Mental Illness My Butt | INFJ Forum

Mental Illness My Butt

just me

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Feb 8, 2009
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https://www.sleepfoundation.org/mental-health
https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/diseases/depression-anxiety.html
https://www.webmd.com/depression/features/anxiety-depression-mix
https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/the-pain-anxiety-depression-connection

From the last one: " Researchers once thought the relationship between pain, anxiety, and depression resulted mainly from psychological rather than biological factors. Chronic pain is depressing, and likewise major depression may feel physically painful. But as researchers have learned more about how the brain works, and how the nervous system interacts with other parts of the body, they have discovered that pain shares some biological mechanisms with anxiety and depression."

I just typed a half hour and it is all gone. If staff knows how to retrieve it, please do. I'm tired.
 
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Chronic pain can cause insomnia, depression, and anxiety and a lot are not considered mental illnesses. They are a result of pain and the central nervous system. In other words: biological.

If they are results of something, why call them mental illnesses? They are not, if caused by chronic pain. Seems to me most everything is a result of something.

Mental illness, to me? I consider a pedophile as having mental illness. I consider serial killers as having mental disorders.
 
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https://www.sleepfoundation.org/mental-health
https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/diseases/depression-anxiety.html
https://www.webmd.com/depression/features/anxiety-depression-mix
https://www.health.harvard.edu/healthbeat/the-pain-anxiety-depression-connection

From the last one: " Researchers once thought the relationship between pain, anxiety, and depression resulted mainly from psychological rather than biological factors. Chronic pain is depressing, and likewise major depression may feel physically painful. But as researchers have learned more about how the brain works, and how the nervous system interacts with other parts of the body, they have discovered that pain shares some biological mechanisms with anxiety and depression."

I just typed a half hour and it is all gone. If staff knows how to retrieve it, please do. I'm tired.

Hi just me,

I'm sorry that you lost a long post. I know how frustrating that is.

As it is though I'm not quite sure what point you are making here exactly.

Is your argument that anxiety and depression don't really exist and are the result of not sleeping well or physical pain?
 
Sorry you lost your post, make sure to hit Save Draft periodically when writing longer material
Save Draft.JPG
 
Depression is a state of mind. Chronic depression that simply never ever goes away may be an illness.
Thank you guys. I'll remember to save draft.
 
My argument is all depression, anxiety, and insomnia is not mental illness, and it is rude to call it as such. For example, chronic pain can be a cause. Got to go to work.
 
I just typed a half hour and it is all gone. If staff knows how to retrieve it, please do. I'm tired.
I've looked through the version history of your post and this is all that was saved:




So I'm afraid your long post is gone. I'm sorry.
 
My argument is all depression, anxiety, and insomnia is not mental illness, and it is rude to call it as such. For example, chronic pain can be a cause. Got to go to work.
If you have time to expand on this when you get back from work that would be great because I am interested in having this discussion with you. I would say I might disagree with what you have to say but I don't have enough information because I think I might also partly agree.
 
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From experience, watching a challenged child grow up in school can be almost heartbreaking. Watching other people that do not understand them start picking on them is pretty sorry. Watching someone a tad smarter with a bit more understanding shows how many really smart kids develop almost alone. We have kids that start trying to watch over the weak ones. We have kids that never quite fit in with any group. We have bullies. We have beautiful, smart, outgoing kids. We have some who cannot stand even being there. At a young age, we experience differences in personalities. We also notice some developing different personalities from ways they are treated by the esprit de corps.

From experience, I have watched people think they are so much better than everyone else. Yet, there are others that stand in the background and are mostly heard from when someone is being mistreated. A child can experience school and learn depression. A child can watch the bullies and become anxious. While some may be born with specific traits, I have watched them change or adapt to their environment. School is one of the first places I have seen children act or live a life created mostly by their parents. I see children mistreated act so differently. One can become timid. One can stand up to it all and be rebellious while taking the parents' mistreatments. I have seen children become like products of their environments, while others
get attitudes and live in anger. Parents really have a lot of responsibilities. Some kids don't have parents. I can go on and on.

To ask a child 100 questions, leading to many discussions, may help a child. It can also cause a child to rebel. They might have " been to a psychiatrist" on their record.

For them to be picked on, laughed at, bullied, and such because they are different, they may be labeled as mentally ill and that is so unfair to me. Their parents start asking their child, "Why can't you be like everyone else?". The nut doesn't fall far from the tree. They punish their child. The child becomes timid or fights back. Whatever they do, it is called mental illness. So unfair.

As time permits, we can grow up in this conversation. We'll leave it as a child right now.
 
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From experience, watching a challenged child grow up in school can be almost heartbreaking. Watching other people that do not understand them start picking on them is pretty sorry. Watching someone a tad smarter with a bit more understanding shows how many really smart kids develop almost alone. We have kids that start trying to watch over the weak ones. We have kids that never quite fit in with any group. We have bullies. We have beautiful, smart, outgoing kids. We have some who cannot stand even being there. At a young age, we experience differences in personalities. We also notice some developing different personalities from ways they are treated by the esprit de corps.

From experience, I have watched people think they are so much better than everyone else. Yet, there are others that stand in the background and are mostly heard from when someone is being mistreated. A child can experience school and learn depression. A child can watch the bullies and become anxious. While some may be born with specific traits, I have watched them change or adapt to their environment. School is one of the first places I have seen children act or live a life created mostly by their parents. I see children mistreated act so differently. One can become timid. One can stand up to it all and be rebellious while taking the parents' mistreatments. I have seen children become like products of their environments, while others
get attitudes and live in anger. Parents really have a lot of responsibilities. Some kids don't have parents. I can go on and on.

To ask a child 100 questions, leading to many discussions, may help a child. It can also cause a child to rebel. They might have " been to a psychiatrist" on their record.

For them to be picked on, laughed at, bullied, and such because they are different, they may be labeled as mentally ill and that is so unfair to me. Their parents start asking their child, "Why can't you be like everyone else?". The nut doesn't fall far from the tree. They punish their child. The child becomes timid or fights back. Whatever they do, it is called mental illness. So unfair.

As time permits, we can grow up in this conversation. We'll leave it as a child right now.
I want to challenge you with this article and see what you think: https://www.sideeffectspublicmedia.org/post/childhood-trauma-leads-brains-wired-fear

Essentially, if children have experience abuse or extreme bullying it can actually rewire their brain to function in a way that people who have not experienced these things would not have.

So while they may have been born developmentally normal, maybe even gifted and that's why they got picked on because they were different, the trauma of living in fear causes different development of the brain as well as things like the adrenal gland.

If you follow that- this may be why medications are helpful to people who have been though childhood abuse. Some people who have had less severe trauma or for a shorter period of time might be able to "work through it".

But if the abuse was intense enough over a long period of time the brain is actually changed. It adapts to function in that dangerous environment and when the abuse stops the brain still responds to everything as if it's abuse. It has no other way.

What are your thoughts on that?
 
Work early tomorrow. You guys enjoy til I can get back. This is of the utmost importance to me. That is the argument I am looking for. I do not think it fair to label someone because of their past. I do not want everyone who has had any king of childhood abuse to have an excuse for their actions. Some people walk through it in different ways. They are all different.

Let me ask you something. In this subject, if a person needs drugs do you think their wires are crossed?
 
Work early tomorrow. You guys enjoy til I can get back. This is of the utmost importance to me. That is the argument I am looking for. I do not think it fair to label someone because of their past. I do not want everyone who has had any king of childhood abuse to have an excuse for their actions. Some people walk through it in different ways. They are all different.

Let me ask you something. In this subject, if a person needs drugs do you think their wires are crossed?
Well if you mean do I want to stigmatize them for needing drugs, no. I think that we may agree on things but are just phrasing it differently. I might understand what you mean here.

Do you mean:

Yes, what someone went through as a child or if they had trauma, it might change them but we shouldn't judge them for being the way they are because it isn't their fault? That some people go through things that make them different but we don't have to make it worse by villainizing them for it?

If that's what you mean I totally agree. People with mental health issues are victims of their condition; it is not who they are. Their past is also not who they are and we have to understand and accept people.
 
Not what I meant. Can A person's past change their personality type? If so, why does that make them mentally ill? People ADAPT.
A Dad asked his son if he could pass him anything at the supper table. His son son, "Yeah, pass me some of those f-ing grits." The dad knocked his son off of his leaning chair. After everything settled down, the Dad asked his other son if he could pass him anything, He said, "I sure as H%LL don't want any of those f-ing grits."

One abuse can change almost everyone differently. The abuse is an action. The way someone deals with it is a reaction. Some kids just don't get it, either. The same abuse does not get the same results. We are wrong to label people as mentally ill because they found a way to cope with abuse. Now, maybe if they were to kill and dismember their father...

Like it or not, we all go through changes we don't like or want. Allow a child to live their life exactly as they want, and that would cause problems. Change is part of growing up and learning to adapt in this world. We watch and learn. My Mother was ironing and I was watching when the phone rang. She sat the iron up quickly dashed for the phone, and said something like, "Don't touch that iron, son; it's hot." In five seconds, I fully understood. I just had to know. I learned a lesson from being curious. It didn't change my brain, even with all that pain.

What about sorrow? Sorrow is better than laughter, for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made stronger. Blessed are the meek. What about the woman that gave a penny to the offering? She gave more than all the rest, because that was all she had. Mentally ill? Some people "see" and "hear" things others do not hear. Be careful who you call crazy.

I think we live in a world where it has become too easy for a doctor to label someone something because they just don't get it. Send them to another type doctor. This criteria should be looked over again and again very cautiously. You wouldn't want a tornado touching down in your back yard doing its damage, then lifting away to cause no harm anywhere else?
 
Not what I meant. Can A person's past change their personality type? If so, why does that make them mentally ill? People ADAPT.
A Dad asked his son if he could pass him anything at the supper table. His son son, "Yeah, pass me some of those f-ing grits." The dad knocked his son off of his leaning chair. After everything settled down, the Dad asked his other son if he could pass him anything, He said, "I sure as H%LL don't want any of those f-ing grits."

One abuse can change almost everyone differently. The abuse is an action. The way someone deals with it is a reaction. Some kids just don't get it, either. The same abuse does not get the same results. We are wrong to label people as mentally ill because they found a way to cope with abuse. Now, maybe if they were to kill and dismember their father...

Like it or not, we all go through changes we don't like or want. Allow a child to live their life exactly as they want, and that would cause problems. Change is part of growing up and learning to adapt in this world. We watch and learn. My Mother was ironing and I was watching when the phone rang. She sat the iron up quickly dashed for the phone, and said something like, "Don't touch that iron, son; it's hot." In five seconds, I fully understood. I just had to know. I learned a lesson from being curious. It didn't change my brain, even with all that pain.

What about sorrow? Sorrow is better than laughter, for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made stronger. Blessed are the meek. What about the woman that gave a penny to the offering? She gave more than all the rest, because that was all she had. Mentally ill? Some people "see" and "hear" things others do not hear. Be careful who you call crazy.

I think we live in a world where it has become too easy for a doctor to label someone something because they just don't get it. Send them to another type doctor. This criteria should be looked over again and again very cautiously. You wouldn't want a tornado touching down in your back yard doing its damage, then lifting away to cause no harm anywhere else?
Well I mean the idea behind mental illness is that you cannot function in the world, that you have difficulty doing basic tasks or have distorted perception.

In other words, the adaptations you made during childhood abuse might have worked back then and been healthy given your circumstances, but removed from the trauma that behavior is now maladaptive because it makes your life more difficult instead of helping you.

For example, I had an emotionally abusive caretaker and I learned to do and say whatever they wanted to make them happy. Well, in my adult life that has not been healthy behavior. Even though I actively try to change my behavior I'm permanently scarred by what happened to me. I am always worried about "being too loud" even in my own home and get worried that my neighbors will try to get me evicted because I'm "too loud" if eating something crunchy past 10pm because my mom had fucking superhearing and would go ballistic if you were even breathing too loudly.

This is called "anxiety"and it prevents me from doing what I need to do at times. I don't see why it's wrong to call it a mental disorder because it is. My brain overreacts to things because it was trained to do so. I don't see the issue here.
 
If your text disappears, go to another page, then hit back, to get you where you were typing, then hit refresh.

I've resuscitated many posts that way.
 
@just me some thoughts to explore this topic.

I prefer to think about mental health rather than mental illness, because it emphasises that there is a spectrum of possibilities, just as there is for physical health. For example, I haven't got too much exercise during the lockdowns and I'm a bit unfit, so to that extent I'm not completely healthy, but I'm not ill. I think it's the same with mental health - there are a range of states I can be in that are not completely healthy, but I'm not ill.

Now as we move along the spectrum from more health to less healthy mental states, there comes a point where someone can't function properly. It's pretty fuzzy where this point lies, but right down the far end it's obvious because there are people who are delusional, dangerous and violent, or people who can't take care of themselves and are a danger to themselves. All these extreme problems are definitely mental illnesses.

The point on the spectrum where we start to talk about someone being mentally ill is very interesting. By what yardstick do we measure that? Is it when they can't function properly in society? But that's a real minefield because different societies have different yardsticks. The Soviets were notorious for treating people who disagreed with communism as mentally ill, for example, and there's something similar apparently going on more subtly in China today. We'd probably think of most of these people as heroesand champions of freedom in the West. We get the same in small social groups - how many introverted children have been unfairly treated as bordering on mental illness by their very extraverted families? Being different from the prevailing social culture around you can be very stressful, even as an adult, and that can certainly lead to poor mental health, and this aggravates the social disconnect still further. As @slant says, when that social disconnect happens in childhood we adapt in ways that become hard-wired - in adulthood, we can't just unwire these adaptations and it causes a lot of mental distress. At the very least such people are mental unhealthy even when they aren't ill with it. The same problem can come about through trauma as well, and there are many other causes.

In the end I suspect that there is always a relationship between the physical and the mental when looking at human condition. For example ... the example I gave above where a child is temperamentally different from their family and school fellows, and is a social misfit - and becomes mentally unhealthy as a result. Or a child is abused by a relative and has a lifelong trauma buried deep. Or an elderly person gets arthritis and becomes depressed because of the pain, and their inability to do the things they enjoy. I suspect that there are physical causes related to all mental health problems, some of them caused by hidden chemical imbalances perhaps as seems to be the case with my wife. It goes in circles too, because a lack of mental health leads very often to deteriorating physical health in all sorts of ways and there is a destructive cycle on both fronts for many folks.

I don't think that people who are simply mentally unhealthy are helped by being labelled mentally ill, any more than someone physically very unfit, or sporting a strained shoulder, should be labelled physically ill. In my experience there are significant risks in a person being told they have a named mental illness because the naming can conjure a demon - that demon binds itself all to often to someone's identity like a vampire and eventually they can't get rid of it without feeling a loss of their identity. It's hard to let go of the idea that 'I am a depressive', or 'I am neurotic' etc once this has happened because we have invested so much into it. It's necessary for medics to use these terms because they relate to treatments and provide continuity of care through patient records - but they come with significant risks to patients in my opinion because they are so hard to disengage from once we have bound ourselves to them.
 
It is sad that it is the stigma of the words mental illness prevent people from seeking help. There are many causes of mental illness, brain chemistry, trauma, substance abuse to name a few. You do not have to be unable to function to have some mental illness. For instance, I have ptsd..but I function in the world. I do not require medication, yet I have the condition.
Please do not get hung up on words...
 
In my experience there are significant risks in a person being told they have a named mental illness because the naming can conjure a demon - that demon binds itself all to often to someone's identity like a vampire and eventually they can't get rid of it without feeling a loss of their identity.

I came across certain posts on reddit where people desired to be diagnosed in order to ratify their struggles. While I can relate somewhat, it's the eagerness put into it that worries me - it's the undercurrent of resignation in the statement.

If one believes that they are indisposed in some way, a diagnosis can indicate the tools to improve the condition, but there is nothing stopping the individual from seeking avenues of recovery pre-diagnosis. I think there's a tangible danger in that sort of earnest willingness to be identified with an illness because it separates the individual from their responsibility. Something like "I am feeling anxious and have been neglecting my duties" can easily become "I am neglecting my duties because I'm mentally ill". Seeking professional validation in this case may be a way to justify their failure to make a difference and be seated even deeper into the belief that everything is really just the work of a cruel universe and they never had a chance.
 
I came across certain posts on reddit where people desired to be diagnosed in order to ratify their struggles. While I can relate somewhat, it's the eagerness put into it that worries me - it's the undercurrent of resignation in the statement.

If one believes that they are indisposed in some way, a diagnosis can indicate the tools to improve the condition, but there is nothing stopping the individual from seeking avenues of recovery pre-diagnosis. I think there's a tangible danger in that sort of earnest willingness to be identified with an illness because it separates the individual from their responsibility. Something like "I am feeling anxious and have been neglecting my duties" can easily become "I am neglecting my duties because I'm mentally ill". Seeking professional validation in this case may be a way to justify their failure to make a difference and be seated even deeper into the belief that everything is really just the work of a cruel universe and they never had a chance.
Common practice in mental health communities is to say:

"I have anxiety but am not my anxiety", and so on.

Generally speaking the idea is to put division between you and the illness in the sense that it's not part of your identity.

I can see the concerns people have about that and it's valid, at the same time, most people I know who suffer from mental illness wish they didn't. They wish they were normal and that they weren't going through what they were going through. It's a tough topic to skirt because there are a lot of people who would insist that people are just "making it up" and that they ought to just "get over it". Thats not helpful.

But as much as someone who has mental illness wants to separate their identity from it, that's ultimately impossible, especially when the mental illness/trauma has become organic and noticeable differences can be seen in the brain. It's almost sort of cruel to tell those people not to use their mental illness as a way to justify their actions because if the impairment to the brain is drastic enough it may not be possible for this person to react in the same manner as neurotypical people.

So as much as we don't want to encourage learned helplessness it's also frustrating to hear people imply that identifying your mental illness is what's causing it or worsening it. Mental illness is not as concrete and measurable as say diabetes so it is not treated the same but their comparable.

If somebody has type 2 diabetes you don't tell them that identifying as a diabetic and them talking about the reason why they can't eat high sugar foods being because of their condition is somehow worsening their condition. We are trying to find language to describe what's already happening so that we can figure out solutions and explain what's going on to others.
 
Common practice in mental health communities is to say:

"I have anxiety but am not my anxiety", and so on.

Generally speaking the idea is to put division between you and the illness in the sense that it's not part of your identity.
The reason I picked this issue out is because it can be very much bound up with an involuntary sense of utter self-worthlessness. The combination of illness together with this sort of self-judgement are like an evil spell that sets a very high hill to climb to get out of the pit. These aren't matters of choice because anyone who's ill enough has little choice in the matter on a day to day basis, but if they can avoid that punishing feeling they aren't a proper human being it makes the road to recovery easier and more likely to be successful. It depends where someone is on that mental health spectrum that determines how much of a risk this problem can be. My wife has been in hospital four times over the last 40 years for up to several months each time with severe anxiety and with severe somatic complications - the times I was most frightened for her safety was when she took her knowledge of her condition and judged herself as not a proper human being, one without hope. She's on an enormous cocktail of drugs to keep her stable and has been for ages. Thankfully, she's on an even keel at the moment with the stuff she has to take, but it has some unpleasant side effects. It's taken me all my strength sometimes to pull her back from the edge and help her to value herself.

The medics who treated her were very clear that using the language they used amongst themselves usually harmed their patients rather than helping them. That's because of what I've already said, but there were other reasons too - one is that the medics told us there is no hard edged boundary around such mental illness diagnoses and for many folks they approximate the truth rather than encapsulating it. Similarly, different people with the same conditions respond differently to the textbook treatments, so the information could be very misleading. I can confirm this from our own experience because my wife is highly resistant to most modern drugs for her condition - stuff that would knock me out for a week, and are used very successfully in the main, have no effect whatsoever on her. They were also concerned that severely ill people obsessed about it and made their anxiety or depression even worse by researching it.

Obviously, these issues won't be the same with someone who is less severely affected by mental illness, but once you are ill enough that your rational judgement is compromised then I've learned the hard way that too much identification with your condition can actually be lethal.