Is conservative really a Conservative?

[Lerxst]

I especially need the non-us members to help me with this one. I was brought up and know that, linguistically conservative means simply "not changing". It also stood to reason with me, that when talking about foreign politics that mention of "conservative" would also mean a party that wanted to keep things as they were.

Now, in the US, this means people looking back 200 years and wanting to go back to the old ways and resisting anything that would change us to something new. On the other hand, when talking about a non-US country that has been founded on other ideals that America considers "progressive", I've always considered "conservative" to mean keeping with their progressive agenda. Therefor, talking about a "conservative" in Canada would be about the same as talking about a "liberal" in the US.

What gets me baffled is when I read news articles and media coverage that describes something we would consider a conservative movement in one of these more liberal-than-the-US countries as just that, conservative. And vice versa for things we consider liberal.

Just to pull an example out of my ass - Canadians that want to privatize their healthcare system as being called "conservative" in the US media. It seems to me that a conservative Canadian would want to keep their healthcare system as it is, not change it, therefor wouldn't it more accurately be a "liberal" or "progressive" Canadian movement to privatize their healthcare system. At least that's what common sense of the language would tell me.

So have I just been mistaken or is this something the US media does to appeal to their politically backwards audience?

 

[Apone]

Conservative is the name of an actual political party in Canada that has considered privatizing health care… they used to be centre-right but they've mutated into something that is definitely more right than center, and coincidentally I also actively despise them.

Usually conservatives are all about the 'old' values… anti-abortion, traditional morality (church and state), militarism… they're usually the kind of people who use words like 'welfare queens' and blaming poor people for their poverty, and criminals for committing crimes (they're usually big on harsh punishments as well). They also tend to think that anyone who is successful deserves to be successful and are big on so-called 'self-reliance', as in everyone is responsible for themselves… whereas Liberals would be more likely to blame the system and then use the system to try to correct the problem, promote equality, etc.

At least, this is how I understand these things.

 

[Lerxst]

Conservative is the name of an actual political party in Canada that has considered privatizing health care… they used to be centre-right but they've mutated into something that is definitely more right than center, and coincidentally I also actively despise them.

Usually conservatives are all about the 'old' values… anti-abortion, traditional morality (church and state), militarism… they're usually the kind of people who use words like 'welfare queens' and blaming poor people for their poverty, and criminals for committing crimes (they're usually big on harsh punishments as well). They also tend to think that anyone who is successful deserves to be successful and are big on so-called 'self-reliance', as in everyone is responsible for themselves… whereas Liberals would be more likely to blame the system and then use the system to try to correct the problem, promote equality, etc.

At least, this is how I understand these things.

Kick those American-sympathizers out of the country then!

 

[hk427f3]

Conservative often means reactionary. Also, things that are conservative are much older than things that are liberal, so there are parallels in different countries. For example, Canada's healthcare system is only 50 or so years old.

 

[problemz]

Conservatives are actually better and are forward thinking and you can count on them. Progressives or liberals who think they are better than conservatives are not. Liberals are people who want others to do all the work and then give them half. Conservatives are the Little Red Hen types. Liberals are the pig and the others who want to eat the bread, but meanwhile lie around in the mud grunting in self-satisfaction about how the bread should be served to them hotter with more butter. Liberals are never satisfied. Conservatives understand that life is hard work, but that if you try hard, you might get something that you deserve. Liberals are people like Obama who make up absurd schemes like give everyone healthcare, which sounds nice, but then they forgot to think about how to pay for it, so then they make the IRS collect taxes from everyone, so you're actually paying for everybody else to have healthcare, but the system stinks because the IRS is running it, and they then use it to find out what TV programs you watch, and then charge you extra because you watch Fox and sports programs and believe in competition while you're supposed to just think about giving everything to them, because they are power hungry nuts who don't want to do any work. Inside of every liberal is a violent little Kim Jung-Un. Inside of every conservative is St. Paul.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I do not consider myself Conservative but believe out of the choices we have, their ideals are more correct and accurate than Liberals. Liberals profess good intentions and from what I have seen this is the path they walk. However liberals apparently do not live in the real world \ do not breath air from this planet. Theirs wants and ideals simply are not possible in the world as it exists today. Saying you want something and throwing money in its direction is not akin to making it a reality.

 

[Faye]

It has different meanings, but you might clear up the definition of conservatism if you link it to the concept of being fiscally conservative. Then the meaning should not vary by context so much.

 

[UnusedName84]

Conservative, Liberal, Democrat, Republican ... I think it all has considerably less significance in todays political climate.

The issues presented and debated are never really the ones that matter. They are just distracting talking points and things to debate to pick up sound bites and squabble with. At the core, They are all pretty much the same.

They are certainly some issues of consequence that are discussed, Such as privatizing health care and prisons, War, Economics, Foreign Policy. But how often are those issues *really* on the table and up for serious debate and change.

The whole of North America is going to have 'unwavering support' for Israel regardless of party.

The whole of North America is going to keep on fighting the imaginary 'War on Drugs' 'War on Terrorism'

The whole of North America is going to continue pushing for mass consumption of oil and more pipelines. Never once entertaining the idea of renewables or anything environmentally friendly.

 

[Stu]

Conservatives understand that life is hard work, but that if you try hard, you might get something that you deserve.

I am a progressive, i understand that life is hard work and that without trying failure is the only option.

For me the typical conservative is sick and tired of being told that they are wrong about what their impact on the world is.

The typical conservative thinks the world was better half a century ago, the unwashed masses are draining the nation of its wealth and that the education system is brainwashing the youth with "scientific" ideas about nature.

The typical conservative believes that if a lot of the world's population were to die that it would be a good thing.

The typical conservative believes that they would be fabulously wealthy except for the government lechery that sucks away at their life's work in taxes that are only being wasted coddling the lazy and the ignorant.

 

[Colt]

Hmmmm, it's an interesting question. Personally I'm a libertarian so I believe in liberal social values and freedoms but conservative fiscal values and freedoms, for the most part that is. I do believe in some social programs being necessary as well. But for the most part I want the governments hands out of mine and everyone else's lives.

 

[drewson]

I think that the US considers the ones in Canada, who want to privatize, conservative because that is conservative in the US. They are not considering the history of Canada, only the US.

 

[unpersons]

Conservatives are actually better and are forward thinking and you can count on them. Progressives or liberals who think they are better than conservatives are not. Liberals are people who want others to do all the work and then give them half. Conservatives are the Little Red Hen types. Liberals are the pig and the others who want to eat the bread, but meanwhile lie around in the mud grunting in self-satisfaction about how the bread should be served to them hotter with more butter. Liberals are never satisfied. Conservatives understand that life is hard work, but that if you try hard, you might get something that you deserve. Liberals are people like Obama who make up absurd schemes like give everyone healthcare, which sounds nice, but then they forgot to think about how to pay for it, so then they make the IRS collect taxes from everyone, so you're actually paying for everybody else to have healthcare, but the system stinks because the IRS is running it, and they then use it to find out what TV programs you watch, and then charge you extra because you watch Fox and sports programs and believe in competition while you're supposed to just think about giving everything to them, because they are power hungry nuts who don't want to do any work. Inside of every liberal is a violent little Kim Jung-Un. Inside of every conservative is St. Paul.

Did it hurt when you pulled all of that out of your ass?

Someone like you would be shocked to find out that in the 1900s to 1920s USA it was Republicans who were the progressives and ushered in the Progressive Era, banning drugs and alcohol with widespread support, thinking the roaring 20s and the economic prosperity that came with it would last forever. Then when their policies caused the clusterfuck known as the Great Depression, it came time for the conservatives (who would be called liberals/progressives by today's standards and often are, in kind of a retcon way) like Franklin D. Roosevelt to save the day.

If you think Obama is bad for his 39.5% tax on the richest of the rich and wanting universal healthcare, you would have felt totally out of place in 1933 when the top tax became a staggering 94%, which is actually lower than the 100% rate FDR wanted on all income above $250,000. Add in FDR's widely supported Social Security program and his proposed 2nd Bill of Rights which would have included assured employment with a living wage, freedom from unfair corporate competition/monopolies, medical care, housing, and education for all Americans and holy shit, you would probably rather be in the land of the Kims!

Someone like that, for the longest time considered a "classic" conservative as a contrast to the Republican progressives, would today make Barack Obama look like a hardcore Republican. Speaking of Republicans, I seem to remember now that the tax rate was lowered to 70% on the top earners in the era of Eisenhower (the 1950s) and stayed that way until Ronald Reagan dropped it so low he had to raise taxes 11 times.

We've certainly come along way from the 1930s and 1940s, where we realized that when the lowest members of society benefitted, the whole of society benefitted. Now people like you want an every man for himself attitude where if you can't get a minimum wage job you'll just have to starve, which helps no one except the hyper rich and wealthier-than-thou who own society.

Modern conservatism and neoliberal economics are a profound evil, serving only to extract money from the middle class and the working poor to give to the ruling class, the oligarchs, the robber barons of our age! And Obama is every bit as complicit in this scam as any of the other right-wingers. Under that socially liberal facade, he's another Ronald Reagan wannabe.

 

[problemz]

I wish that you had made sense so that I could respond. You seem to be both for and against FDR and Obama, for and against the Republicans, for and against total taxation. The thing to remember is that when the rich and industrious keep their wealth they can employ the poor. When they can't only government can give out checks in exchange for votes. This is Obama's plan.

Let the industrious remain industrious. It is private industry that will help us all including the poor.

Government seizure of private money leads to long-lasting depressions.

We could argue about what caused the Great Depression of course. It seems to be mostly caused by speculation in a stock market that had no expectations that anyone would ever have to pay up. This is what happened in 2007 as well. If you go back to Tulipomania, that's what caused that too.

There are some stock market reforms now, but very few. We need a fiscal conservative with a sense of realism who will fix this. You have to be able to pay back your debts. This is something that Obama just doesn't understand.

We ought to also stop trading with China. 70,000 die every year in industrial accidents in China so we can have chotchkes.

We ought to trade only with countries that allow total freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

 

[Stu]

The thing to remember is that when the rich and industrious keep their wealth they can employ the poor. When they can't only government can give out checks in exchange for votes. This is Obama's plan.

such a load of crap

 

[MindYourHead]

Speaking of Republicans, I seem to remember now that the tax rate was lowered to 70% on the top earners in the era of Eisenhower (the 1950s) and stayed that way until Ronald Reagan dropped it so low he had to raise taxes 11 times.

It was JFK that proposed dropping the top marginal rate from 91% to 65% in his '63 State of the Union Address.
At the time, Republicans were of the opinion that the country couldn't withstand such tax cuts. Imagine that?
The top rate was eventually dropped to 70% with the revenue act of 1964.

 

[problemz]

I doubt if "Republicans" have ever spoken with one voice. Maybe "some" Republicans were for this, or for that, but there is a lot of disagreement among Republicans and many different factions as there has been since Lincoln was the top member of the party. The debates last year highlighted some of these factional differences. You have Michelle Bachmann and Ron Paul for example in the same party with John McCain and Ted Cruz. There are only two major parties but all of us are individuals. Most "Republicans" have voted for Democrats (I have), and many "Democrats" have voted for Republicans (I have). People switch their affiliation and change their minds. We're not spark-spitting robots walking off the counter top into oblivion. It may seem that way, but that's the difference between humans and robots that the makers of robots can't quite bridge.

 

[Lerxst]

Let the industrious remain industrious. It is private industry that will help us all including the poor.

Government seizure of private money leads to long-lasting depressions.

Wow... I mean really... just... wow.

America has prospered under limited corporate/private interests. When companies were kept on very short leashes and under state regulation, had limited lifespans and charters that could be revoked on a moment's notice, this country had and abundance of growth and wealth - circa, pre-1900. When corporations started gain power and influence thanks mostly due to those same "industrious minds that are going to help us all", we sold off our currency and fell into a 100 year recession we still haven't escaped from.

Next time you feel like pulling some random, undocumented facts out of your ass like that, you might want to check them against the history that actually happened.

 

[MindYourHead]

I doubt if "Republicans" have ever spoken with one voice. Maybe "some" Republicans were for this, or for that, but there is a lot of disagreement among Republicans and many different factions as there has been since Lincoln was the top member of the party. The debates last year highlighted some of these factional differences. You have Michelle Bachmann and Ron Paul for example in the same party with John McCain and Ted Cruz. There are only two major parties but all of us are individuals. Most "Republicans" have voted for Democrats (I have), and many "Democrats" have voted for Republicans (I have). People switch their affiliation and change their minds. We're not spark-spitting robots walking off the counter top into oblivion. It may seem that way, but that's the difference between humans and robots that the makers of robots can't quite bridge.

Yeah, I tend to vote more for the person more than party ideology. In most elections, I will vote for some Democrats, and some Republicans, with a Libertarian and or Independent thrown in if I dislike other candidates.
I just don't see how some people can agree 100% with everything one party stands for, and vote 100% along the party line.

My world just isn't that black & white.

 

[the]

I am a progressive, i understand that life is hard work and that without trying failure is the only option.

For me the typical conservative is sick and tired of being told that they are wrong about what their impact on the world is.

The typical conservative thinks the world was better half a century ago, the unwashed masses are draining the nation of its wealth and that the education system is brainwashing the youth with "scientific" ideas about nature.

The typical conservative believes that if a lot of the world's population were to die that it would be a good thing.

The typical conservative believes that they would be fabulously wealthy except for the government lechery that sucks away at their life's work in taxes that are only being wasted coddling the lazy and the ignorant.

I think this applies to every political party. Otherwise I think you are spot on.

 

[Gul Dukat]

Conservatives are actually better and are forward thinking and you can count on them. Progressives or liberals who think they are better than conservatives are not. Liberals are people who want others to do all the work and then give them half. Conservatives are the Little Red Hen types. Liberals are the pig and the others who want to eat the bread, but meanwhile lie around in the mud grunting in self-satisfaction about how the bread should be served to them hotter with more butter. Liberals are never satisfied. Conservatives understand that life is hard work, but that if you try hard, you might get something that you deserve. Liberals are people like Obama who make up absurd schemes like give everyone healthcare, which sounds nice, but then they forgot to think about how to pay for it, so then they make the IRS collect taxes from everyone, so you're actually paying for everybody else to have healthcare, but the system stinks because the IRS is running it, and they then use it to find out what TV programs you watch, and then charge you extra because you watch Fox and sports programs and believe in competition while you're supposed to just think about giving everything to them, because they are power hungry nuts who don't want to do any work. Inside of every liberal is a violent little Kim Jung-Un. Inside of every conservative is St. Paul.

This is completely biased and wrong.

Public health care SAVES money-- it increases productivity (people can be treated before they get too sick to work) AND consumer spending (people can't buy things if they need to save all of their money for overpriced doctors who take pleasure in holding their patients health hostage). Taking money away from people who have too much and giving it back to people who will spend it on other things or even on completely new industries isn't the same as giving out freebies. It makes zero sense to give fewer people more money and expect them to invest, because the wealth doesn't trickle down-- unless you're talking about 'trickling down' into other countries where extreme wealth imbalance, constant suffering and enormous profits for the rich is a fact of life.

You're also spewing right-wing propaganda if you think that liberals want a welfare state-- they want mostly the same thing that conservatives want (more jobs, more prosperity), they just disagree on how they're going to reach that end. Welfare is supposed to be a deterrent against desperation, sickness, criminality, etc-- NOT the be-all end-all of human achievement, and exactly how conservatives keep missing this point is mind-blowing. If you didn't have any welfare whatsoever, then crime would either skyrocket or you would need a military presence in the poorer areas-- letting all of the wealth go only to the people who 'earned' it only happens in third world countries. NOT paying for these people to maintain an extremely basic subsistence (which when compared to the rich people whining about losing some of their disposable income is totally insignificant) would either result in fascism or anarchy, and chances are it would be the former. Conservatives tend to look at the people who abuse the system as if they're the norm when they're not… if you think that the welfare system needs to be more regulated to ensure that it isn't being exploited, then I can agree on that, but shutting it down entirely in favor of trusting the rich to be wholly generous and utterly selfless is preposterous.

And how could you possibly think that Conservatives are 'forward-thinking'??? The very meaning of the word 'conservative' means that they're NOT forward thinking and want to 'conserve' as in keep things as they are and NOT move forward-- ie: traditional values, morality, less regulation, fewer taxes on the rich, etc.