INFJs & Ni: problem solving

[Architect]

In my introduction thread I mentioned I'm married to a INFJ, and there are some things about her that I struggle.

For example, one is how my SO doesn't seem to want to find solutions, but would rather find new possibilities and problems. I believe this is due to the Ni dominant, but it may be a personality issue and/or a male-female difference.

For example, there will be something troubling her, say she wants meaningful work, a better wardrobe, or recently we've had some struggles around housing issues. I'll start by trying to find a solution. Actually I've learned better and I'll start by discussing it with her! But at some point I will steer it towards "OK, how can we do something about it?" But as I'm trying to steer things toward a conclusion, she'll keep throwing up new possibilities. These will be other problems, things that are bothering her, etc.

For example take wardrobe. She'll complain she doesn't have any clothes. I'll tell her to buy some new clothes. She'll say there isn't any time for that. I'll say take the time, I'll watch the kids. She'll say there are no stores locally that have anything she wants. And then it goes on, and on. Eventually I'll get frustrated and angry, because there's no end to it. Does she really want to solve the problem? Or just tear my ear off complaining about it?

So I'm curious on your thoughts about this

• Is this a INFJ trait? Female trait? Personal trait?
• How should I respond? Just listen and nod my head ("yes dear …"), try to help her (how do I keep from getting angry?) or ignore?
• How can I help her break this habit? Should I?

Thanks!

 

[this is only temporary]

Hi! Real quickly --- I think there might be something else bothering her and maybe she can't quite verbalize it, so it is easier to complain about clothes and things.

•Is this a INFJ trait? Female trait? Personal trait? I think it may be a little of each

•How should I respond? she would probably appreciate you listening, talking, suggesting things (kindly and gently)Just listen and nod my head ("yes dear …"), No no, engage in dialogue. Really listen. She probably relies on you to keep from being an idiot sometimes! try to help her (how do I keep from getting angry?) Maybe ask more questions and seek for more information? Plain old ask "Okay, what's really bothering you?"
You have my deepest sympathy if you are tempted to lock her in a closet when she gets like this. Really, you do. But you love her, so I would suggest seeking more information. or ignore?Maybe sometimes!

•How can I help her break this habit? Should I? Yes... maybe... you could help her see self-destructive patterns and give her an outlet to express herself.


Good luck. She is lucky to have you as a husband, I'm sure.

 

[Architect]

Yes often times there is something else bothering her. I can recognize that mode pretty well, that is when she starts to amp up and throws out a million things. I can diffuse that easily by asking what is really wrong and pushing until she breaks.

I'm talking about something different here, which is when there really IS a problem to be solved. Like housing, as I mentioned. She'll come up with ten thousand reasons why this house doesn't work, that doesn't work, etc etc etc. I go into problem solving mode and she just wants to open up possibilities and point out problems, as far as I can tell.

 

[this is only temporary]

I'm talking about something different here, which is when there really IS a problem to be solved. Like housing, as I mentioned. She'll come up with ten thousand reasons why this house doesn't work, that doesn't work, etc etc etc. I go into problem solving mode and she just wants to open up possibilities and point out problems, as far as I can tell.

Hm... does she really not want to move, perhaps? Or maybe she is overly concerned about what people will think about the house she lives in? I know home/housing can be a hugely emotional issue for a lot of women. People get downright illogical about home and houses, they really do, it can cause tremendous stress. They go temporarily insane. (I'm not kidding, there's a term called homebuyer's insanity. Not sure if it is really in the mental health bible or not.)

Have you all bought houses before and are you comfortable and familiar with the process? And to be honest, after the RE meltdown, you can hardly blame people for being a little overly anxious about such a purchase. Possibly even to over-dramatize it. This can be doubly-true if she is a stay-at-home mom, because when you are a stay-at-home mom, your house and your neighbors are such a HUGE influence on your life and your children's life. One can feel trapped quite easily, and therefore feel more pressure to make the "right" decision.

 

[CindyLou]

She's venting. She wants you to say, "I'm sorry you feel like you don't have any clothes. It must be frustrating blah blah blah..." first. Then once she feels like you understand her then you can offer up a solution. If you solve the problem for her right away she feels invalidated in her frustration because she knows she can solve her own problems. I would tell her to purchase clothing online. If she doesn't like it she can send it back. That takes care of everything. She is exploring like you said, but the real problem to be solved isn't what she is telling you. It's deeper...especially with the housing. Try validating how she feels more so she can get to the real problem.

 

[the]

You are supposed to be saying emotionally supportive things instead of fixing her problem. Typical woman bs. When ever she says it just reply: that sucks. It works better than it seems it should.

 

[Architect]

Hm... does she really not want to move, perhaps?

That is just an example, and in that case we have to move. Like I said there are times she needs to make a decision and just prevaricates.

Have you all bought houses before and are you comfortable and familiar with the process? And to be honest, after the RE meltdown, you can hardly blame people for being a little overly anxious about such a purchase.

Actually we sold a house at the very peak of the market and have substantially increased the profit through my INTP investing abilities Again this is an example not worth focusing specifically on; we're still renting a house waiting for RE bottom (hint we're not there yet despite what the nabobs say) and now we need to find a new house. Instead of focusing on what we need to do - find a new house - she'll throw up barriers to it. Extraordinarily frustrating to a problem solving INTP.

She's venting. She wants you to say, "I'm sorry you feel like you don't have any clothes. It must be frustrating blah blah blah...first. Then once she feels like you understand her then you can offer up a solution. If you solve the problem for her right away she feels invalidated in her frustration because she knows she can solve her own problems. I would tell her to purchase clothing online. If she doesn't like it she can send it back. That takes care of everything. She is exploring like you said, but the real problem to be solved isn't what she is telling you. It's deeper...especially with the housing. Try validating how she feels more so she can get to the real problem.

That's what I thought, but some of these things have been going on for some 20 odd years. Like the clothes examples, she wants a better wardrobe, OK sounds good, even though I think what she has isn't as bad as she makes out. No matter, if it's a problem why not just take care of it and buy some clothes? Which she does ... but then the point will come up again when she's stressed. I'm happy to just listen, but I get frustrated because it seems like a broken record sometimes.

I can relate to this better if I can understand the mechanism. Is it just venting like kicking the dog? Or is there a tie in with Ni, as I suspect? She sometimes seems more interested in finding new possibilities (I don't want a house with windows by the door; that neighborhood has too few houses, that has too many, etc) rather than solving it and moving on.

 

[Azazel]

Is this a INFJ trait? Female trait? Personal trait?
I don't know because it isn't my trait. I've seen it in many not-INFJs too.
How should I respond? Just listen and nod my head ("yes dear …"), try to help her (how do I keep from getting angry?) or ignore?
I second the online purchasing. I do it that way, it really takes care of everything unless she tells you "it's stressy because the clothes won't fit".
How can I help her break this habit? Should I?
Breaking habits is hard and if it's her personality trait then I'm not sure it's possible. But you know her better. I'd say give it a try.

 

[moonlightam]

I have to agree with the idea of her not really wanting anything solving, she might just feel like she's not fitting in and no amount of quality clothes will solve the wardrobe problem. I remember myself with shopping for new clothes, everytime I'd come back with all the new stuff I liked and then sometimes as early as the same evening it felt like I was back to where I started. But then this problem frustrated me to such a level that I gave up solving it Ive refocused on to something else. If I'd really need something though - I still go nuts about it, like she with the house situation I have this too, I'll go to 536 shops (yeah, I just randomly typed the number, but its not that far from the truth lol), inspect every single, lets say, pair of shoes, and I'll find all possible potential flaws first - sole too thin, stitching not too good, not warm enough, heel will rub, toes will be too squeezed, etc etc, jesus, I'm a maniac, I admit it It might be coming from this idealism that many of us have in one form or another. I used to get my bf this frustrated too, it took me a long time to realize that there was no solution to my overthinking everything. For me, when I'm in this moaning and complaining mode, the best "cure" happens to be a tight hug and a little bit of quiet understanding, if a wardrobe is such a big problem, then she just probably has difficulty presenting herself to people and not only externally. And I think that its not only you who should try and deal with this - she too needs to become aware of the upset she causes by this behaviour and study herself a bit more to understand things and sometimes hop into your shoes. The problems need to be looked at by both parties (I mean relationship problems this time), one-sided effort isnt gonna take you a long way, methinks.

 

[this is only temporary]

^^Yes, I've got to say I'm not really like that either when it comes to making decisions. Or buying clothes! It may help to remind her that some decisions are a. not all that important; i.e. who cares if the clothes aren't perfect, and 2. not always permanent, i.e. that's what exchange policies are for...

Possibly she feels guilty or worried about spending money, this may especially true if she herself is not working. I do know women who stress majorly about that sort of thing and will not buy things for themselves, like ever. Reassuring her that it is okay with you and you fully support her clothes-buying decisions may help.

 

[Paladin-X]

Presenting of problems, but the unwillingness to do anything about it is the conflict between Ni vs Ti for an INFJ.

I believe that Fi/Ti is the source of one's self motivation or self will. Because in an INFJ it is a lesser function, decisions involving Self will be overly difficult. The INFJ in her sees the wants, problems etc. The shadow ISTP in her nitpicks on all the details of said wants, problems, etc.

Decisions involving people excluding Self are usually easy for us. NOTE: This does not mean we are always right, only that we make decisions easier this way.

Like INTJs, INFJs are problem-solvers. Giving her solutions to her problems is invalidating as CindyLou pointed out, but also it takes away the challenge of solving the problem (which I guess is also invalidating). If you can find a way to guide her decision making process, perhaps by some clever questioning process and supporting and/or firm statements. This is even more effective when presented in the form of a problem. If you want to offer a solution, immediately start criticizing. She may agree, or it might trigger her to start countering it. And when you do start self-criticizing your solutions, they must be technical problems, not people problems. So for example, if you told her that she could go buy some clothes on Saturday, oh but there isn't time because of X/Y/Z to do that day. Not because it's her sister's birthday or something like that. The gears will start to turn and she will find a way to falsify your statement when it is a technical problem.

Ni+Ti requires boundaries to work from. Ni is boundless and Ti is forever critical/analytical. Keeping this in the back of your mind for a moment, while stepping out of the MBTI realm and going into the romantic one -- Without knowing what her favourite clothing store was, online or otherwise, I would present a personally made voucher for a specific sum in order to buy clothing. But it has to be the result of a romantic gesture or mystery game (such as a mini-scavenger hunt around the house). I would do this because I am trying to show that I care, I listen, and I love her; and not simply doing it because she mentioned it as if to imply she wanted me to do it (if that makes sense). I would write down in the letter or card to her how much I appreciate her and I know that she wanted to buy some new clothes, but felt guilty or whatever reason about doing so -- so as a token of my undying love, I offer you this voucher for $xxx to buy whatever clothing you desire, guilt-free/worry-free/etc. You could even take it a step further by making it a limited time offer; and go even further by presenting a picture of an absolutely horrendous outfit or a really slutty piece of lingerie and tell her that if the coupon expires unused, this is what you will buy for her.

These are just some ideas. If you would like to try my ideas, try to personalize them. She will recognize immediately, (consciously or subconsciously) whether it comes from you or not. We are very aware and suspicious creatures, and sensitive to unexplained changes in our surroundings.

 

[Faye]

So I'm curious on your thoughts about this

• Is this a INFJ trait? Female trait? Personal trait?
• How should I respond? Just listen and nod my head ("yes dear …"), try to help her (how do I keep from getting angry?) or ignore?
• How can I help her break this habit? Should I?

Thanks!

1. I'm gonna say its a female trait and to a large extent, a personal trait (well, men do it too a lot). Generally, being upset about something like clothes, food, etc. is a sign of being upset with oneself (i.e. "all these clothes make me look fat", "none of this food is healthy", or something along those lines).
2. I think your best bet is to just hug her and tell her how much you love her and to not worry so much about the issue because we all know that, for issues like that, they could be solved relatively easily if they were the real problem. My guess is that the real issue has to do with feeling insecure in some fashion, but it would most likely be a very bad idea to actually suggest that to her. There are instances where something like clothing can be a real issue, like if you're really strapped for cash, but otherwise I'd say it really has more to do with how one feels about oneself.

Also, according to my father, saying "yes dear" is always the easiest thing to do.

3. Well, you could try to reassure her. You could also guilt trip her as to the damage that negativity can cause if you want to be mean: http://www.christianpost.com/news/listening-to-negative-people-will-make-you-dumb-80655/

If she owns any fashion magazines or womens' magazines, it'd be a good step to hide them somewhere she can't find them when she isn't looking. The biggest thing, however, is to involve people in your social circle who don't obsess about those sorts of things and to just be supportive in general.

Or you could just take up meditation to focus on freedom from desires and aversions (which an INFJ might be into), but meditation is my recommendation to everyone for everything. The goal, however, is to adjust yourself mentally so that you don't feel so negative or like these issues are dragging you or her down- if they even still seem like issues after you practice.

Hope this helps.

 

[CindyLou]

That is just an example, and in that case we have to move. Like I said there are times she needs to make a decision and just prevaricates.



Actually we sold a house at the very peak of the market and have substantially increased the profit through my INTP investing abilities Again this is an example not worth focusing specifically on; we're still renting a house waiting for RE bottom (hint we're not there yet despite what the nabobs say) and now we need to find a new house. Instead of focusing on what we need to do - find a new house - she'll throw up barriers to it. Extraordinarily frustrating to a problem solving INTP.



That's what I thought, but some of these things have been going on for some 20 odd years. Like the clothes examples, she wants a better wardrobe, OK sounds good, even though I think what she has isn't as bad as she makes out. No matter, if it's a problem why not just take care of it and buy some clothes? Which she does ... but then the point will come up again when she's stressed. I'm happy to just listen, but I get frustrated because it seems like a broken record sometimes.

I can relate to this better if I can understand the mechanism. Is it just venting like kicking the dog? Or is there a tie in with Ni, as I suspect? She sometimes seems more interested in finding new possibilities (I don't want a house with windows by the door; that neighborhood has too few houses, that has too many, etc) rather than solving it and moving on.

Answering a statement such as "I don't have any clothes" with your 'solution' for her to "Go out and buy some" is patronizing. It's like if you told someone that you couldn't find your keys and they responded with "Where did you have them last?" Did you really think that she couldn't figure out that ridiculously simple solution on her own? Most of the time these frustrations about clothes, homes, food etc are not what they appear on the surface. I wouldn't say that it's fair for her to expect you to intuit how she feels though just because that's how she functions, but in the future I would just offer support instead of solutions unless you're prepared to offer a real one which means you'll have to understand her a bit better to figure out the real problem... [MENTION=834]Dragon[/MENTION]'s post was great on how to help her feel better about herself and how to help her feel supported and validated.

Did you ask her what type of house she had pictured in her mind? She may not want to purchase a home yet, or enjoys the freedom of renting which is why she is throwing up the barriers. To find this out, ask her if she would like to build your next home and if she would like to purchase a lot. If she doesn't want to do that then you have your answer. After owning a home and renting she might think that owning a home is overrated, too much work and may want to keep renting. It's unfortunate that she is not just telling you how she feels but maybe she doesn't know how she feels. I don't know.

 

[ahw]

My husband used to complain about this in me a lot. We have had a number of those long discussions that had this issue at the core. You know, those discussions that you stay up until 4 am talking about even though you have to be at work at 7 because they are important to the very foundation of your marriage. Those sorts of discussions. My husband has Aspergers and it literally was driving him completely crazy because he would propose a solution and I would only sigh and pull out the next obstacle I saw that was in the way.

What we both learned is that these are the moments when I am in the most need of him to very clearly assure me that he is capable of taking care of my problem, even if to him it seems silly and unnecessary. We always have these talks in our room with the door shut. No TV, no radio, no computers, no children, no phone so we are assured that the other is 100% engaged.

The wardrobe example is one that I, myself, have had an issue with and my husband and I went round and round about for years. He would say, "Here's $100, go get yourself something" and then think the matter was closed. For me it only made the issue worse because I did not have access to the stores that carried the clothing I wanted, online sales were difficult because if it didn't fit or looked different when I got it then I might procrastinate on sending it back. Or, if something came up and we were short on finances then I would never be able to wear the clothes that I did buy because I would feel horribly guilty that the money was "wasted" on a shirt that I honestly didn't NEED but only WANTED.

We found a way to deal with this issue and for the last 10 years it has worked in every single situation.

I say, "I need new clothes, the ones I have are old-ugly-don't fit-no longer my style-I don't feel pretty-insert whatever excuse here." He immediately stops what he is doing or if he is at work he acknowledges that he understands I need to talk with him after supper. He asks me to discuss with him WHY I feel like I need new clothes. I will tell him any of my excuses and he starts asking more specific questions. Often, it unearths issues I did not even realize were actually issues until I started talking about them out loud with him. Sometimes when I answer him, my answers are thoughts that are brand new to me in that moment. We have come to understand this and accept this.

Because we have been married for a very long time, he is very aware of how to help me navigate through my issues, and it does take someone else to help me navigate through them because I am supposed to be the 'strong one'. I am the one supposed to have it all together, I am the one who is supposed to be the pillar that stands firm in any storm. Realizing that I have issues is difficult because to me it means I am weak and if I am weak then my value in this relationship goes down. We practice the art of "What I hear you say is ... " When I say something he will repeat back to me what he hears me say and what HE thinks I mean by it. It is not often that he understands what I mean the first time i say something. Even after all these years, I still have to say something multiple ways using different words until he is able to repeat back to me what it is that I actually mean.

When he is able to say back to me what it is that I am actually trying to say THEN he offers to get me new clothes, look for a new house, get a puppy, buy a new car, etc... and I feel completely at ease because I know that he truly and honestly understands my concerns and worries and he takes that into the highest of considerations when making a choice. I am secure knowing that he will take care of anything that may come up such as take a weekend to drive me to an outlet mall 50 miles away and make it a mini getaway for us so I can look through clothes, find 3 different houses that he is happy with and thinks will satisfy me and then takes me to them to show them to me while telling me all of the details about the house that he knows will make me feel secure, etc...

The bottom line is that I know he HEARS me and he wasn't just listening to me talk. When we first started doing this it would take us something days to finish one conversation. As time has gone by we can have those conversations in an hour or so these days. And the same is true when he needs to talk. We do the same thing and I tell him what I hear him to be saying. That is the core issue for us and to me, it sounds like it might be the issue your wife is having.

Both of you may be using the same words but you have different understandings of what those words mean. She says red and you think of candy apply red but what SHE thinks of as red is more of a burnt orange color. Neither of you may understand that you both have slightly different internal definitions for the same words or sentiments. Maybe you two can try sitting down and talking it out in great detail. It may take a couple of days to have a single conversation. That's ok. It's good to take a break from it for a few hours so you both can think over and process what was just said and then come back and talk it through more.

Not sure if this will help, hope it does.

 

[Patrick Williams]

In my introduction thread I mentioned I'm married to a INFJ, and there are some things about her that I struggle.

For example, one is how my SO doesn't seem to want to find solutions, but would rather find new possibilities and problems. I believe this is due to the Ni dominant, but it may be a personality issue and/or a male-female difference.

For example, there will be something troubling her, say she wants meaningful work, a better wardrobe, or recently we've had some struggles around housing issues. I'll start by trying to find a solution. Actually I've learned better and I'll start by discussing it with her! But at some point I will steer it towards "OK, how can we do something about it?" But as I'm trying to steer things toward a conclusion, she'll keep throwing up new possibilities. These will be other problems, things that are bothering her, etc.

For example take wardrobe. She'll complain she doesn't have any clothes. I'll tell her to buy some new clothes. She'll say there isn't any time for that. I'll say take the time, I'll watch the kids. She'll say there are no stores locally that have anything she wants. And then it goes on, and on. Eventually I'll get frustrated and angry, because there's no end to it. Does she really want to solve the problem? Or just tear my ear off complaining about it?

So I'm curious on your thoughts about this

• Is this a INFJ trait? Female trait? Personal trait?
• How should I respond? Just listen and nod my head ("yes dear …"), try to help her (how do I keep from getting angry?) or ignore?
• How can I help her break this habit? Should I?

Thanks!

That's a tough one....hmmm....

First, I would say it is probably more of a male/female difference than an MBTI thing because my wife does the same thing and she is an ESFJ. Men, by and large, want to solve the problem whereas women, by and large, want to just share their frustrations and vent their feelings.

I used to give my answer relavtively quickly like you do and got the same results (or similiar) because she was not looking for an answer because, like CindyLou already said, she KNOWS she can go out and buy more clothes (see, we are not really being as sharp as we thought stating the obvious, huh? : - )

What I do now, and have done for awhile, is just to act more like a companion than a problem solver and try to understand what she is saying. For example, let's take your wardrobe issue - instead of offering a quick, pat solution, engage her in dialogue like this:

Wife: I don't have any clothes to wear!
You: That is because you have gained 20lbs in the last year....what do you expect?!

LOL...just kidding, that is an example of what you DON"T want to say.....ok, here is the real dialogue:

You: Why do you say that? You have a whole closet full...what do you mean? (engage her in dailogue)
Wife: None of them fit!
You: I think they fit just fine on you but....if you have lost weight lately, maybe you should get some of your favorite ones in smaller sizes! : - ) (ok, maybe this is a little white lie and you know it but it is called, "diplomacy" : - )
Wife: I wish that were the problem! Unfortunately, weight LOSS is not my issue lately! Look at me! I am 48 and my boobs sag, my tummy is not as trim as it used to be...

OK, right now, you are in the middle of a mine field...one false move and, "BOOM!" there you go...so let's traverse this carefully....

You: ...Honey, your breasts are beautiful to me! So your not in your twenties any more, big deal....no one stays in their twenties...look at me, I'm not the young stud-muffin I used to be either...
Wife: So you're saying I am not attractive anymore?

You're still in the mind field but getting out of it....let's keep going....but be very careful here...

You: I did not say you're not attractive because you are...I am just saying that none of us look like we did 20 or 30 years ago and that is OK...you are still a beautiful woman...what do you think about me, am I still as handsome as I ever was?

This is called controlling the train of thought and switching the focus : - ).....

OK, I will not keep going because it could rabbit trail all over the place but here is the point...

She is not looking for a solution (at least not as point-blank as us men would like to give it and get back to whatever it is we are doing) but dialogue...

Most likely, clothes aren't the real problem but her self-image as she is getting older...and that is a perception thing, not a store bought thing (although some things can be bought from a plastic surgeon, I suppose).

Maybe she does not REALLY want to move so she him-haws, vasilates and brings up a thousand problems? You need to discuss this with her.

Quite trying to solve her problems and talk with her without trying to problem solve but just listen and ask questions to draw her out of herself.

At first, this is VERY tiring for us men and even irritating at times but, if you exercise a little patience and try and explore issues as a couple, it will become very rewarding in the long run.

I can pretty safely tell you that the wardrobe thing is more about her image of herself than her clothes....just talk with her like she was your best friend - not to solve her problems but to dialogue with her and find out what the real issue is.

I hope this made sense and was a little helpful (if not, then just ignore it).

I hope the best for you two.

 

[CindyLou]

hahaha or [MENTION=5927]Patrick Williams[/MENTION] instead of all that

Sometime spontaneously walk up to her and tell her how beautiful you think she is with sincerity. Oh yeah, and that you love her. Then grab her from the back of her neck and gently pull her towards you and give her a passionate kiss. Do this regularly. No more minefields!

 

[Patrick Williams]

hahaha or [MENTION=5927]Patrick Williams[/MENTION] instead of all that

Sometime spontaneously walk up to her and tell her how beautiful you think she is with sincerity. Oh yeah, and that you love her. Then grab her from the back of her neck and gently pull her towards you and give her a passionate kiss. Do this regularly. No more minefields!

That is the BEST advice yet! I am going to take your advice and do just that! : - )

 

[Architect]

Thanks for the insight.

I think I finally understand. The genius Dr. A.J. Drenth has a new article

INTP-INFJ Relationships & Compatibility: Part I

NFJs want a partner who is capable of understanding and appreciating their most authentic selves (i.e., understanding and appreciating their Ni and its insights). INFJs often feel frustrated when the world doesn’t see or appreciate them for their true inner nature. Sure, others can appreciate the INFJ’s warmth and people-skills, but it is Ni, not Fe, that is the core of the INFJ’s identity. Moreover, when INFJs do venture to share their Ni insights or subversive ideas, they often feel that others really don’t understand them, don’t care to hear them, or end up looking at the INFJ as though she were crazy.

 

[Paladin-X]

Hahaha! Indeed. I concur wholeheartedly with that quote.

 

[grt$5vb]

It sounds like she's scared and digging in her heels to avoid change. I tailspin when overstressed and venting. I need to feel understood, but it has to be abruptly cut off at some point. We get lost inside our insecurities when focusing our imaginations on negative issues, and we have to be forced to relax. Something totally mindless will help. Yoga, a movie and cuddling, perhaps a walk helps refocus me and puts me in a mindset to appreciate my partner rather than vexing him for trying to use logic to solve my problems.