Life in the Middle Ages | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Life in the Middle Ages

Discussion in 'History, Travel, and Culture' started by Gaze, Feb 7, 2016.

Share This Page

Watchers:
This thread is being watched by 10 users.
More threads by Gaze
  1. Elegant Winter

    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Threads:
    27
    Messages:
    1,450
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    219
    MBTI:
    ENTJ-A
    Enneagram:
    Probably Nine
    [MENTION=10759]BrokenDaniel[/MENTION]

    I find commonly slaughtering and eating your own children extremely primitive and barbaric. What about you?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  2. BrokenDaniel

    Infraction Bin

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Threads:
    8
    Messages:
    746
    Likes Received:
    122
    Trophy Points:
    150
    MBTI:
    ISFP ESI
    Enneagram:
    4w5 Sx/Sp
    What kind of question is that? These rites were as i said were overly stated, these weren't performed as much as it is made out to be. Also the one who implied a fondness of interracial gore was you...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. acd

    acd Well-known member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2009
    Threads:
    133
    Messages:
    12,518
    Featured Threads:
    8
    Likes Received:
    15,259
    Trophy Points:
    1,227
    MBTI:
    infp
    Enneagram:
    9w8 sp/sx
    May the most popular opinion win! One defends a civilations practice of human sacrifice and another praises a conquerer's destruction of that empire. It's all blood and gore and death either way.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  4. Elegant Winter

    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Threads:
    27
    Messages:
    1,450
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    219
    MBTI:
    ENTJ-A
    Enneagram:
    Probably Nine
    "So i don't think you can draw the line that easily when it comes to "primitiveness' or even... "bestiality". You put one in the bag, and you put em'all, specially in that time." - BrokenDaniel

    Some are far more primitive and barbaric than others. I think there is a bold line to drawn here between Europeans and the Aztecs in terms of primitive and barbaric behavior. Did Europeans of the time sacrifice millions or eat their children? I think not.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Flavus Aquila likes this.
  5. Elegant Winter

    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Threads:
    27
    Messages:
    1,450
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    219
    MBTI:
    ENTJ-A
    Enneagram:
    Probably Nine
    I wonder what people would think about human and child sacrifice were it still commonplace in Central and South America today. Would they defend it then?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  6. BrokenDaniel

    Infraction Bin

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Threads:
    8
    Messages:
    746
    Likes Received:
    122
    Trophy Points:
    150
    MBTI:
    ISFP ESI
    Enneagram:
    4w5 Sx/Sp
    Where did you get that? Millions? Eat their children? You're making up bullshit to prove your point. Read the post that you just quoted me instead of responding out of the blue. Try again...


    Of course not. We're in the 21st century, the thread is about medieval ages, neither i do anyway, reread my posts. Although you do find bliss and delight in the annihiliation of an entire civilization, while talking for the poor little children of that same civilization that were sacrificed... You're a hypocritical, and also illiterate on the subject.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #46 BrokenDaniel, Feb 11, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
  7. Free

    Free probably just a "like" bot
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Threads:
    51
    Messages:
    7,329
    Featured Threads:
    13
    Likes Received:
    31,935
    Trophy Points:
    3,727
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Best Coast :p
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    295ish
    Yup, gonna be annoying and copy/paste everything from this source in one giant ass post. :D

    Top 10 Medical Advances from the Middle Ages

    Medieval medicine has often been portrayed as a time when physicians were ignorant and health care remained the stuff of superstitions and quackery. However, a closer look reveals that were many ways in which medical knowledge and care improved during the Middle Ages.

    1. Hospitals
    By the fourth century the concept of a hospital — a place where patients could be treated by doctors with access to specialized equipment — was emerging in parts of the Roman Empire. The origins of hospitals begin in Christian religious establishments that were meant to provide lodgings and care for the poor and travellers. In Byzantium and Western Europe hospitals were usually run by monasteries and gradually became larger and more complex over the Middle Ages. Meanwhile, in the Arabic world hospitals emerged in the 8th century as more secular institutions, and in larger cities they could be staffed by dozens of physicians, had several wards for different illnesses, and could even have amenities like musicians playing in the halls.

    [​IMG]
    Hôtel-Dieu de Paris circa 1500. The comparatively well patients (on the right) were separated from the very ill (on the left).​

    2. Pharmacies
    The first pharmacy was established in Baghdad in the year 754. As one medieval Arabic physician said these were places for “the art of knowing the materia medica simples in their various species, types and shapes. From these, the pharmacist prepares compounded medications as prescribed and ordered by the prescribing physician.” Pharmacies proved to be very popular and more drug stores soon opened up around the Arabic world. By the 12th century they could be found in Europe. Having pharmacies greatly aided the development of knowledge about drugs and how they could be made.

    [​IMG]
    Illustration of a pharmacy in the Italian Tacuinum sanitatis, 14th century.​

    3. Eyeglasses
    We are not sure who invented eyeglasses to help correct vision, but by the end of 13th-century it seems that the product was well known in Italy. A Dominican friar named Giordano da Pisa said in a sermon from the year 1305: “It is not yet twenty years since there was found the art of making eyeglasses, which make for good vision… And it is so short a time that this new art, never before extant, was discovered. … I saw the one who first discovered and practiced it, and I talked to him.” The earliest depiction of a person wearing glasses comes from the year 1352, when Tommaso da Modena included an image of Cardinal Hugh of Provence as part of a fresco in a church. It shows the cardinal wearing the glasses as he writes at his desk.

    [​IMG]
    Tommaso da Modena depicting eyeglasses in 1352.​

    4. Anatomy and dissection
    Many historians have believed that knowledge about anatomy stagnated in the Middle Ages. However, there is a great deal of evidence that medieval physicians were conducting experiments and examining the anatomy of the human body. In the year 1315 the Italian physician Mondino de Luzzi even conducted a public dissection for his students and spectators. The following year he would write Anathomia corporis humani, which is considered the first example of a modern dissection manual and the first true anatomical text.

    [​IMG]
    Dissection of a cadaver, 15th century painting​

    5. Medical Education in Universities
    The rise of universities throughout Europe would bring about important, but gradual, changes to the practices of medicine. Many medieval universities would teach physicians and become the main centres through which medical knowledge would be shared. Thomas Benedek explains in his article, ‘The Shift of Medical Education into the Universities‘: “In 1231 Frederick II promulgated a set of laws concerning medical education standards and licensure that were far ahead of his time. Although these laws did not have an immediate effect on medical training and practice, his codification of the importance of premedical education probably reinforced and stabilized an educational method which was developing and which became a cornerstone of the professionalization of physicians.”

    6. Ophthalmology and optics
    Ancient writers believed that humans could see things through invisible beams of light that were being emanated from the eyes. The 11th century scientist Ibn al-Haytham, came up with a new explanation for vision through his research on optics and the anatomy of the eye. His work, Book of Optics, would be considered the most important research in the field for hundreds of years. Medieval Arabic physicians were also notable for their advances in the area of ophthalmology, including the invention of the first syringe, which was used to extract a cataract from the eye.

    [​IMG]
    Anatomy of the Eye, from about the year 1200​

    7. Cleaning wounds
    Ancient medical writers believed that during surgery some pus should remain in the wounds, thinking that this would aid in its healing. This idea remained widespread until the 13th-century surgeon Theodoric Borgognoni came up with an antiseptic method, where wounds were to be cleaned and then sutured to promote healing. He even had bandages pre-soaked in wine as a form of disinfectant. The Italian surgeon is also know for pioneering the use aneasthetics in surgery. Borgognoni would make patients fall unconscious by placing a sponge soaked in opium, mandrake, hemlock and other substances under their nose.

    8. Cesarean sections
    While cesarean sections were practiced throughout the Middle Ages, this was done because the mother had died or had no chance of survival — and in some cases where the child was also already dead. But around the year 1500 we have the first written record of having both a mother and baby surviving a cesarean section. A Swiss farmer named Jacob Nufer performed the operation on his wife. She had been in labour for several days and was being assisted by thirteen midwives, but was still unable to deliver her baby. The operation was a success, with the mother subsequently going on to give birth to five more children, including twins. The baby lived to be 77 years old.

    9. Quarantine
    The concept of quarantine — to keep groups of people apart so that disease could not spread — began in the aftermath of the Black Death. In the year 1377 the city of Ragusa (now known as Dubrovnik) issued orders to combat the plague that included making arriving ships wait 30 days in the harbour before docking, so that authorities could be sure no one was infected. For land travellers this period was expanded to 40 days (in Italian quaranta). The success of these measures led to it being used in other parts of Italy and Europe by the end of the Middle Ages.

    10. Dental Amalgams
    One of the most important contributions to medicine from medieval China was to creation of amalgams for dental procedures. A text from the year 659 details the first use of a substance for tooth fillings, which was made up of silver and tin. The process was not used in Europe until the 16th century.
     
    Gaze, Misadventure and Wyote like this.
  8. Elegant Winter

    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Threads:
    27
    Messages:
    1,450
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    219
    MBTI:
    ENTJ-A
    Enneagram:
    Probably Nine
    If you were Cortes what would you have done?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  9. BrokenDaniel

    Infraction Bin

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Threads:
    8
    Messages:
    746
    Likes Received:
    122
    Trophy Points:
    150
    MBTI:
    ISFP ESI
    Enneagram:
    4w5 Sx/Sp
    Who cares, that's an irrelevant question. I doubt that if you were an aztec, or incan, would gladly offer yourself for punishment for the "barbaric acts" that in the eyes of the western church commited.
    If anything i could argue that these civilizations were transparent regarding more taboo subjects like death, whereas the europeans lived in a state of guilt, fear, repression and release. Also in the case of Aztecs, gold was the main motive behind the fall of Tenochtitlan. Maybe if they didn't had so much gold, we'll have an hibrid of sacrificial christianity today in the Americas for the indignated crusaders like you seem to be to fight and bash against.
    And that syncretism already exists anyway, in Mexico. Santa Muerte. St Death. Recently banned from being considered as a cult.

    [​IMG]
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #49 BrokenDaniel, Feb 19, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  10. Matt3737

    Matt3737 Similes are like songs in love.

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Threads:
    48
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,257
    Trophy Points:
    792
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    [MENTION=12656]Elegant Winter[/MENTION]

    You barely know your own history.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custom_of_the_sea

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism#Middle_Ages
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #50 Matt3737, Feb 20, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  11. Flavus Aquila

    Flavus Aquila Finding My Place in the Sun
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Threads:
    323
    Messages:
    10,047
    Featured Threads:
    49
    Likes Received:
    5,548
    Trophy Points:
    1,102
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    MBTI:
    INTJ - A
    Enneagram:
    10000
  12. Matt3737

    Matt3737 Similes are like songs in love.

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Threads:
    48
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,257
    Trophy Points:
    792
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    I am making the comparison and I did expect you or someone to bring up the distinction, but it'll be interesting to see whether you believe you can actually define the distinction AND determine their mutual exclusivity.

    Here's a hypothetical situation for you to ponder:

    Suppose a group of people under such conditions, believing it necessary for their survival, commit to the act of cannibalism. Then suppose they are discovered/rescued/relieved the very next day. Was the act necessary for their survival?

    Regardless of your answer, by what reasoning would it have to be the case that it cannot be both ritualistic and also necessary?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  13. Flavus Aquila

    Flavus Aquila Finding My Place in the Sun
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Threads:
    323
    Messages:
    10,047
    Featured Threads:
    49
    Likes Received:
    5,548
    Trophy Points:
    1,102
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    MBTI:
    INTJ - A
    Enneagram:
    10000
    I think I'll wait to answer these questions until you have answered mine; to make sure you're actually serious.

    I'll repost:
    Could you clarify what point, if any, you are trying to make?

    It almost seems as though you are trying to equate cannibalism out of starvation/necessity with ritualistic killing/cannibalism; but I don't want to assume that was the point you were making.
     
    Elegant Winter likes this.
  14. Matt3737

    Matt3737 Similes are like songs in love.

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Threads:
    48
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,257
    Trophy Points:
    792
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    My point was directed at [MENTION=12656]Elegant Winter[/MENTION]'s usage of cannibalism as a form of misplaced blood libel justification, ie the mere fact of cannibalism in one culture not only justifies condemnation, but also grants a moral superiority against all other cultures as well. As this post suggests:

    As the wikipage on cannibalism mentions:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism#As_used_to_demonize_colonized_or_other_groups

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

    I think it's a moral and physical struggle that shouldn't be discussed so misleadingly.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. Flavus Aquila

    Flavus Aquila Finding My Place in the Sun
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Threads:
    323
    Messages:
    10,047
    Featured Threads:
    49
    Likes Received:
    5,548
    Trophy Points:
    1,102
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    MBTI:
    INTJ - A
    Enneagram:
    10000
    That doesn't seem like a reasonable representation of ElegantWinter's point. It seemed pretty clear that the point ElegantW was making was that cultures, in which ritual infanticide (with subsequent cannibalism) is acceptable, should be considered/treated as unacceptable cultures.

    Trying to spring an "aha" because starving soldiers may have eaten the remains of enemies slain in battle is missing the point. Cannibalism isn't in itself abhorrent, except that it doesn't respect the bodies of the dead; but this respect for the bodies of the dead cannot take precedence over the needs of the starving living.

    Culturally entrenched ritual infanticide and ritual child murder seem to be the issue.


    In the example of rescued cannibals, whether it was necessary depends on whether they knew the would be rescued, and whether they could have made it to the next day. If they had no reason to expect rescue, then it was necessary.

    Ritualistic murder/cannibalism could indeed be necessary for the preservation of the life of the cannibals. But in that instance the need does not justify the killing - you cannot take an innocent, non-threatening life to save another life. But returning to the topic in question, the ritual sacrifice of children in Central America was performed on such a large scale that there were literally hills of rotting corpses left outside the temple precincts after major ritual days. These were rituals run by the "state." Cannibalism was token and ritualistic, if practiced at all in the majority of cases. Such a culture had to be overturned and never allowed to return.

    In the contemporary situation, global governments want to overturn leaders who use chemical weapons on their people. Can you imagine what would happen if the President of Mexico appointed a native religion commission and they started to tear the beating hearts out of children at a rate of more than 10,000 a day, just like in the pre-colonial times?
     
  16. Matt3737

    Matt3737 Similes are like songs in love.

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Threads:
    48
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,257
    Trophy Points:
    792
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    I don't find it unreasonable in the least. It is entirely consistent with statements previously made in this and other threads. This post clearly indicates annihilation to be synonymous with genocide:

    Perhaps you remember the thread where EW used 'annihilation' as a metaphor for proselytizing or conversion and adamantly denied any association with violence?

    This post here, which you apparently agree with, conflating the process of civilizing others and committing genocide to be equally acceptable:

    Hence, it would seem that proselytizing/converting other cultures and killing/destroying them are equivalent activities to you both. Nobody is asking you to accept or condone any such behavior. That doesn't make it acceptable to make misleading and spurious claims based on such little information that is leading towards acts of blatant hypocrisy.

    We can't seem to agree on a reasonable representation of EW's point. There are times when either option is a fully and equally plausible outcome and thus likened to the flipping of a coin.

    This is a very spurious claim as to the extent that is not backed by the available evidence.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  17. Matt3737

    Matt3737 Similes are like songs in love.

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Threads:
    48
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,257
    Trophy Points:
    792
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    [MENTION=862]Flavus Aquila[/MENTION]

    Regarding your own beliefs, could you please explain to me how the Eucharist significantly differs from ritual cannibalism?

     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  18. Elegant Winter

    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Threads:
    27
    Messages:
    1,450
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    219
    MBTI:
    ENTJ-A
    Enneagram:
    Probably Nine
    Swiss Armor 1.png

    Here is a suit of Swiss armor from 1480 that I like. I think some of the plate armor from the Middle Ages is very nice.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  19. Matt3737

    Matt3737 Similes are like songs in love.

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Threads:
    48
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,257
    Trophy Points:
    792
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    More great examples of the benevolence of the morally superior. Simultaneous proof AND punishment! A brilliantly efficient cultural achievement.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  20. Flavus Aquila

    Flavus Aquila Finding My Place in the Sun
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Threads:
    323
    Messages:
    10,047
    Featured Threads:
    49
    Likes Received:
    5,548
    Trophy Points:
    1,102
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    MBTI:
    INTJ - A
    Enneagram:
    10000
    [​IMG]

    vs

    [​IMG]
     
    Elegant Winter likes this.
Loading...

Share This Page