Ireland's New Abortion Laws

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Abortion is illegal in the republic of Ireland. The first abortion clinic in Northern Ireland was controversially opened in October of last year.

This week the government voted and have agreed abortion in the case of a) the mothers life being at risk or b) suicide risk is accepted, however they voted against rape and incest cases and women who seek out abortions in these cases will get 14 years jail time.

What are your views on abortion? What are your reasons?
 
Sending women to jail for wanting an abortion on their rape baby? Yeah, that's about the kind of social regressivism I would expect from a country with such a large percentage of devout Catholics.

And what do you mean by "suicide risk", do you mean if the woman threatens to commit suicide they will allow her to get an abortion?
 
Well. What other kinds of contraceptives are available? Do you guys have the drug Plan B?

I am not so hot on abortion for myself. If other people want to do it, that's fine. However I know some people who have had multiple abortions like fucking idiots because they couldn't get their pill right or didn't wear a condom. In cases such as that, I disagree with it. It shouldn't be used as a form of birth control. It takes a massive toll on your body and your mind to go through with something like that and I often feel that people don't fully do their research and think that aborting the fetus won't have any ill effects.

In terms of rape and such, if they really don't want to grant abortions for that they should investigate the mother's wellbeing and ability to care and provide for the child. If she can't, she should be able to abort it. But I suppose the idea is to carry it to term and give it away. Who knows.
 
Abortion became legal in the US in 1973. I remember when it was illegal and the violence that happened after it became legal. Both of those times produced some pretty horrible things; women were giving themselves abortions, some doctors and some who were not doctors were charging a lot of money to give abortions in unsterile places, organizations like planned parenthood were bombed, etc. These were some pretty ugly times in US history. Personally, I believe in a womans right to decide what happens to her own body. However, I also believe in acting responsibly when it comes to sex, birth control, and pregnancy.
 
SealHammer said:
the kind of social regressivism I would expect from a country with such a large percentage of devout Catholics.
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Personally I'm pro life; I wouldn't abort my own kids, unformed or not. Socio-politically, pro choice.
 
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No serious effort has been made to normalise sexuality and sexual intimacy so the deviance that leads to rape (incestual or otherwise) is allowed to prosper.

This issue is closer to the root of the problem than whether we should or shouldn't destroy the result of this species-wide distorted view of sex as largely shameful.

I would not want any child of mine aborted ideally because I feel the wheels are in motion so to speak long before birth.
But then I suppose it would be my responsibility to not put myself and my unborn into that situation.
 
[MENTION=5297]Katniss Neverbeef[/MENTION], do you have a link to a website where we can actually read the law or anything of that nature? I'm interested in seeing the specifics on this bit of policy.

SpecialEdition said:
Well. What other kinds of contraceptives are available? Do you guys have the drug Plan B?

I am not so hot on abortion for myself. If other people want to do it, that's fine. However I know some people who have had multiple abortions like fucking idiots because they couldn't get their pill right or didn't wear a condom. In cases such as that, I disagree with it. It shouldn't be used as a form of birth control. It takes a massive toll on your body and your mind to go through with something like that and I often feel that people don't fully do their research and think that aborting the fetus won't have any ill effects.

In terms of rape and such, if they really don't want to grant abortions for that they should investigate the mother's wellbeing and ability to care and provide for the child. If she can't, she should be able to abort it. But I suppose the idea is to carry it to term and give it away. Who knows.
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I'm totally with you right up until you start laying out the particulars for an "acceptable" exclusion for rape victims.

The plain truth is that allowing women to get abortions for pregnancies which are life-threatening, then excluding victims of rape from eligibility, isn't remotely acceptable. Legislators are in the wrong when they create such an exclusion. After a woman has had force and violence visited upon her by forceful penetration, forcing her to then carry the fetus for which her rapist is responsible, for three quarters of a year and through all the stress and physical weakness and mental fatigue that is induced by pregnancy, is a ridiculous and harmful policy that ultimately amounts to politically-sanctioned victim shaming.

I can tell you right now that if I was a female rape victim, impregnated as a result of my rape and then refused by a bunch of old white christian men the responsibility of deciding whether I should carry that constant reminder of my violation, I would firebomb their fucking houses.
 
SealHammer said:
[MENTION=5297]Katniss Neverbeef[/MENTION], do you have a link to a website where we can actually read the law or anything of that nature? I'm interested in seeing the specifics on this bit of policy.



I'm totally with you right up until you start laying out the particulars for an "acceptable" exclusion for rape victims.

The plain truth is that allowing women to get abortions for pregnancies which are life-threatening, then excluding victims of rape from eligibility, isn't remotely acceptable. Legislators are in the wrong when they create such an exclusion. After a woman has had force and violence visited upon her by forceful penetration, forcing her to then carry the fetus for which her rapist is responsible, for three quarters of a year and through all the stress and physical weakness and mental fatigue that is induced by pregnancy, is a ridiculous and harmful policy that ultimately amounts to politically-sanctioned victim shaming.

I can tell you right now that if I was a female rape victim, impregnated as a result of my rape and then refused by a bunch of old white christian men the responsibility of deciding whether I should carry that constant reminder of my violation, I would firebomb their fucking houses.
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The thought of it doesn't upset me all that much.
 
I believe we have to be mindful of killing, killing anything. Even bacteria.

At the same time I don't consider it to be entirely forbidden. Which is why I'm not a strict vegan for example - farming and harvesting still results in the death of animals no matter how small, and to say that it's ok if the field mice or microorganisms die would only be putting an arbitrary value of worth on life for my own convenience.

So I don't think it should be entirely illegal, and I also don't think it should be encouraged.
 
I'm for full abortion rights w/o caveats other than the trimester thing. Imo, better aborted early than born to parents who don't want it or love it. If it hits a certain point of physical/cognitive maturity in the womb, then I think it should be illegal, but the option should be open to give the child up for adoption.

While the nature or frequency of abortions might be a telling indicator of a person's character in some cases, I don't think it should fundamentally have anything to do with impeding a person's right to opt for the procedure. However, I would acknowledge that things get murky in terms of who's financially responsible, especially if the burden rests on the public and the person in question proves to be repeatedly and shamelessly irresponsible.
 
If I remember correctly the premise behind legalizing abortion in the states was based on rights to privacy. Basically, what a person decides to do with their body is their decision, whereas what a person decides to do with their unborn child is a moral decision. If I remember correctly, this is the distinction that was made when abortion was legalized in the states. This decision separated church and state jurisdiction in this area. It also gave so many people the right to choose what is morally right for them and what is not. Choice is a really nice thing to have especially when you've experienced not having it. As far as I know, there were a couple of states in the US who were performing legal abortions before abortion became nationally legal. However, these states placed restrictions on abortions that may have been similar to the restrictions that Ireland is incorporating now, I'm not sure but a little research could probably tell you that.
 
Personally I'm pro prevention. (Anyone should be able to get the birth control of choice for free and to be paid for by the government.) But in the case of rape/ incest or medically necessary I believe you should be able to get an abortion.
 
My mother works as a recovery nurse in an abortion clinic. I supported my mother through her application process and I support her completely in her work.

A number of her patients have been minors who have been raped by relatives. My mother's work enables the state to intervene in these cases. My mother has learned of and prevented impending cases of FGM on minors. Services provided by abortion clinics do not stop at abortion, they include sexual health services, contraception services, and other social services.

I support legal regulation of abortion to control environments in which abortions are conducted and to restrict late term abortions.

I get annoyed by abortion advocates who make the argument that abortion is always a difficult decision for every woman who has an abortion. That is not the case at all. The problem with this argument is that abortion is so crucial to society that it doesn't matter whether or not it is always a difficult decision. It is simply an absolutely necessary decision to be able to make.

I am aware of the dark side of abortion services, including as mentioned on this thread, the individual high users of this service. I do not think that using this service takes a toll on the mind of every person who uses the service. I also have a 100% judgment free attitude to users of the service. It seems obvious to me that judgment is not an appropriate or effective way to resolve any social problems associated with the service.

The question of rape is immaterial to the question of abortion. I don't know how women are supposed to adequately prove that they have been raped in time to have an early stages abortion and the idea of that is so offensive. Women should be able to have an abortion regardless of whether they have been raped.

Abortion is an essential service to equality in a free society. I am impatient with people who are advocates against abortion. I think very little of them.
 
invisible said:
Abortion is an essential service to equality in a free society. I am impatient with people who are advocates against abortion. I think very little of them.
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Yes, a woman has to have control over her body. If this is denied, and she ends up with no choice but to have a termination illegally,- the cost and the potential risks and lack of support add to her burden. Also why criminalise a woman for insisting on her right for choice, which may well be for very good reason?
 
invisible said:
The question of rape is immaterial to the question of abortion. I don't know how women are supposed to adequately prove that they have been raped in time to have an early stages abortion and the idea of that is so offensive. Women should be able to have an abortion regardless of whether they have been raped.
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This is an extremely good and very valid point. another reason abortion should be outright legalised. I could see it happening the Irish government making abortion legal in cases of rape and then tying things up in court to the point abortion is no longer a viable option.

I have been firmly in the Repeal the 8th camp. We'll just have to see what happens.
 
LittleLissa said:
Yes, a woman has to have control over her body. If this is denied, and she ends up with no choice but to have a termination illegally,- the cost and the potential risks and lack of support add to her burden. Also why criminalise a woman for insisting on her right for choice, which may well be for very good reason?
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Yes. This has been a huge part of the Repeal the 8th Campaign. Irish women in need of abortion have to travel over to England to have the procedure done. This is technically illegal. A number of years ago there was a case of a 14 year old girl who was stopped and arrested by the police for preparing to travel to the UK.

In the last year or two there have been people creating anonymous accounts and live tweeting the stages of their abortion journey to the UK.

There have been cases of women ending up in hospital in very bad ways because they have ordered abortion pills illegally online and they haven't been good pills.

We do have a "morning after" pill, but considering this pill is only effective for 24 hours and then 50% effective for 48 hours it doesn't seem much good. Birth control is all well and good but it is definitely not 100% effective and people do still get pregnant despite being on birth control.
 
Katniss Neverbeef said:
We do have a "morning after" pill, but considering this pill is only effective for 24 hours and then 50% effective for 48 hours it doesn't seem much good. Birth control is all well and good but it is definitely not 100% effective and people do still get pregnant despite being on birth control.
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Awesome point. And it reminds me of what Cornerstone said about sexuality. The woman is always held responsible for the pregnancy, even though it may not at all be her fault, as in the case of contraceptive failure. It is just assumed that it is her fault, that she is irresponsible. It's as though she's being shamed and punished for being sexual.
 
invisible said:
Awesome point. And it reminds me of what Cornerstone said about sexuality. The woman is always held responsible for the pregnancy, even though it may not at all be her fault, as in the case of contraceptive failure. It is just assumed that it is her fault, that she is irresponsible. It's as though she's being shamed and punished for being sexual.
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YEP. As a woman who has first hand experience of this, it makes me angry when men tell me what I should do with my body. I had a child and that child has been 100% my responsiblity. Her father took off and has done whatever it is feels like with zero responsibility. People look down on you, judge you and ridicule you. It's even *my* fault that her father doesn't pay maintenance.

Pregnancy is no picnic. It ruined my health and I have had long term problems as a result. If I got pregnant tomorrow I would seriously considering aborting.

It's well and good to have your theoreticals and morals on the subject, but the reality can be such a grey area.
 
Katniss Neverbeef said:
YEP. As a woman who has first hand experience of this, it makes me angry when men tell me what I should do with my body. I had a child and that child has been 100% my responsiblity. Her father took off and has done whatever it is feels like with zero responsibility. People look down on you, judge you and ridicule you. It's even *my* fault that her father doesn't pay maintenance.

Pregnancy is no picnic. It ruined my health and I have had long term problems as a result. If I got pregnant tomorrow I would seriously considering aborting.

It's well and good to have your theoreticals and morals on the subject, but the reality can be such a grey area.
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People never know what other people go through. Which is completely fine, but it becomes a problem when people don't know that they never know what other people go through. And an even bigger problem when they assume that they do know.
 
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