Liberalism vs Realism

[Eventhorizon]

hhh.gavilan.edu/mturetzky/pols4/TheoreticalPerspectivesLiberalismRealism.htm

I thought this was a well written insight into the markedly different mindset of todays society. I personally being mainly rational and logical in thought cannot see how anyone in good conscience could subscribe to a liberal mindset. Its beyond reason in my mind.

 

[Lerxst]

hhh.gavilan.edu/mturetzky/pols4/TheoreticalPerspectivesLiberalismRealism.htm

I thought this was a well written insight into the markedly different mindset of todays society. I personally being mainly rational and logical in thought cannot see how anyone in good conscience could subscribe to a liberal mindset. Its beyond reason in my mind.

1. You should note from the above that liberalism, or idealist theory, embraces a more optimistic view of world politics, state relations, and the possibility of "perpetual peace"...That's why I started with this quote by Kant's more optimistic view of the world.


Your words and those in the article aren't aligning with one another. You can't see how anyone in good conscience can subscribe to a Liberal mindset when the Liberal mindset is one of exactly that, a good conscience.

 

[Tin Man]

hhh.gavilan.edu/mturetzky/pols4/TheoreticalPerspectivesLiberalismRealism.htm

I thought this was a well written insight into the markedly different mindset of todays society. I personally being mainly rational and logical in thought cannot see how anyone in good conscience could subscribe to a liberal mindset. Its beyond reason in my mind.

I don't understand where this comes from. The link was interesting, but it didn't seem to be arguing for one side or another. It wasn't even talking about the common notion of realism, which is usually taken as common sense, but about the philosophical school of realism. Which, one could easily argue, is just as out of touch with reality as liberalism.

In fact, the article you linked stated that classical realism is pessimistic in nature. It's just as much an extreme as idealism is. And I don't see how focusing in military might and the struggle for power is any more logical than a mindset focused on welfare and reformation.

 

[Skarekrow]

I can post articles and studies that show just the opposite all day…as can you.
http://www.salon.com/2014/10/24/why_conservatives_prefer_propaganda_to_reality_partner/

What we need to do if find the common ground and learn how to compromise…if neither side is totally happy, then it’s probably a good bill.

There are extremists on both sides of the isle…they are getting more and more extreme as the years pass…this is how we end up shutting down Washington to read “Green Eggs and Ham” on the floor of Congress.

We need to get away from that crap…I believe that most Americans want to work together to solve some of the very serious social issues at hand.
Our bridges are unsafe…unsafe! http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/15/bridges-need-repair/2816881/
Over 65,000 are in need of repair, and yet, no legislation.
We have our own children in the US going hungry, and what happens? Congress tries it’s hardest to defund programs in favor of inflating our already insane military budget.
https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-hunger-us

Obamacare is a joke.
I agree with that…it kept the insurance companies in charge…they don’t give a fuck about you or me…they are running a business…they want to squeeze the most money they can out of us (why do you think we pay the most in the world, while we are ranked 38th in the world?)…they used to be able to drop you like a hot potato in an instant.
The only thing the ACA was good for was to put a few protections FROM the insurance companies in place…like not being able to drop you because your care becomes too expensive. Not denying people basic health care because they have a pre-existing condition (I couldn’t get insured for two years once because of that bullshit).
All that nonsense about Obama saying - “You can keep your health plan” All the hoopla that the media stirred up.
Turns out that the very basic rules that the insurance companies now had to follow, voided the junk plans they had sold people…that hardly covered people at all, if at all.
So yes, they got notices saying - Your plan is no good after blah blah blah…
What they didn’t say was they could go on the website and get the same if not a better plan from the same company for cheaper.
They want your money…I can’t believe that ANYONE would think otherwise. (here are the “death panels” my friend)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/...is-really-an-Insurance-Co-Scam-to-Rip-You-Off
Close to me in Portland…we have the Rose Garden arena…except it isn’t the fucking Rose Garden anymore…it’s the Moda Center…Moda Health Insurance is paying close to $40 million to have their goddamn name on the place for advertising…fuck them….they are the scum of the earth…put that $40 million towards peoples’ bills…put it toward their huge co-payments. http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/index.ssf/2013/08/trail_blazers_naming_rights_moda.html

Medical bills are the NUMBER one reason that people file for bankruptcy in America.
That is just pathetic…while we pay this for war! - https://www.nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/ (just watch the counters go!! Holy crap!)

We rage about Benghazi…how many civilians has the US killed in our current and most recent conflicts?
It’s estimated around 174,000 though they also estimate it to be even higher.
http://costsofwar.org/article/civilians-killed-and-wounded

And our media makes us hate each other…makes the poor, the homeless, those who are struggling the most…into garbage, drug addicts, a life not worth bothering with.
You know the statistical data shows that people who are on SNAP use drugs at the same rate of those in their community who aren’t on SNAP.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/30/the-myth-of-welfare-and-drug-use.html

I can go on for days…there are so many articles and studies and statistical data that I can use to support my position.
But that isn’t my point.

Niether side looks at the data the other side has presented, because everyone is too fucking bullheaded to expand their horizons.
Even when presented with hard data, people ignore it.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/
They prefer to live in their own bubble of reality that has been presented to them by the media and the idiotic talking heads.

 

[muir]

I can post articles and studies that show just the opposite all day…as can you.
http://www.salon.com/2014/10/24/why_conservatives_prefer_propaganda_to_reality_partner/

What we need to do if find the common ground and learn how to compromise…if neither side is totally happy, then it’s probably a good bill.

There are extremists on both sides of the isle…they are getting more and more extreme as the years pass…this is how we end up shutting down Washington to read “Green Eggs and Ham” on the floor of Congress.

We need to get away from that crap…I believe that most Americans want to work together to solve some of the very serious social issues at hand.
Our bridges are unsafe…unsafe! http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/15/bridges-need-repair/2816881/
Over 65,000 are in need of repair, and yet, no legislation.
We have our own children in the US going hungry, and what happens? Congress tries it’s hardest to defund programs in favor of inflating our already insane military budget.
https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-hunger-us

Obamacare is a joke.
I agree with that…it kept the insurance companies in charge…they don’t give a fuck about you or me…they are running a business…they want to squeeze the most money they can out of us (why do you think we pay the most in the world, while we are ranked 38th in the world?)…they used to be able to drop you like a hot potato in an instant.
The only thing the ACA was good for was to put a few protections FROM the insurance companies in place…like not being able to drop you because your care becomes too expensive. Not denying people basic health care because they have a pre-existing condition (I couldn’t get insured for two years once because of that bullshit).
All that nonsense about Obama saying - “You can keep your health plan” All the hoopla that the media stirred up.
Turns out that the very basic rules that the insurance companies now had to follow, voided the junk plans they had sold people…that hardly covered people at all, if at all.
So yes, they got notices saying - Your plan is no good after blah blah blah…
What they didn’t say was they could go on the website and get the same if not a better plan from the same company for cheaper.
They want your money…I can’t believe that ANYONE would think otherwise. (here are the “death panels” my friend)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/...is-really-an-Insurance-Co-Scam-to-Rip-You-Off
Close to me in Portland…we have the Rose Garden arena…except it isn’t the fucking Rose Garden anymore…it’s the Moda Center…Moda Health Insurance is paying close to $40 million to have their goddamn name on the place for advertising…fuck them….they are the scum of the earth…put that $40 million towards peoples’ bills…put it toward their huge co-payments. http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/index.ssf/2013/08/trail_blazers_naming_rights_moda.html

Medical bills are the NUMBER one reason that people file for bankruptcy in America.
That is just pathetic…while we pay this for war! - https://www.nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/ (just watch the counters go!! Holy crap!)

We rage about Benghazi…how many civilians has the US killed in our current and most recent conflicts?
It’s estimated around 174,000 though they also estimate it to be even higher.
http://costsofwar.org/article/civilians-killed-and-wounded

And our media makes us hate each other…makes the poor, the homeless, those who are struggling the most…into garbage, drug addicts, a life not worth bothering with.
You know the statistical data shows that people who are on SNAP use drugs at the same rate of those in their community who aren’t on SNAP.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/30/the-myth-of-welfare-and-drug-use.html

I can go on for days…there are so many articles and studies and statistical data that I can use to support my position.
But that isn’t my point.

Niether side looks at the data the other side has presented, because everyone is too fucking bullheaded to expand their horizons.
Even when presented with hard data, people ignore it.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/
They prefer to live in their own bubble of reality that has been presented to them by the media and the idiotic talking heads.

Some good points but there has not been 170,000 killed by the US's recent wars there has been well over a million killed (1 million in iraq alone)

 

[Skarekrow]

Some good points but there has not been 170,000 killed by the US's recent wars there has been well over a million killed (1 million in iraq alone)

Not surprised if that is the actual number.
Either way, both numbers are inexcusable…and then to go fucking nuts about a US consulate that was attacked…while discounting all the other Consulate attacks that have happened in every other Presidency…all while never talking about the casualties we have caused to innocent people - is immoral, and disgusting.

Here’s the reality.

 

[muir]

Not surprised if that is the actual number.
Either way, both numbers are inexcusable…and then to go fucking nuts about a US consulate that was attacked…while discounting all the other Consulate attacks that have happened in every other Presidency…all while never talking about the casualties we have caused to innocent people - is immoral, and disgusting.

Here’s the reality.

If a country placed a 'consulate' in your country and filled it with spies who are given large sums of money to subvert your country from the inside and destabilise it so that they can then exploit your resources and the ensuing civil war you'd probably want to attack that consulate too

 

[Skarekrow]

If a country placed a 'consulate' in your country and filled it with spies who are given large sums of money to subvert your country from the inside and destabilise it so that they can then exploit your resources and the ensuing civil war you'd probably want to attack that consulate too

No doubt.

 

[muir]

No doubt.

I know that you know about this guy already but ill post the video for any people who haven't heard him speak before

He worked for the CIA as an 'economic hitman'

Back in 1953 the CIA worked out that it was easier to send an agent into a country with a stash of money so that they could pay mercenaries and disgruntled people (rent-a-mob) to destabilise a country then it is to send troops in

This worked when they successfully caused an overthrow of the democratically elected leader in Iran in 1953 and they replaced him with a puppet leader the shah. However the iranians then overthrew the shah

The CIA then used this method as a blue-print to foment trouble all around the world. Most recently they have done it in ukraine where they funded nazi far right extremists to overthrow the kiev government and have caused a civil war in ukraine where 30% of the ukrianian troops deserted from the army because they do not want to fight other ukrainians

So anyway that guy in Iran was traceable to the CIA so they started using outside corporate contractors to do their dirty work to maintain 'plausible deniability'

This guy write about his experiences in a book called 'the confessions of an economic hitman' in which he explains the CIA's modus operandi which is to send in money men to offer bribes to leaders in countries they want to corrupt and subvert (ie let their corporations exploit them). If they refuse the bribes they send in the 'jackals' to assassinate them

Thsi guy then later felt shame about the role he had played, apologised to the families of the victims and went public about the work he did for the CIA

This is how the world works (at least for the CIA anyway)

[video=youtube;y-a6jzU0YgQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-a6jzU0YgQ[/video]

 

[Eventhorizon]

Hmmm...

 

[muir]

Hmmm...

All that crap in your media about republicans versus democrats is a load of political THEATRE

They weave narratives that they want you to believe like when you were told as a kid about santa claus

They want you to see reality a certain way so that they can hide all their crimes

Left v's right bull crap to divide the american people while both parties rob you blind to make their bankster overlords rich

 

[Skarekrow]

 

[Lerxst]

Nope. Honestly, I have no desire, whatsoever to even try to compromise with any of the "far Right" anymore. That fucker read Green Eggs and fucking Ham on our fucking dime for nothing more than a temper tantrum. I have no desire to find a middle ground with that mindset.

We need as many far-Left Liberals as possible to pull this country back to the true "Center" of the political spectrum on the global scale. Compromising with the pure BS shoveling assholes on the Right is what caused this joke of a government we now have.

 

[Eventhorizon]

All that crap in your media about republicans versus democrats is a load of political THEATRE

They weave narratives that they want you to believe like when you were told as a kid about santa claus

They want you to see reality a certain way so that they can hide all their crimes

Left v's right bull crap to divide the american people while both parties rob you blind to make their bankster overlords rich

This is your response to my "hmmmm...."
Interesting.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Nope. Honestly, I have no desire, whatsoever to even try to compromise with any of the "far Right" anymore. That fucker read Green Eggs and fucking Ham on our fucking dime for nothing more than a temper tantrum. I have no desire to find a middle ground with that mindset.

We need as many far-Left Liberals as possible to pull this country back to the true "Center" of the political spectrum on the global scale. Compromising with the pure BS shoveling assholes on the Right is what caused this joke of a government we now have.

I understand exactly what you mean. As the days pass I have less and less desire to even consider what the far left has to say on anything. They dont live in the real world. They live in some fantasy lamd where things become possible just because they are wanted. I have little patience for people who dont apply realistic thought processes to come up with solutions.

 

[muir]

This is your response to my "hmmmm...."
Interesting.

Your 'hmmmm' post was obtuse and so is your post above!

I thought you were perhaps suggesting that my previous posts weren't relevant to the OP because i get criticized for that a lot!

But it is all connected....everything is connected

The left and right narratives the media spin are all bullshit......out of which the people ALWAYS get screwed and the elite ALWAYS get richer

At some point everyone will wake upto this, but probably not until their wallets have been emptied and their homes repossessed

 

[Eventhorizon]

Your 'hmmmm' post was obtuse and so is your post above!

I thought you were perhaps suggesting that my previous posts weren't relevant to the OP because i get criticized for that a lot!

But it is all connected....everything is connected

The left and right narratives the media spin are all bullshit......out of which the people ALWAYS get screwed and the elite ALWAYS get richer

At some point everyone will wake upto this, but probably not until their wallets have been emptied and their homes repossessed

So...what you did is fill in the blanks as to what you thought was going on without really knowing what was going on. Other people have posted on the thread yet you felt my "hmmmmm" was directly aimed at you.
Interesting.

 

[muir]

So...what you did is fill in the blanks as to what you thought was going on without really knowing what was going on. Other people have posted on the thread yet you felt my "hmmmmm" was directly aimed at you.
Interesting.

You are still being vague and leaving room for confusion and then criticisng people for reading into the communication void that you are leaving

At best that is lazy and at worst it is manipulative

Why don't you just shoot straight, talk straight and explain yourself?

 

[Lerxst]

I follow science, the Right defies it. You tell me which one is being a "realist" or not. When 97% of scientists all agree something is happening, the Conservatives put all their eggs (since we are talking about asshats who read Green Eggs and Ham in front of a group of adults after all) in the 3% basket, paid off by billionaires. (I'm not even going to get started with Creationism!) That's neither logic nor reason, it's simple stupidity. And trying to compromise with stupidity is a stupid act in itself.

You also can't say something isn't realistic or practical for the US when most of the civilized world has adopted it already. Healthcare - unless you think it should be survival of the fittest, should be available for everyone. Education - shouldn't put you in debt for the next 20 years of your life, unless you actually want the banks to get richer. Military spending - should be dissected and torn down to a fraction of what it is... unless we need drones to declare war on our next stone-age, third world country or something.

 

[Eventhorizon]

You are still being vague and leaving room for confusion and then criticisng people for reading into the communication void that you are leaving

At best that is lazy and at worst it is manipulative

Why don't you just shoot straight, talk straight and explain yourself?

Conversations with you are always interesting and these days, short.