"Just" having a conversation.

[sassafras]

Ok sooooo anytime I ever use Se it's in direct relation to my Ti?

I'm doomed to correa graph my inner thinking world? Like interpretive dance?

I think you're being facetious and misunderstanding on purpose. If there's something you disagree with, feel free to explain why or offer an alternative perspective.

 

[TinyBubbles]

we're talking about small talk, right? i actually love it when people try to engage me in small talk for the sake of relieving silent awkwardness, sometimes i feel too shy to do it myself.

 

[Basildon]

The functions are organized in the stack the way they are for a reason. Introverted functions require extroverted functions to express their findings, and vice versa. Two introverted functions would loop on themselves because both function similarly (that is they converge in their conclusions).

In other words, there wouldn't be anything for Ti to break down. Ti interacts with the conclusions of Ni only as they are interpreted/expressed through Fe.

They are both convergent, but unlike INTJ, INFJ does not necessarily need external validation (Te) of its findings. I don't need to actually say what I am thinking if I make an intuitive leap. That is the particular quirk of the Ni-Ti loop and why INFJ can be unusual with their insights or conclusions*. You can put it out there to test it, sure, but once the understanding of the subject is deep enough...Fe is not mandatory. It will help refine your understanding as external input pushes against it, but Ni holds the internal subject/object in queue, and Ti helps constantly refine the slowly coalescing impressions that have been gathered...mostly from the past (experiences and information), as well as new information from Se. Ni, a nebulae that implodes and then coalesces into a star system...elegant, poignant and a perfect definition of how an INFJ forms and refines the internal world. Judging by all the information below, Ni and Ti indeed interact...intuitively, I don't see how they cannot...otherwise the Ni-Ti loop phenomenon would not exist...after my divorce 4 years ago, I experienced a few episodes.

My understanding of Ni is evolving but this article was very helpful in discerning the difference between Ni and Ne:

http://personalitycafe.com/articles/84275-cognitive-function-ne-vs-.ni.html

Others, especially personalityjunkie, with it's emphasis on aesthetical pleasures (beauty) that INJ's indulge in because of Ni-Se.

http://personalitygrowth.com/introverted-intuition/
http://personalityjunkie.com/10/introverted-intuition-ni/
http://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/comments/2c3kj3/ni_or_ne_dominant/

*As a Tertiary Function, Ti leads IFJs to.... ?
...."advise others on the wisdom of their choices"(edited from Lenorep.231 on INFJs.) vis a vis Ti as a primary attribute. Also, tertiary Ti leads to an important emphasis on personal experience. Yet unlike dominant and secondary Ti, tertiary Ti can often lead sweeping generalizations induced from sparse evidence. Tertiary Ti leads can lead to a narcissistic focus on your own experience, or the experience of people who stand with you. If someone disagrees with you, then they must be naive. This kind of narrow view is often used defensively. Especially when combined with dominant Ni, tertiary Ti can be used to defend bizarre theories that are completely unfalsifiable.

 

[sassafras]

They are both convergent, but unlike INTJ, INFJ does not necessarily need external validation (Te) of its findings. I don't need to actually say what I am thinking if I make an intuitive leap. That is the particular quirk of the Ni-Ti loop and why INFJ can be unusual with their insights or conclusions*. You can put it out there to test it, sure, but once the understanding of the subject is deep enough...Fe is not mandatory. It will help refine your understanding as external input pushes against it, but Ni holds the internal subject/object in queue, and Ti helps constantly refine the slowly coalescing impressions that have been gathered...mostly from the past (experiences and information), as well as new information from Se. Ni, a nebulae that implodes and then coalesces into a star system...elegant, poignant and a perfect definition of how an INFJ forms and refines the internal world. Judging by all the information below, Ni and Ti indeed interact...intuitively, I don't see how they cannot...otherwise the Ni-Ti loop phenomenon would not exist...after my divorce 4 years ago, I experienced a few episodes.

My understanding of Ni is evolving but this article was very helpful in discerning the difference between Ni and Ne:

http://personalitycafe.com/articles/84275-cognitive-function-ne-vs-.ni.html

Others, especially personalityjunkie, with it's emphasis on aesthetical pleasures (beauty) that INJ's indulge in because of Ni-Se.

http://personalitygrowth.com/introverted-intuition/
http://personalityjunkie.com/10/introverted-intuition-ni/
http://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/comments/2c3kj3/ni_or_ne_dominant/

*As a Tertiary Function, Ti leads IFJs to.... ?
...."advise others on the wisdom of their choices"(edited from Lenorep.231 on INFJs.) vis a vis Ti as a primary attribute. Also, tertiary Ti leads to an important emphasis on personal experience. Yet unlike dominant and secondary Ti, tertiary Ti can often lead sweeping generalizations induced from sparse evidence. Tertiary Ti leads can lead to a narcissistic focus on your own experience, or the experience of people who stand with you. If someone disagrees with you, then they must be naive. This kind of narrow view is often used defensively. Especially when combined with dominant Ni, tertiary Ti can be used to defend bizarre theories that are completely unfalsifiable.

Mmm. I agree with some things (Ni-Se being a dominant-inferior pair and an example of how introverted-extroverted functions operate in synthesis), but disagree with others.

For one thing, both extroverted judging functions provide external validation of internal findings. This is how I understand extroverted functions work. It's not just a Te thing. Se is the well that Ni draws from, whereas Fe provides the context and Ti verifies the conclusions. If you cannot explain an insight wherein you just 'know,' what you're actually describing is the absence of logical Ti (which requires explanation), not holistic Fe. The buck stops at Ni-Fe. Ti is not needed to come in and verify.

The excerpt you posted from personalityjunkie, in my view, does not at all mean that Fe is excluded, rather, that its values are overridden in favor of Ti. Its not that the auxiliary function is eradicated, it is that its influence is lessened. Mind you, I would be careful about referring to this a dominant-tertiary loop.

The way I understand it, dominant-tertiarty loop theory was an attempt to explain personality disorders using MBTI. Dominant-tertiary loops aren't a casual 'quirk' of normal functioning. It is specifically used to describe abnormal functioning as a result of habitual behaviour that emphasizes the findings of the less competent tertiary over auxiliary values.

Here is an excerpt from the theory:

A balanced psyche requires significant influence from both internal and external stimuli--too much introversion and we retreat entirely into ourselves and ignore all outer world influence to an unhealthy degree; too much extroversion and we are not able to remain in touch with what is important to our subjective internal selves, and become far too dependent upon external conditions and attitudes of others.

All too commonly I see people make the mistake of assuming that using T more than F automatically makes an xxTx type. In a healthy, balanced individual that's true, but when an ego becomes more dependent on the tertiary than the secondary, that's no longer the case.

For instance, I once mistook an INFJ for INTJ because he had poor secondary Fe and relied primarily on Ni+Ti. At the time I used only MBTI sliding scalesand didn't know functions yet, so since I saw primarily N and T I figured he would be an NT type. To the casual observer he would appear to be using N over S, and T over F, so he must be an NT type, right? Wrong! He is not an NT type unless his iNtuition and Thinking are oriented in opposite directions.

One really interesting result of this confusion is that each dom-tert loop type starts to look very similar to the dom-tert loop form of the type sharing only its first letter! For example:

INTJ: Ni (Te) Fi Se

ISFP: Fi (Se) Ni Te

This is exactly why many unbalanced personalities have difficulty fitting themselves into a single Jungian archetype. Unsurprisingly, if the INTJ above would improve his Te, and the ISFP would improve his Se, each would balance out the monopoly introverted attitudes currently have on his perspective and lead himself to much greater personal balance and contentment.

In my opinion, a lot of people have taken this loops out of context to explain away inconvenient typing results. Oh, you think I'm an XXXX? Actually, I do this one thing because I'm just an unhealthy XXXX engaged in a X-X loop.

I think people really take for granted just how much it would take to override the subconscious pathways that determine function order. Your dominant and auxiliary functions are the most conscious, the ones that you have been relying in since your formative years. The average person's tertiary function doesn't come into play until the late teens/ early 20's. To override your auxiliary to go straight to your tertiary would require some serious ego re configuring that wouldn't be all that easily reversible. Perhaps most people who use this loop theory are attempting to explain their experience with their inferior. Inferior grips are temporary and still keep the original personality intact and allow one to return to it once the grip is over. The kind of functioning that grows from dominant-tertiary loops require more commitment across the board and is more difficult to eradicate. You cannot really return to normal after experiencing the kind of trauma that would develop a personality disorder, nor can you develop one overnight. In my opinion, the loop theory proper lends itself more readily to an abnormal developmental issue rather than a response to stress in the same vein as an inferior grip.

But I digress.

In my opinion, the average INFJ isn't going to be engaged in a Ni-Ti loop. If they truly are habitually in the grips of a Ni-Ti loop, it's only natural that they're not going to be interested in 'small talk' or 'outside output' as this is essentially toeing the line of the schizoid personality. Furthermore, I think its reasonable to expect that if the auxiliary is not functioning normally, its not going to be functioning normally in all respects, not just in this one specific context.

 

[Basildon]

Mmm. I agree with some things (Ni-Se being a dominant-inferior pair and an example of how introverted-extroverted functions operate in synthesis), but disagree with others.

For one thing, both extroverted judging functions provide external validation of internal findings. This is how I understand extroverted functions work. It's not just a Te thing. Se is the well that Ni draws from, whereas Fe provides the context and Ti verifies the conclusions. If you cannot explain an insight wherein you just 'know,' what you're actually describing is the absence of logical Ti (which requires explanation), not holistic Fe. The buck stops at Ni-Fe. Ti is not needed to come in and verify.

The excerpt you posted from personalityjunkie, in my view, does not at all mean that Fe is excluded, rather, that its values are overridden in favor of Ti. Its not that the auxiliary function is eradicated, it is that its influence is lessened. Mind you, I would be careful about referring to this a dominant-tertiary loop.

The way I understand it, dominant-tertiarty loop theory was an attempt to explain personality disorders using MBTI. Dominant-tertiary loops aren't a casual 'quirk' of normal functioning. It is specifically used to describe abnormal functioning as a result of habitual behaviour that emphasizes the findings of the less competent tertiary over auxiliary values.

Here is an excerpt from the theory:



In my opinion, a lot of people have taken this loops out of context to explain away inconvenient typing results. Oh, you think I'm an XXXX? Actually, I do this one thing because I'm just an unhealthy XXXX engaged in a X-X loop.

I think people really take for granted just how much it would take to override the subconscious pathways that determine function order. Your dominant and auxiliary functions are the most conscious, the ones that you have been relying in since your formative years. The average person's tertiary function doesn't come into play until the late teens/ early 20's. To override your auxiliary to go straight to your tertiary would require some serious ego re configuring that wouldn't be all that easily reversible. Perhaps most people who use this loop theory are attempting to explain their experience with their inferior. Inferior grips are temporary and still keep the original personality intact and allow one to return to it once the grip is over. The kind of functioning that grows from dominant-tertiary loops require more commitment across the board and is more difficult to eradicate. You cannot really return to normal after experiencing the kind of trauma that would develop a personality disorder, nor can you develop one overnight. In my opinion, the loop theory proper lends itself more readily to an abnormal developmental issue rather than a response to stress in the same vein as an inferior grip.

But I digress.

In my opinion, the average INFJ isn't going to be engaged in a Ni-Ti loop. If they truly are habitually in the grips of a Ni-Ti loop, it's only natural that they're not going to be interested in 'small talk' or 'outside output' as this is essentially toeing the line of the schizoid personality. Furthermore, I think its reasonable to expect that if the auxiliary is not functioning normally, its not going to be functioning normally in all respects, not just in this one specific context.

Thank you for ALL the input! Lots of food for thought. I agree on the personalitycafe article, and I have read about the Ni-Ti loop being a dysfunctional thing, though what constitutes its manifestation is often rather vague for those who attempt to explain it. A temporary overriding of Ti is something I might have been attempting relay. According to Lenore Thomson, the corpus callosum will permit lateral-hemispheric (conscious) control between both hemispheres, but not cross-hemispheric (diagonal) conscious control. I will learn more about this, but from what she says, it means functions that are diagonally opposed to one another within the four quadrant brain map cannot be simultaneously conscious...Ni - Se, Fe - Ti in INFJ.

Some of the conclusions that Ni-Ti can come to from overriding Fe can be cooky. That is why I attached the footnote. This might affect the more reclusive INFJ's like myself, since I am pretty much a hermit at present. I can pace around silently for very long periods of time when I am churning something really serious. It has always been a habit ... sometimes I lose track of time and objects. I call it my time machine, because it feels like 5 minutes are passing for every 1 minute I spend thinking. If I had a dollar for every time I boiled all the water out of a pot...

When I see people write how they can raise their inferior functions to dominant levels (permanently?), I am rather taken aback. Intuitively, I don't think this makes much sense. I always think about the amount of energy tertiary Ti costs me, and I am 45, where it has been developed much more than it would be for a younger INFJ. I understand math easier than when I was younger, and I use Ti better as the years go on, but I know that I could never hone it to a dominant function. To make an analogy, I think the dominant function is like a chess grandmaster, who has studied the game since early childhood. A person learning the game at 35, really has no chance to develop the same level of fluency. As a very experienced tournament player, I could perhaps when a game from a GM, but it might be 1 game in 20. What he/she sees in an instant, would cost me more time and energy to see.

The bigger thing is Se...I absolutely will not notice something that needs addressing if I don't take steps to make the object an obstacle that I must encounter. I have a place for everything when I am working, because I cannot afford to be trying to track things that I need for daily life. This is why I don't know what to think when it is posited that Se can be brought under complete control of an INFJ. This is one of my issues with INFJ being Enneagram 8. They simply would have to flip their function stack and start behaving like a healthy ESTP at baseline. I don't see how this is possible, and nothing I have read or experienced about being in the grip of Se tells me otherwise. The thing that usually sets it off for me is details, details, details...a bombardment of Ni, which doesn't really like to process too much at one time. Linear Algebra drove me up the bloody wall, even though I had to have it to complete my IT degree this year. You really have to pay superfluous attention to detail, because the problems have sooooooooo many steps and take sooooo much time...one negative sign where there should be a positive one and you get to start all over again. I was actually in physical pain from that class.

I wholly agree that many have taken license with how the subconscious pathways have been constructed. I think of it as the brain having organized itself exclusively for the environment it found itself in, and what was not needed "exclusively" simply atrophied or maintained a rather primitive state. We learn so much faster in the first 12 years or so of life...excellent brain plasticity/hard-wiring. If I had one wish in life, it would be to have 12 years of that plasticity back. Happy Holidays to you.

 

[WaterOx]

I think you're being facetious and misunderstanding on purpose. If there's something you disagree with, feel free to explain why or offer an alternative perspective.

Yeah I was just playing around

Well sorta! The truth is I was unaware of Se properties until I did some more reading since this thread. It would seem it's Se that triggers an infjs "perfectionistic streak". This is what you were saying, as far as I recall, that it is Se that has little tolerance for the abstract.

In other words, everything (the vision, the goal, the system, the whatever) MUST work out, as tho it were to manifest in the here and now? (Even tho that of course is impossible)

This is the way it feels to me sometimes. Hence, it's hard for me to "just" have a conversation. If I simply cannot see it working in the real world then I reject it completely....?? I think that's it, anyhow.

Would that make more sense?

 

[ElizabethRose]

I mean, and I'm sorry I know I haven't really been a part of this conversation, but just for the sake of giving my opinion, I do dislike small talk and I wish I didn't but the reason (as far as I can tell) is that I like silence more than small talk and I tend to resent that others feel like it's something to break when it's precious. As far as small talk being useless, it isn't. I should really try harder to see it as important and as a new way to see into someone in a new light. But I don't. I'd just rather ask 'what is the meaning of life' and get their answer than have to puzzle what I think it probably is from the words they use to fill silence. Guess I'm not much of a Sherlock. But I guess I'd rather get straight to it and ask the questions we really want to ask

 

[Dohavior]

You write very much like an infp. Have people told you that before?

It is not I that write like an INFP, but rather an INFP that writes like I. For the 16 types were all wrought from the mind of an INTP.

^-- That is how one deals with Vanity when "just having a conversation" happens. For further demonstration of this technique:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHwnaYrk0k