Mental Illness My Butt | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

Mental Illness My Butt

A man was testifying in court, and in cross-examining the lawyer asked them if it was true they had been to a psychiatrist in the past year. His words automatically became useless.

It is sad that it is the stigma of the words mental illness prevent people from seeking help.
Yes, and it can affect your future negatively.

I prefer to think about mental health rather than mental illness, because it emphasises that there is a spectrum of possibilities, just as there is for physical health. For example, I haven't got too much exercise during the lockdowns and I'm a bit unfit, so to that extent I'm not completely healthy, but I'm not ill. I think it's the same with mental health - there are a range of states I can be in that are not completely healthy, but I'm not ill.
You have hit a lot of this right on the head. Years before most of you were born, there were uncles and aunts, older friends, preachers, grandparents, and such that would offer to take you fishing. My cousin did this for me. We talked a lot on an island during a weekend. He told me to just change the channel. Here we are thirty some years later and I still remember how he repeated that over and over. He pointed to the healthy things in life. He said to just think about something else. Where we were at, it would be so easy to adjust. I may have to forgot about where I am and what I am doing, but I learned to change the channel. Why dwell on the ugly, when one can experience life in the outdoors?

I think words can kill. I feel we should exhaust every other possibility before giving up and saying someone is mentally ill. They are people, too. We are people, too.
 
A man was testifying in court, and in cross-examining the lawyer asked them if it was true they had been to a psychiatrist in the past year. His words automatically became useless.


Yes, and it can affect your future negatively.


You have hit a lot of this right on the head. Years before most of you were born, there were uncles and aunts, older friends, preachers, grandparents, and such that would offer to take you fishing. My cousin did this for me. We talked a lot on an island during a weekend. He told me to just change the channel. Here we are thirty some years later and I still remember how he repeated that over and over. He pointed to the healthy things in life. He said to just think about something else. Where we were at, it would be so easy to adjust. I may have to forgot about where I am and what I am doing, but I learned to change the channel. Why dwell on the ugly, when one can experience life in the outdoors?

I think words can kill. I feel we should exhaust every other possibility before giving up and saying someone is mentally ill. They are people, too. We are people, too.
I don't know man, when somebody tells you they're staying with their physically abusive boyfriend who strangled them when they're 6 months pregnant because she abused him in a past life and this is karma and she tells you an elaborate story about that past life and truly believes it... That's mental illness.

When your friend jumps off a roof and breaks both of his arms because he's in an argument with a girlfriend about the fact that he can fly and he's going to prove it... That's mental illness

When your great aunt comes home and finds their husband is cheating and stabs him to death in a fit of rage, and then tries to kill herself... That's mental illness.

I happen to have a very mentally ill family and know a lot of mentally ill friends. THERE IS something going on in their head that's wrong and you can't talk them out of their delusions and beliefs. It is really dangerous to ignore and not treat these things medically, for both the person who has a mental illness and the people around them.

I just find it really hard to buy your argument when I've had experiences with so many extremely mentally ill people. Maybe you haven't. Some people are really really really not living in the same world and you can't have a fishing conversation with them to change their perspective.
 
I agree. There are many degrees of almost everything we are talking about. I allowed a guy live in my spare bedroom trying to help him. I asked him to leave immediately when he and a friend went out drinking. They made it to my backyard. My girl friend came inside and said he raped her while she was passed out. So sad. He got a job with the guys working in the pipes under my house so he could stay near me. He lived there. I called his family.
 
  • Like
Reactions: John K and slant
I agree. There are many degrees of almost everything we are talking about. I allowed a guy live in my spare bedroom trying to help him. I asked him to leave immediately when he and a friend went out drinking. They made it to my backyard. My girl friend came inside and said he raped her while she was passed out. So sad. He got a job with the guys working in the pipes under my house so he could stay near me. He lived there. I called his family.
Yeah so I think I get your point; that maybe somebody has more mild mental disorder that they can work on with maybe cognitive behavioral therapy (basically just changing your thoughts) and having a new perspective.

I agree.

I just think that sometimes this mindset gets applied to people who are severely mentally ill to tell them they're not trying hard enough and that they're faking it for attention, just think differently, etc.

Most people who can just "change their thoughts" probably are not really suffering from an organic brain mental disorder. And maybe that's over diagnosed, but again, we can't really tell where anybody is in life.

I do have a tendency to see people's behavior and categorize them as mentally ill pretty quickly but that's based on my own history. I've seen it all. I know what certain words and behavior mean in terms of what's going on in somebody's head. I would rather be wrong than right in terms of getting mixed up with somebody who is not right in the head and potentially dangerous to themselves or others. Maybe this is just because I'm a woman and more at risk when it comes to these things.

I think I agree with you though, it's just scary because some people really are mentally ill and we can't pretend they aren't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: just me and John K
I just think that sometimes this mindset gets applied to people who are severely mentally ill to tell them they're not trying hard enough and that they're faking it for attention, just think differently, etc.
This is a real problem. Mostly it’s because many people lack a real insight into what mental illness is and what it feels like, so they have no true empathy. It doesn’t help that words in common use, like depression or anxiety, have such a wide range of meanings. Anybody can feel a bit depressed or anxious about something, but those are like candles to the raging furnace of the horrible illnesses that carry the same adjectives.

Sometimes you get people trying to understand in unhelpful ways by assuming they know what the problem is. She’s ‘on the change’ is an example of this, and comes over as a kind of devaluation of the real situation. Mostly I think people behave in these ways because they have a fear of mental illness, and at the same time they do want to help, and feel sorry for the sufferer. I saw this very clearly with close family who suffered from dementia, as well as with my wife’s illness.

There’s a visceral fear of these illnesses that compels people to come up with silly rationalisations that are more to do with the fear than anything else. I have sheer admiration for the nursing home staff who took care of my father during the late stages of dementia - they saw him clearly, rather than seeing their own fear reflected in him.
 
This is a real problem. Mostly it’s because many people lack a real insight into what mental illness is and what it feels like, so they have no true empathy. It doesn’t help that words in common use, like depression or anxiety, have such a wide range of meanings. Anybody can feel a bit depressed or anxious about something, but those are like candles to the raging furnace of the horrible illnesses that carry the same adjectives.

Sometimes you get people trying to understand in unhelpful ways by assuming they know what the problem is. She’s ‘on the change’ is an example of this, and comes over as a kind of devaluation of the real situation. Mostly I think people behave in these ways because they have a fear of mental illness, and at the same time they do want to help, and feel sorry for the sufferer. I saw this very clearly with close family who suffered from dementia, as well as with my wife’s illness.

There’s a visceral fear of these illnesses that compels people to come up with silly rationalisations that are more to do with the fear than anything else. I have sheer admiration for the nursing home staff who took care of my father during the late stages of dementia - they saw him clearly, rather than seeing their own fear reflected in him.
Oh yeah... I really feel that. Especially people who have been close to mental illness like a partner or spouse or whatever and they were the "normal one" which usually means the squeaky wheel gets the oil and they are neglected or burdened with too much responsibility. That can also create a type of resentment but it's also fear based because they try to be invulnerable to prove they aren't the same as "those types".
Reminds me of this:

 
Oh yeah... I really feel that. Especially people who have been close to mental illness like a partner or spouse or whatever and they were the "normal one" which usually means the squeaky wheel gets the oil and they are neglected or burdened with too much responsibility. That can also create a type of resentment but it's also fear based because they try to be invulnerable to prove they aren't the same as "those types".
Reminds me of this:

This goes deeper too and I think you have explored the problem in your blog. If you are the primary carer for someone close to you over a long period of time, then you adapt your life around it. A big problem is that you can become invested in and dependent on the status quo. This can mean that you feel threatened if they become more seriously ill, and, even more damagingly, if they start to get better. It takes the judgement of Solomon to avoid this pitfall for some of us.

The video is spot on, in a way, because carers can be put under very great stress by the other’s condition and it searches out all your weaknesses and shadow. It helps to talk about it with sympathetic listeners, but then there’s the great risk that it becomes all about you instead of the person who is ill. There is a great risk too of becoming seriously mentally and physically ill yourself - caring for someone who can’t return it can be like pouring love down a bottomless well, or like trying to water the Sahara Desert with a cup of tears and you can run dry yourself.

The darker side of all this is when someone tries to increase their own shaky sense of self worth at the expense of someone who is ill. Like with put downs or making fun of them with others.

But I’d better stop there or I’ll run the thread away from its main focus!
 
But I’d better stop there or I’ll run the thread away from its main focus!

Ramble on. We can cross lines and draw circles.

How many people here have depression? I feel it wrong to label them on their medical records as having a mental illness. Levels or degrees separate the mentally ill. The term is used too broadly and it stays on your record forever. Now, if it is caused by acute pain, then it is a condition with a cause.

I feel the entire study to be closer to home at Harvard, but a lot of work needs to be done.

I almost feel someone was compiling an outline, and left out too much.
 
  • Like
Reactions: John K and slant
Ramble on. We can cross lines and draw circles.

How many people here have depression? I feel it wrong to label them on their medical records as having a mental illness. Levels or degrees separate the mentally ill. The term is used too broadly and it stays on your record forever. Now, if it is caused by acute pain, then it is a condition with a cause.

I feel the entire study to be closer to home at Harvard, but a lot of work needs to be done.

I almost feel someone was compiling an outline, and left out too much.
I get you. There are degrees of mental illness. But I think what the younger generation is trying to do is go destigmatize mental illness by embracing the terms openly. I see how it can be a slippery slope but I also think it's positive that people are able to openly discuss it without being seen as a freak. In other words, I think what you are describing is less and less as the years go by. In the 1950s women were commonly diagnosed with "hysteria" and given sedatives and uh *cough* other treatments. That pretty much never happens anymore. It is getting better.
 
maxresdefault.jpg


There is a lot of difference; TOO MUCH DIFFERENCE, between a 1 and a 9. To label them both with similar words is wrong.
 
  • Like
Reactions: John K and slant
So as much as we don't want to encourage learned helplessness it's also frustrating to hear people imply that identifying your mental illness is what's causing it or worsening it. Mental illness is not as concrete and measurable as say diabetes so it is not treated the same but their comparable.

If somebody has type 2 diabetes you don't tell them that identifying as a diabetic and them talking about the reason why they can't eat high sugar foods being because of their condition is somehow worsening their condition. We are trying to find language to describe what's already happening so that we can figure out solutions and explain what's going on to others.

I'm not sure that we are even talking about the same thing. What I want to know, based on some of the accounts of mental illness you've provided, is whether the concept of mental illness is even applicable in most cases. If diabetes is in any way commensurable with mental illness, one has to ask where is component that makes an illness mental. In severe ailments like dementia, there is a remarkable deterioration of brain matter - if there exists some reference of mental health in it, then we may as well call a delirious patient with a fever mentally ill; yet they are both changes induced by a material disorder. My problem is that labeling people as mentally ill is more of a social game than anything else, and if there truly exists something like a mental illness, it will not be cured by lying down and calling for a doctor.

Even if it's a slippery slope, if a wife killing her husband and subsequently herself after finding out about his infidelity is good enough to be a mental illness today, then the very notions of rage and grief may be good enough to call mental illnesses tomorrow. We can denounce the judgment of her action, but to say that it's a result of mental illness is an attack on humanity. Jumping off of a building in a display of faith is equally questionable, but the fact that it abounds in mental vigor is not questionable. If we can ever call someone mentally ill, it will be by their chronic passivity, not violent activity.

If actions like murder and suicide can be attributed to material phenomena, then morality is dead. It takes away that one sacred thing that it must adhere to - the human will, and the responsibility it carries. And whatever human will is, it is not just a speculation; it is a fact that placebo effect is not a mere illusion. If matter can effect a change in mind, mind can effect a change in matter. Nobody who has been depressed can tell me that after taking their dose of SSRI's, they awaken to a new world full of purpose and meaning the next day. It takes something more conscious to banish depression it at its core. What is mental in any illness is its philosophy. If there is a sudden influx of depression cases in 21st century, it's not because Western brains have gratuitously threw their chemistry into disarray; it's because Western societies threw themselves into a spiritual disarray.

I understand that propagation of mental health and its corollaries is intended to help people. But if all it takes to cast a shadow of mental illness over someone is that they don't act correspondingly to some vague, poorly calibrated notion of what it means to be mentally healthy, then everybody needs help everywhere, all the time. This may as well be true, but we need not to label it under new scientific doctrines and treat it in a hospital when there already is a doctrine that has dealt with this eons ago - it's called original sin.

In case it isn't clear, here's a disclaimer: I am not saying that health institutions should stop providing material treatment. I am saying that if we ever declare mental health as something materially determined, as something that can be briefly observed by a physician so he can say "yes, clearly your mind is ill", we are doomed. Because health of the mind can never be empirically or logically proven; if anything, it's proven by a hefty dose of irrationality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: just me
It is unfortunate that mental illness is not treated as any illness is. Heart disease, for example. The shame and guilt society places on it prevent appropriate treatment. And it is not something that your family doctor should treat...it is so frustrating to see the way it is is hidden and brushed under the rug.
 
  • Like
Reactions: slant
If actions like murder and suicide can be attributed to material phenomena, then morality is dead. It takes away that one sacred thing that it must adhere to - the human will, and the responsibility it carries. And whatever human will is, it is not just a speculation; it is a fact that placebo effect is not a mere illusion. If matter can effect a change in mind, mind can effect a change in matter. Nobody who has been depressed can tell me that after taking their dose of SSRI's, they awaken to a new world full of purpose and meaning the next day.
not true. For me taking antidepressants and being properly medicated was like seeing in black and white to all of the sudden seeing in color. It was extremely dramatic and I didn't change anything else. It enabled me to make other important changes in my life for the better but without my medication I become nonfunctional.

Maybe you don't understand mental illness because you have never experienced it but it's definitely beyond philosophy and a mindset.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sidis Coruscatis
not true. For me taking antidepressants and being properly medicated was like seeing in black and white to all of the sudden seeing in color. It was extremely dramatic and I didn't change anything else. It enabled me to make other important changes in my life for the better but without my medication I become nonfunctional.

Maybe you don't understand mental illness because you have never experienced it but it's definitely beyond philosophy and a mindset.

Yes, I have. But I have misjudged myself in the past. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you understand the full extent of what I was trying to say either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: just me and slant
Yes, I have. But I have misjudged myself in the past. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you understand the full extent of what I was trying to say either.
I suppose we're at an impasse so we'll agree to disagree
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sidis Coruscatis
If actions like murder and suicide can be attributed to material phenomena, then morality is dead

I sometimes feel that, in and of itself, may be the very reason behind all this. "Getting rid of morals and ethics."

I delighted in reading your post.
 
Meds didn't ever feel they were helping me with depression. Sleep is the only thing that helps me. Remember, I have chronic pain.

Let us say a woman is driving home from church one night and a child runs out in front of her. She hits the child and the child dies. No amount of medicine will ever permanently take away bouts of depression and grief. She is healthy.

Let's say a man charged with multiple heinous crimes does the same thing and kills the child. He forgets about it almost immediately. Saying the woman has a mental illness is all wrong. It's called compassion. The man obviously has none.

to say that it's a result of mental illness is an attack on humanity.
My very feelings. It is not a mental illness to have a heart.