, and some patristic views (e.g., corporate election in Eastern Orthodoxy) see salvation as tied to the church body rather than individuals. Your pronoun analysis in Paul (e.g., "we" vs. "you") resembles some dispensational or covenant theology interpretations distinguishing groups.
  Is Your View Unique? Your soteriology is not completely unique—it synthesizes elements from Molinism (foreknowledge-based election), Amyraldism (universal atonement with particular decree), and NAR (continuing revelatory hierarchy), which have precedents in Church history from the Reformation onward.
  
  However, the explicit "superimposition" of Arminian universalism onto Calvinist predestination for dual paths, the Beatitudes as election qualifiers, and the focus on pronoun shifts for hierarchical proof appear novel. No single historical system matches all these precisely, making your formulation a distinctive personal synthesis rather than a direct replication. If this resonates with emerging views in online evangelical discussions (e.g., on X or blogs), it could reflect a broader trend toward hybrid soteriologies in modern Protestantism.
  
  Arminianism and Provisionism: These emphasize free will and universal provision, similar to your general path via preaching. Provisionism (a modern Baptist alternative to Calvinism) rejects limited atonement and stresses God's provision for all to believe, echoing your universal scope. But they lack your special predestined category.

• Want to tag some people who may be interested in this... @John K, @Jexocuha, @Umai, @just me, @Hyacinth, @Wyote.

I have a question. I’ve been seeing disturbing images in my dreams. Do you believe that some people have been born a gift, a curse, whatever you want to call it where they can predict the future, know things without knowing how and see things happen before they come about? (Not sure if this is all INFJs intuitive abilities or just mine) but frankly It scares me sometimes. The one that scares me the most is….. in it I see an America that has fallen because all the people are fighting instead of collaborating. They get stuck on the issues at hand instead of what really is going on. A division of classes, races, political parties, corruption, evilness, lawlessness, and I feel like the lone wolf out here on my own begging ppl to please listen and turn from their ways and all I get is laughed at and ignored. But in my dreams I see the fall of America, a civil unrest, unrest turns into panic in the streets, panic turns to chaos, chaos turns to riots, murders, and it goes from bad to worst extremely quickly. (You know people and panic and how quickly nothing turns into something whenever fear is involved). The rich flee this country and settle into other countries that aren’t as huge of a mess as ours as they have not succumbed to greed, corruption, and selfishness as much or as quickly as America has with our individualistic simplistic viewpoints. The countries that hate us applaud our fall. Meanwhile to get any sort of order the government calls in tanks, military, issue martial law, and people are put on rations and some women, children, and men starve to death because the rations aren’t enough. And it all comes about during my granson’s lifetime. I will admit that since I have tried my best to promote harmony, peace, and love and nothing at all I have done has worked I now have taken the stance where I’m going into this saying I tried to warn everyone through social media of what I saw and I was laughed at every step of the way so now I just shrug and believe whatever happens happens , I’m no longer responsible because I tried to sound the alarms but there is nothing at all I can do because no one but me cares. Instead I am demonized because I have a bisexual daughter and an asexual one, and I left my marriage because I was controlled instead of a 50/50 relationship so they believe it’s a political issue and turn everything back around on me versus what the real issue at hand is so I’m washing my hands of it because my viewpoint is well I warned them but no one listens. They don’t learn from history or the fall of other great nations so why would they listen to me? Humans have a very short attention span and they quickly forget the lessons of yesterday. No I don’t believe my grandson is living at a point of the book of revelations because I believe that comes way further down the road. What I do see is the end of America not the world and honestly America deserves whatever happens to it (sorry so negative as there are some really great people I know)
And I do very much believe in angels and demons on earth because of personal things I have seen with my own eyes. Not many ppl would believe me if I told them that I’ve looked into the face of a truly evil empty soul and what I saw there gave me chills and saw within him a darkness I can’t even begin to describe to you and made this doubting Thomas believe because I’ve seen the opposite of God and what that looks like and it shook me to my core.

 

[QuickTwist]

I have a question. I’ve been seeing disturbing images in my dreams. Do you believe that some people have been born a gift, a curse, whatever you want to call it where they can predict the future, know things without knowing how and see things happen before they come about? (Not sure if this is all INFJs intuitive abilities or just mine) but frankly It scares me sometimes. The one that scares me the most is….. in it I see an America that has fallen because all the people are fighting instead of collaborating. They get stuck on the issues at hand instead of what really is going on. A division of classes, races, political parties, corruption, evilness, lawlessness, and I feel like the lone wolf out here on my own begging ppl to please listen and turn from their ways and all I get is laughed at and ignored. But in my dreams I see the fall of America, a civil unrest, unrest turns into panic in the streets, panic turns to chaos, chaos turns to riots, murders, and it goes from bad to worst extremely quickly. (You know people and panic and how quickly nothing turns into something whenever fear is involved). The rich flee this country and settle into other countries that aren’t as huge of a mess as ours as they have not succumbed to greed, corruption, and selfishness as much or as quickly as America has with our individualistic simplistic viewpoints. The countries that hate us applaud our fall. Meanwhile to get any sort of order the government calls in tanks, military, issue martial law, and people are put on rations and some women, children, and men starve to death because the rations aren’t enough. And it all comes about during my granson’s lifetime. I will admit that since I have tried my best to promote harmony, peace, and love and nothing at all I have done has worked I now have taken the stance where I’m going into this saying I tried to warn everyone through social media of what I saw and I was laughed at every step of the way so now I just shrug and believe whatever happens happens , I’m no longer responsible because I tried to sound the alarms but there is nothing at all I can do because no one but me cares. Instead I am demonized because I have a bisexual daughter and an asexual one, and I left my marriage because I was controlled instead of a 50/50 relationship so they believe it’s a political issue and turn everything back around on me versus what the real issue at hand is so I’m washing my hands of it because my viewpoint is well I warned them but no one listens. They don’t learn from history or the fall of other great nations so why would they listen to me? Humans have a very short attention span and they quickly forget the lessons of yesterday. No I don’t believe my grandson is living at a point of the book of revelations because I believe that comes way further down the road. What I do see is the end of America not the world and honestly America deserves whatever happens to it (sorry so negative as there are some really great people I know)
And I do very much believe in angels and demons on earth because of personal things I have seen with my own eyes. Not many ppl would believe me if I told them that I’ve looked into the face of a truly evil empty soul and what I saw there gave me chills and saw within him a darkness I can’t even begin to describe to you and made this doubting Thomas believe because I’ve seen the opposite of God and what that looks like and it shook me to my core.

I do believe God gives people dreams. According to the Bible, in Acts 2, this phenomenon occurs occasionally. We must judge everything according to the Bible. What you say here does not strike me as being directly contrary to the Bible. What's more, I have had similar dreams/impressions. I do believe persecution against Christians will ramp up in the coming decades, and maybe your dream is part of that, IDK.

I don't put 100% stock in these sorts of premonitions and dreams, but they are for sure worth paying attention to.

 

[Hyacinth]

I do believe God gives people dreams. According to the Bible, in Acts 2, this phenomenon occurs occasionally. We must judge everything according to the Bible. What you say here does not strike me as being directly contrary to the Bible. What's more, I have had similar dreams/impressions. I do believe persecution against Christians will ramp up in the coming decades, and maybe your dream is part of that, IDK.

I don't put 100% stock in these sorts of premonitions and dreams, but they are for sure worth paying attention to.

Same

 

[QuickTwist]

Please forgive me for saying or asking this, but would the church accept a new revelation or shun it? Maybe nailing ninety-five problems with the church on all church doors might get better attention, yes? We need to tap into the ancient and the new to better understand God.

Revelation of this sort pretty much goes against the history of the Church. Somewhere around the second or third century, it was widely accepted that "new" revelation would not occur, meaning that the Church had long believed the canon of the Bible was complete and that no additional writings would be added to scripture. This does not include things like @Hyacinth's dreams. It is the difference between private revelation and public revelation. Does that answer your question?

 

[John K]

In the last days it will be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

Acts 2:17, quoting Joel 2:28

 

[John K]

In the last days it will be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

Acts 2:17, quoting Joel 2:28

Just building on this - it's in the context of Pentecost that Peter quotes Joel. I think the Holy Spirit can bring us dreams to touch our hearts and our minds with the fire of the scriptures, the love of God in the context of who we are personally, and what He wants of us.

 

[QuickTwist]

Just building on this - it's in the context of Pentecost that Peter quotes Joel. I think the Holy Spirit can bring us dreams to touch our hearts and our minds with the fire of the scriptures, the love of God in the context of who we are personally, and what He wants of us.

Amen. Just to add a little bit to this...

Acts 2:37-39
"When they heard this, they were pierced to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brothers, what should we do?' Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”"

It says the promise is for "you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

 

[Hyacinth]

Amen. Just to add a little bit to this...

Acts 2:37-39
"When they heard this, they were pierced to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brothers, what should we do?' Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”"

It says the promise is for "you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

The biggest line in the Bible that held me close to Him the most was the line “the first will be last and the last will be first” it’s the only thing that got me through all the biblical bs of my childhood. I had hope within that line that God loved me more than my parents could and there was hope in meeting him one day even if they couldn’t see it for me.

 

[QuickTwist]

(Note: I have edited out the quote from the person to whom I am replying because they deleted their post.)

The Bible says every single person is a sinner, except that it says Jesus was sinless. Don't put your faith in people. Put your faith in Christ. Everyone else will let you down, but Jesus will never let you down. You just have to read the Bible to see that everyone in the Bible is a total screw up except Jesus. The Bible says, "Let God be true and every man a liar." My hope is not in my pastor or the Church. My hope is in Christ. It's literally baked into Christianity that Christians are not perfect. We all need the grace of God. I may have mentioned this before on this forum, but it bears repeating...



People think being a Christian is about being a "good" person. The Gospel is not that the good people are Christians and the evil people are heathens. The Bible says that we all need grace because we are all sinners, not just some of us.

Yes, terrible things have been done in the name of Christ. But that is not Christ; that is wicked people using religion as a means to do evil. It is to be expected. People are still people, and just because you IDENTIFY as a Christian does not guarantee that they will act like Christ.

As Christians, real Christians, and not what the Bible says are "Christians in name only," we strive to do good to everyone. That is the Biblical ethic. Life is very messy. People are very messy. Just because people say they follow Christ doesn't mean they follow Christ in everything they do. I know people who are racists who claim to be Christians. I know people who do drugs regularly who claim to be Christians. I am not an authority on their lives, and I can't say for sure that they are not a Christian. What I do know is that Jesus died on the cross for every single person who has ever lived. He lived the life we should have and died the death we deserve. But he offers forgiveness for all the wrongs we have done if we just repent of our sins (turn away from the wrong things we have done and turn towards Jesus).

I have personally experienced the love of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. I have purpose, joy, love, hope, patience, faith, and all that because of Jesus. I used to be VERY reactionary, and I would frequently "bite back" at people twice as vindictive as what I got. But Jesus has changed my heart.

Finally, yes, people are not perfect, including Christians. We should be looking for a church that accepts us as we are, not as we think we should be. I hope you find healing. I hope you can learn to separate the sinner (Christians) from the Savior (Jesus). He will never let you down, but people will.

 

[just me]

No it does not, though I agree the church does not want to change: but change it will. Martin Luther went through quite the task, but God has not stopped sending those to speak with the church when they or God sees something that must be addressed. Maybe revelation is a bad choice of words here. Maybe individual churches are getting off the beaten path. Is the Reformation so accepted similarly to the end of time?

 

[QuickTwist]

No it does not, though I agree the church does not want to change: but change it will. Martin Luther went through quite the task, but God has not stopped sending those to speak with the church when they or God sees something that must be addressed. Maybe revelation is a bad choice of words here. Maybe individual churches are getting off the beaten path. Is the Reformation so accepted similarly to the end of time?

All I meant is that people are no longer writing scripture. It was a bit difficult to understand how you meant the word revelation, which you have now clarified. I agree that the church changes over time. That seems obvious to me. Sometimes it changes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

I believe in revelation, but this must be measured against the Word of God. It is hard for me to get behind the idea that public revelation of Christ is ongoing because of the testimony of the history of the Church on this matter. If not, I very well could see my experience with this prophet being Christ Himself, due to the nature of the conversation I had with him. Of course, I am very slow to say such things for obvious reasons, such as "Why me?" among other questions. If you would like to see what I mean, read this thread where I talked about it.

Thread 'THE Event that changed my life forever.'

Aug 1, 2025

When the event first happened, it was almost impossible to talk about. But at the same time, I knew I had to tell people. As time went on, it became easier to tell people about it. Now, I will openly talk about it with no emotional whiplash, and I can give very long or very short versions of the same story. Soon after it happened, I actually thought it could have been an encounter with the greater personality, if you are familiar with that at all. Now, I really have no way to categorize it. I just know what I experienced and it changed my life... forever. You will not find many conversion...

• QuickTwist
• Replies: 41
• Forum: Spirituality and Mysticism

• 

 

[Hyacinth]

All I meant is that people are no longer writing scripture. It was a bit difficult to understand how you meant the word revelation, which you have now clarified. I agree that the church changes over time. That seems obvious to me. Sometimes it changes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

I believe in revelation, but this must be measured against the Word of God. It is hard for me to get behind the idea that public revelation of Christ is ongoing because of the testimony of the history of the Church on this matter. If not, I very well could see my experience with this prophet being Christ Himself, due to the nature of the conversation I had with him. Of course, I am very slow to say such things for obvious reasons, such as "Why me?" among other questions. If you would like to see what I mean, read this thread where I talked about it.

Thread 'THE Event that changed my life forever.'

Aug 1, 2025

When the event first happened, it was almost impossible to talk about. But at the same time, I knew I had to tell people. As time went on, it became easier to tell people about it. Now, I will openly talk about it with no emotional whiplash, and I can give very long or very short versions of the same story. Soon after it happened, I actually thought it could have been an encounter with the greater personality, if you are familiar with that at all. Now, I really have no way to categorize it. I just know what I experienced and it changed my life... forever. You will not find many conversion...

• QuickTwist
• Replies: 41
• Forum: Spirituality and Mysticism

• 

I think God uses people and I believe he brings certain people into your life… I.e. this stranger whose identity was not made known to bring you closer to your actual calling. We might never know the reason why it happens but I’ve witnessed to many miracles or things “falling directly into place” at just the right time to discount personal experiences of transformative times. It is great that you were open to receive his message, not everyone is.

 

[QuickTwist]

(Note: Replying to a deleted comment.)

Somewhat related, but I believe that there will be true unity of faith in Christ before He returns. I had a vision regarding this, which I will share here.

I wrote this on May 14, 2025.

"I experienced a vision last night while I was in bed. Originally, I thought to get out of bed and write it down right then and there, but I decided if it was truly from God, I would remember the details the next day.

The vision I had was beautiful. Allow me to give the vision with no falsehoods or embellishments.

In my vision, I saw the United States from space. I saw what looked like the Holy Spirit filling the US and spreading. The key to this was that there was a true uniting of Christians. Rather than Christians becoming more divided over doctrine, they were becoming united under one banner of faith. It was beautiful. There was no "time frame" for this vision, meaning I have no idea when this is supposed to occur.

Many thoughts went through my head as I saw this. I thought of what the cause for this uniting in faith was based on. The answer to this was that it was a work of the Spirit of God primarily, but also due to persecution against Christians, in a sense forcing them to convene. Other thoughts went through my head, such as what does this mean for Catholic vs Protestant believers? What does this mean for Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox believers? Will this movement stay in the US, or will it spread to other parts of the world? It was a very hopeful vision.

A final thought about the vision is that it lines up with this passage,

Ephesians 4:11-13
"And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness."

The key to this is the word "until." What this means is that there will not be unity until "we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son," which clearly has not happened yet. Therefore, at some point, what I saw in my vision will come true, and all Christians will be united in one faith. This is a work of God, not something humans can orchestrate.

I pray this is an encouragement to those who, like me, strive towards unity at this present time."