Low Self esteem and the effect it has on relationships...

[blueflame]

Negative in more ways than one, but a person with no or low self esteem doesn't set boundaries because they cease to acknowledge their own value and power in the relationship. They just hand over the keys to someone else and say I hope you don't mess up the room too much. I currently know someone who is like this on a regular basis. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why they chose so many bad mates when they themselves were such a great catch. It wasn't because the mates were bad people, they were simply being themselves, but my friend gave them too much power to do as they please which is not healthy in any relationship because you are responsible for your own happiness and your own life as a whole. Why spend so many years living and cultivating just to let someone mow over it? But to make matters worse, they don't filter out the people who right from the get go have their own issues i.e. the obsessed possessive person, the arrogant egotistical one, the obnoxious one who always thought it was everybody elses fault he was such an a-hole, then there is the bohemian freeloader.

All I am saying is the quality of mates we choose is a direct reflection of how you think about ourselves, even though we don't notice this fact until after a pattern develops. I feel that some people just want to protect themselves from disappointment because of a personal experience in the past that makes them feel like being loved is a privilege, or that it doesn't exist without disfunction.

Anyways I just wanted to share this because some great points about love in general were made in other threads and because we infj's are sensitive and tend to be all or nothing with no gauge when it comes to love.

 

[acd]

Hear hear.

 

[willow]

Negative in more ways than one, but a person with no or low self esteem doesn't set boundaries because they cease to acknowledge their own value and power in the relationship. They just hand over the keys to someone else and say I hope you don't mess up the room too much. I currently know someone who is like this on a regular basis. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why they chose so many bad mates when they themselves were such a great catch. It wasn't because the mates were bad people, they were simply being themselves, but my friend gave them too much power to do as they please which is not healthy in any relationship because you are responsible for your own happiness and your own life as a whole. Why spend so many years living and cultivating just to let someone mow over it? But to make matters worse, they don't filter out the people who right from the get go have their own issues i.e. the obsessed possessive person, the arrogant egotistical one, the obnoxious one who always thought it was everybody elses fault he was such an a-hole, then there is the bohemian freeloader.

All I am saying is the quality of mates we choose is a direct reflection of how you think about ourselves, even though we don't notice this fact until after a pattern develops. I feel that some people just want to protect themselves from disappointment because of a personal experience in the past that makes them feel like being loved is a privilege, or that it doesn't exist without disfunction.

Anyways I just wanted to share this because some great points about love in general were made in other threads and because we infj's are sensitive and tend to be all or nothing with no gauge when it comes to love.

I agree with you that people who select bad relationships have poorly defined boundaries. I don't agree with the self-esteem position. Instead, I think these people have not carefully selected a belief system which aids them in evaluating their place in the world. Quite frankly, I associate high self-esteem with vanity and pride. Telling yourself that you are a wonderful person and that you are this positive thing or that positive thing does not make it true. It's a form of deception. Exactly, what does one measure self-esteem against? Your own opinion? Yes that's really reliable. I put my full faith in it. No, I don't think so. Not for me.

 

[grapefruit]

I agree with you that people who select bad relationships have poorly defined boundaries. I don't agree with the self-esteem position. Instead, I think these people have not carefully selected a belief system which aids them in evaluating their place in the world. Quite frankly, I associate high self-esteem with vanity and pride. Telling yourself that you are a wonderful person and that you are this positive thing or that positive thing does not make it true. It's a form of deception. Exactly, what does one measure self-esteem against? Your own opinion? Yes that's really reliable. I put my full faith in it. No, I don't think so. Not for me.

Self esteem isn't something you measure against something else. A person's self esteem refers to how well he respects himself, and how much confidence he has in his abilities. Even someone who may be perceived to have very few abilities can have high self esteem if he has confidence in himself. Note that this is different than arrogance.

 

[grapefruit]

Tell your friend how you feel. He/she may be offended at first, but will probably get over it because someone with low self esteem would want to keep the friends he/she had at all costs. After your friend has gotten over it, it may take time for him/her to truly accept what you are saying. You can then work on strategies to set boundaries in a gentle yet assertive way. Also, it might be helpful to find your friend someone to go out with who understands what is going on, and who will help this person define his/her own boundaries rather than take advantage. I've had trouble defining my boundaries as well. I never picked friends who would take advantage of me, but I ended up doing things I didn't want to because I was too nervous to confront people. I think I came across as needy because I wanted to please everyone around me, and became frustrated when this meant I could not please myself. When my friends told me that I was too self conscious, I was at first mad because my delusional mind had heard that they thought I shouldn't care how I present myself to others. After a few weeks though, I realized that they were right, so I thought of various situations in which I allowed myself to be disrespected or taken advantage of, and wrote down strategies for setting boundaries in these situations so that when they occurred again I would know what to do. I decided to do what I needed without worrying about the thoughts of others, dispell the thought that I was a burden, and give myself more leeway and respect. Yes I'm still working on it, and I do sometimes have relapses, but I might have never begun to change if my friends hadn't brought my attention to what I was doing.

 

[Sriracha]

All I am saying is the quality of mates we choose is a direct reflection of how you think about ourselves, even though we don't notice this fact until after a pattern develops.

^5

 

[willow]

Self esteem isn't something you measure against something else. A person's self esteem refers to how well he respects himself, and how much confidence he has in his abilities. Even someone who may be perceived to have very few abilities can have high self esteem if he has confidence in himself. Note that this is different than arrogance.

I am well aware of what self-esteem is. I don't buy into it as a concept. Beyond the respect a person should have for all human beings included self, I think it's just a modern excuse for being self-absorbed. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. I think there are many people who instead of having their self-esteem continually improved they could do with a good look at what is wrong with themselves. Perhaps, if kids nowadays were taught to care more about how they treat others than continually working on their self-esteem our societies would be more civil. As to the friend in the OP, they need a code of principles to live by and apply it to friends and self. Those who fall short get the axe.

BTW, what use is it to have few abilities and great confidence in yourself? What is your motivation to improve then? Isn't a person who has great confidence and low abilities overly confident? Aren't the overly confident the same people we call arrogant?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

As much as the whole low-self esteem paired with a narcissist thing bugs me, some people who are under-confidant need their sense of security from someone who is over-confidant.

It is unbalanced, but just about everyone is in some respect or another.

 

[the]

Somehow I have a problem with deeming peoples mates as 'low quality'. Something is just not right with the OP.

 

[blueflame]

For further clarification/explanation:

"Somehow I have a problem with deeming peoples mates as 'low quality'. Something is just not right with the OP." - Hoggle


^ I should have choosen better terms that were less judmental sounding but none the less a person that is not themselves healthy is not relationship material for anyone, especially if it opens up the door for any kind of negelect.

"As much as the whole low-self esteem paired with a narcissist thing bugs me, some people who are under-confidant need their sense of security from someone who is over-confidant." - Flavus

^ The person is actually not over confident he himself is under confident thus trying to not leave wiggle room for her to leave or change her mind. Which I have an issue with because you can't force someone to like you or have anything more than what they are willing to give to you.

"I am well aware of what self-esteem is. I don't buy into it as a concept. Beyond the respect a person should have for all human beings included self, I think it's just a modern excuse for being self-absorbed. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. I think there are many people who instead of having their self-esteem continually improved they could do with a good look at what is wrong with themselves. Perhaps, if kids nowadays were taught to care more about how they treat others than continually working on their self-esteem our societies would be more civil. As to the friend in the OP, they need a code of principles to live by and apply it to friends and self. Those who fall short get the axe. BTW, what use is it to have few abilities and great confidence in yourself? What is your motivation to improve then? Isn't a person who has great confidence and low abilities overly confident? Aren't the overly confident the same people we call arrogant?" - Willow

^Bottom line of what you said...Esteem: you don't buy into it as a concept, you think it was created as an excuse for being self-absorbed, yet you don't have 100% confidence in what you're saying because you don't expect people to agree with you, but you believe/understand some of what is being said because you say people should look at what's wrong with themselves (which is the first step to improving ones own self esteem), in order to create a more civil society. Overly confident and arrogant would be high-esteem on the opposite side of the scale btw.

 

[the]

For further clarification/explanation:

"Somehow I have a problem with deeming peoples mates as 'low quality'. Something is just not right with the OP." - Hoggle


^ I should have choosen better terms that were less judmental sounding but none the less a person that is not themselves healthy is not relationship material for anyone, especially if it opens up the door for any kind of negelect.

Meh, health is relative. Who really is healthy enough to be someone elses partner? How do we determine who is healthy enough in the first place? People like what they like. Some people like what you may call healthy some like what you may call unhealthy. Let them get what they want (or think they want). Life is an adventure.

 

[blueflame]

Not health in terms of physical and nutritional health, health in terms of no behavioral or psychological problems that hinder yours or others daily life and no I don't mean "handicap". Think more in terms of say a sociopath or someone almost predatorial. Although I suppose your signature may have the answer LOL! Just noticed.

 

[Jill Hives]

So then is someone who is mentally "unhealthy" then less deserving of love than someone who is not? I don't necessarily think this is what you were insinuating by the way, it just made me think.

 

[Norton]

In my experience, for people who are "healthy," "self esteem" isn't something one thinks about or is aware of. Lack of self esteem is a burden not shouldered by healthy people. It's irrelevant. It doesn't come up. Maybe concerns about "self esteem" imply too much concentration on one's self--a bit of negative narcissism? Just do what you have to do in life and get on with it. After all, it's only thoughts that are converted into action that really matter in the world.

 

[willow]

In my experience, for people who are "healthy," "self esteem" isn't something one thinks about or is aware of. Lack of self esteem is a burden not shouldered by healthy people. It's irrelevant. It doesn't come up. Maybe concerns about "self esteem" imply too much concentration on one's self--a bit of negative narcissism? Just do what you have to do in life and got on with it. After all, it's only thoughts that are converted into action that really matter in the world.

Good post. Confidence comes from doing things well, gaining new experiences and interacting successfully with others. It does not come from, "I'm a great person" regardless of how slothful, rude, unproductive etc. one is, which is the nonsense promoted by the "self-esteem" proponents. If one is slothful, rude, unproductive, etc. the last thing one needs is more self-esteem. What is needed is a healthy dose of reality. Face up to your failings and improve.

 

[Norton]

Interestingly, one of the traits of criminals is that they have too much self esteem. There is something to be said for being realistic about oneself, knowing one's strengths and limitations, and, above all, being humble.

 

[blueflame]

The way some people interpret the thread I think they are seeing it more as a character assasination attempt. The actual discussion is that everyone is deserving of love or at least a shot at it, but it is the sense of entitlement that is so disagreeable to me. So Jim Hives brought up an interesting point about whether people who are unhealthy are deserving of love or not the answer would be: yes they are deserving of love but love is something to be given freely you yourself cannot have the attitude that you are entitled to it and you are going to force someone to be in a relationship with you, and control the relationship to suit your ideals. Self esteem is simply a word to describe a concept of one's awareness and value of self. It is not a fact based thing that is tangible, seen, or heard thus good or bad evaluation....no one is inherently aware of it not just healthy or unhealthy people. so my mere bring up self esteem is my evaluation of my friends determination of their own value on an unconscience level. Yes I know it is confusing at times but I like aspects of sociology and psychology, and although some of it is shall we say ridiculous poppycock, everything we say and do we say and do for a reason. Not knowing the reason doesn't mean that there simply isn't one or that the possible answer is a threat. After all most of those theories came about after watching and actually asking people a series of questions that related certain behaviors to thought patterns.

It is actually kind of interesting and funny because when I posted this thread I was actually expecting people to say that maybe it has nothing to do with self esteem but maybe overall functionality being more on a esfp level but instead it actually was falsifing self esteem itself.

BTW I like ALL the responses so far.

 

[MoniqueS]

I agree with you completely. And a big reason why I took a step back from even the possibility of dating is because I knew I needed to improve my self-esteem and figure out what I really want in a relationship. I wholeheartedly believe that you have to make yourself happy, and never rely on any other person to do this for you. I also definitely have that all or nothing attitude when it comes to relationships, so I usually opt for nothing.

 

[Aya Glenn]

"The actual discussion is that everyone is deserving of love or at least a shot at it, but it is the sense of entitlement that is so disagreeable me."

I defiantly think that everyone should be loved, whether or not they deserve it, how else will they become able to deserve it if they have never felt it? But that being said, that people think that they are entitled to another's feelings and affection is silly. Everyone is entitled to courtesy, courtesy is not the same as respect, nor affection, nor love. Love can only be freely given.

About the self esteem as said at the beginning: its about balance in my mind. Having too much or too little of anything is the problem and balance is an individual thing for each of us. I would also disagree with that people think of themselves as how often (or not) they get in a relationship, which seems to be what you are implying. I have never been in one, I have only felt things for two people... yet I would not consider myself conceited or vain and neither would anyone who knows me. I just wont get in a relationship unless both parties feel the same about each other, unless there is something special for both people. It is not that none of the awesome guys I have met are good enough for me, nor is it that I am not good enough for them. It is about a mutual feeling of closeness, a mutual want to be in each-other's presence. I have just not found that yet. With many of my friends who go from relationship to relationship, it is also not about self esteem, it is about how both people feel. How long the relationship lasts often does deal with self esteem though and their ability to preserver, or their tendency to hold on too long, depending on the person. But that is just my experience with those that I am near to.

Having too little self esteem, it seems to me, is not necessarily natural, but taught. Those that always think the worst of themselves learned that, either through things other people said, or self-hating behaviors of those they are around. ... In my opinion the best/only way we can really help is to be a good example and to never give up on people. If we consistently show them what being "healthy" is like we can help. Or... sometimes I have purposely gone in the opposite direction to the extreme to show them just how bad what they are starting can get... and well, most people decide they don't want that. But one thing those of us that are "healthy" must remember is not too judge them, and we cannot be harsh with them if we have not lifted a hand to try to help. I have come to realize that I don't think anyone is fully "healthy," we all have things about ourselves we can work on. We all have problems, so who are we to judge another? We can all learn, we can all grow, we can all compensate for the areas in which we lack.