[INFJ] INFJs, deep feelings and personal values

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Actually... I was just thinking last night... (This is going to be a longish story I'm afraid as I haven't thoroughly precessed everything, so...)

So...I was on typology central reading two threads: One was about the difference between INFJ and INFP artists ( http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/14368-infj-vs-infp-art.html ) and one was an "INFJ critical" (What on earth??? How can that be??? Genuine shock!!! ;D ) type of a post by an INTP guy ( http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/3075-infjs.html ).

The first was a post by an INFJ declaring herself jealous of the passion, immediacy and feeling Fi doms display in their works.

it's interesting- i just had this like sudden realization due to mbti typing that was very disillusioning. i realized that as an infj i will never have the IMMEDIACY and deal 100% in EMOTIONAL CURRENCY like an infp. my first instinct is to be paralyzingly jealous. i find that ability to be so valuable. i will never write something that affects me with the immediacy and directness and conviction of Fi.

infj does not have the depth of internal feeling that infp has
infj sees the connection between things, perceives the big picture with more penetrating depth, clarity, and complexity, but it does not have the inner sanctum of feeling where humans TRANSFORM life into art (emotional value, emotional currency, etc)
infj is far more DISTANT emotionally, it PERFORMS less but attempts to reveal more in the way of insight (which i feel so unexcited about comparatively i can't even bring myself to capitalize it)

this is why i always describe my favorite artists as �perceptive� and why i need an intellectual backbone to support the emotional currency and allow me to react with total abandon, i can't just have faith i have to have insight too, the highest insight is what gets me off strongest and most allows me to openly experience feeling with the greatest depth i am capable of. (i cannot table my insight/understanding and just openly and un-self-consciously FEEL with total FAITH and conviction, it is such an antagonistic process for me to ever let go of Ni to just FEEL)

concluding, for me to make anything of special value, my art has to be based on INSIGHT rather than IMMEDIACY

insight is so DISTANT, and the opposite of immediacy. feelings are moved around the chessboard in the form of symbolic pieces like dostoeyevsky characters. the emotional currency comes from outside and not within. (Fe vs Fi). very interesting to me, and i'm still letting all of the votes tabulate before i know what comes out as the result.

Me and my INFJ friend -just- got into this discussion not two weeks ago.
He's a poet and a writer and he was telling how he could not -feel- like other poets did and that he was bitingly jealous of those whose feelings simply seemed to flow more smoothly.

Our appreciation of art is almost completely different.

Music: He will be entranced by the lyrics first, the symbols of the mood later. I will be momentarily overtaken by the overall -tone- of a song and build meaning immediately according to my imagination, and the visions that mood gives me - then integrate the actual lyrics. I tend to integrate the words faster if the lyrics are spoken clearly. But he focuses on them regardless of clarity.

Poetry: Take for example, Sylvia Plath. Both of us are pretty much obsessed with her. He finds secret things in her work that I could only hope to find after a shot of vodka or two. I, on the other hand get literally transported to that asylum and through imagination alone enact and feel. When thinking of the belljar metaphor, I find myself there.. suffocating in my own insanity, feeling-imagining the brutality of hopelessness. He seems to take the long way there... it takes him awhile to dance around his own constructs.

He is incapable of imagining red without the word red first.
I see INFJ art as inherently bound by language itself.

The second was criticism of Fe, basically, implying social fakery. The reason I'm bringing this thread up is because the OP felt that the combination of Ni and Fe creates a "Fi-effect" which he found pleasant but still had problems with what he saw as slithery crowdpleasing toadery of Fe in INFJ behavior (I'm not even going to go there...Look! A can of worms!!! ...let's not open it )
Here's the run through of the reported "Fi effect"

The Fi effect is akin to the Fe following Ni to the realm of Introversion. This is where the INFJ is much distinct from the EFJ types. For this reason we often see INFJs write poetry and novels, and discern emotion in depth--much like the aforementioned INFPs(in my INFP profile---Kierkegaard, Virgil, Shakespeare)--Representatives of the INFJ type would be Goethe, Dostoevksy and Camus.

No doubt the EFJs, especially ENFJs have the ability to write poetry and novels (discern the human element in depth like the INFs do) however, because their F is aimed at outwards (more at activity rather than contemplation) they are less likely to engage in such activities.

That is the aforementioned Fi effect indeed, or in depth scrutiny of the human element. Essentially, what the two groups of authors had in common is in depth scrutiny of Feeling. This needs not be attributed strictly to Fi, but to the interplay of Feeling and Intuition. Introversion does help, but it is not a necessary factor. For this reason, many ENFJs, like Ivan Turgenev for example, have also mastered the enterprise of scrutiny of Feeling, as well as ENFPs,(Leo Tolstoy). However, Introversion did prove to be a slight advantage as the INFs managed to probe deeper. As we clearly see that Virgil(INFP) and Goethe(INFJ) had powerful insights into human nature, as well as profound and careful scrutinty of the phenomena they set sight on. Now, their Extroverted counterparts--Tolstoy(ENFP) and Turgenev, seemed to lack the profundity and cautiousness of thought that the previous two had.

Thus, the Fi effect that I see in the INFJs is the ability to probe deeply and scrutinize carefully. This should not be attributed strictly to Fi, but to the factor of Introversion. (Technically the ENFs with a well developed secondary function could also learn to do this, though it comes the easiest to the most Introverted of Idealists. Hence, the easieast to the INFP and second easiest to the INFJ.)

So, you'd be happy to replace the Fi effect with the Introversion factor in addition to the interfuse of Intuition and Feeling.

Reading the INFJ vs. INFP art thread I just thought to myself "Well that's just plain not true... I think I do have the "the inner sanctum of feeling where humans TRANSFORM life into art (emotional value, emotional currency, etc)"

Now generally speaking I would be one to categorize myself as one of those "INFPish" INFJs. Ni function is my preferred one but I'm not un-passionate, un-feeling and I do relate to the descriptions of Fi on some level.
The functions tests give me the functions strenght order of
Ni
Ne
Fi
Fe
Ti
Te
Se
Si

...So this is what's been mulling in my head.
Then I came accross a pdf about the Dario Nardi EEG experiment ( http://www.keys2cognition.com/papers/EEGandSocialCognition.pdf ). Skimming through it something caught my eye:

Affective Response to What’s of Personal Value (F8 region)
“music is important”, “it’s good”, “that’s my favorite”, “my car...”, “I like Joe” Which roommate does the subject value most?

The diagram showed that out of the types included INFPs display by far the highest activity level (around 80) , followed by ENTP (around 40), but with INFJ on bronze place (around 35ish)...by comparison the ENFJ score was around 10. ...so atleast our brains show activity in the personal values sector.

So I don't know... I sure have values. And very deep feelings. ;D I'm not just ideas and concepts mechanically permutating, though I love concepts.


In response to the INFJ/INFP art and some comments: I can imagine the color red without a word, cry to some instrumental sounds (no lyrics involved, though I do pay attention to lyrics). I think I'm passionate. I am transported when I read a book for example and it's very vivid and engages my feelings strongly.



I don't know. How do you guys see yourselves in this respect? Do you feel you have personal values? Do you consider yourself passionate? ...can you imagine red without seeing the word red?

 

[Trifoilum]

First of all, Cognitive Feelings =/= Emotional Feelings =/= [MENTION=1798]Feelings[/MENTION] (bless him, wherever he is).
Thus, one can have strong Fi/Fe without feeling a lot.

I think one nature of differences within Feeling/Thinking scale comes from the.... shape of the thoughts; the vagueness/concreteness, the rigidity, the exactness of it all; aside from 'sources' and other things. A Thinker once described it to me as this; "Ts are more like blueprints, designs; Fs are more scribbles, sketches."; and I personally agreed a bit. But then, random things; IMHO the T/F dichotomy works on every matter, not just the stereotypical (ooh T people thinks only about theories! F people is all PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE). Thus some people have a decidedly T approach in regards to emotions, romance, et cetera; while others have a decidedly F approach in regards to physics, etc...

In regards to emotions -and- art, I would agree that Fi user generally have better abilities to transfer their emotions to arts.
But even then, creating art and emotions talks about 2 things ; the catharsis value (how much of our emotions comes out when we create art) and the aesthetic value (how much of our emotions -leaks through- when we create art)

Second, are we talking about creating art in general, or feeling values in general?

I think a lot of INFJs 'feel' using Fe. Or rather, we feel using our Ti and Fe; we judge our truths / values in accordance to what happened outside.
A lot of INFPs has a reverse feel to it; they judge what happened in accordance to their own truths / values.
Cannot be so sure about it....
However,

Thirdly, feeling some values more strongly =/= having a stronger / deeper value. Neither does it mean having more passion.
It means having more sensitivity; or in the language of the Ts, more 'weak-skinned'.
It requires a lot of other things for those to become passion.
I think Ni doms/auxs have the deepest values, but Fi doms and auxs 'feel' them the most.

I don't know. How do you guys see yourselves in this respect?

Aside from the aforementioned problem not unable to create emotional arts....I dunno. Some ups and down; one place I'm happy, the other I'm not. One situation I'm pleased, other situations I'm finding myself envious.

Do you feel you have personal values?

Yes and no, really.
I mean, I have Ti. It's almost similar in terms of 'feel', compared to Fi.
Not to mention that test-wise, I have a very high Fi.

Do you consider yourself passionate?

Again, yes and no.

...can you imagine red without seeing the word red?

O__O; course I can. O_O;

 

[#@&5&49]

How do you guys see yourselves in this respect? Do you feel you have personal values? Do you consider yourself passionate? ...can you imagine red without seeing the word red?

I can't be much help to you here [MENTION=4982]Reverie[/MENTION]. My brain can't process too much intricate technical information. I know do, re, me, fa, so , la, ti, do, and INFJ, that's it. I'm an artist too. I'm very passionate, maybe too much so. I feel my way through most things. If it feels right it probably is. If it doesn't feel right, I change it. I probably have too many personal values too. Sometimes I think they get in the way of living my life cause I spend a lot of time trying to live up to my own values. As far seeing the color red without seeing the word red. As artists don't we do that every time we paint. I mean if we want to use the color red we just use it, we don't first read the label to make sure it's red. Unless of course we have a visual impairment in which we need to read the label first. Just some random thoughts.

 

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In regards to emotions -and- art, I would agree that Fi user generally have better abilities to transfer their emotions to arts.
But even then, creating art and emotions talks about 2 things ; the catharsis value (how much of our emotions comes out when we create art) and the aesthetic value (how much of our emotions -leaks through- when we create art)

Second, are we talking about creating art in general, or feeling values in general?

I think a lot of INFJs 'feel' using Fe. Or rather, we feel using our Ti and Fe; we judge our truths / values in accordance to what happened outside.
A lot of INFPs has a reverse feel to it; they judge what happened in accordance to their own truths / values.
Cannot be so sure about it....
However,

Thirdly, feeling some values more strongly =/= having a stronger / deeper value. Neither does it mean having more passion.
It means having more sensitivity; or in the language of the Ts, more 'weak-skinned'.
It requires a lot of other things for those to become passion.
I think Ni doms/auxs have the deepest values, but Fi doms and auxs 'feel' them the most.



Aside from the aforementioned problem not unable to create emotional arts....I dunno. Some ups and down; one place I'm happy, the other I'm not. One situation I'm pleased, other situations I'm finding myself envious.

Yes and no, really.
I mean, I have Ti. It's almost similar in terms of 'feel', compared to Fi.
Not to mention that test-wise, I have a very high Fi.

Again, yes and no.

O__O; course I can. O_O;

Yeah. I find talking about art and feeling as a woman an and artist and then trying to frame it in the MBTI context a bit tricky. How to break it down in that framework...especially since I'm a bit hesitant of breaking it down in any way. I don't like to analyze art and feeling. It's one of those things where I feel a bit of mystery is more than welcome.
But I do have a problem when I read threads about art and type and what's the way a specific type would create etc. and obviously when I occasionally amuse myself and dabble in artist typing it's an issue I'm aware of. How do you, and do you see type in manifest in someone's work? I usually compare to myself as a point of reference for INFJness but that's not such a great measuring stick, I'm guessing. ;D
I also don't really even know what the INFP art mentioned looks like? I wonder if there's an artist example from someone who is unequivocally INFP? Or INFJ for that matter? No one ever seems to be 100% unanimous about type when it comes to artists It's always a guesstimate.

I can't be much help to you here [MENTION=4982]Reverie[/MENTION]. My brain can't process too much intricate technical information. I know do, re, me, fa, so , la, ti, do, and INFJ, that's it. I'm an artist too. I'm very passionate, maybe too much so. I feel my way through most things. If it feels right it probably is. If it doesn't feel right, I change it. I probably have too many personal values too. Sometimes I think they get in the way of living my life cause I spend a lot of time trying to live up to my own values. As far seeing the color red without seeing the word red. As artists don't we do that every time we paint. I mean if we want to use the color red we just use it, we don't first read the label to make sure it's red. Unless of course we have a visual impairment in which we need to read the label first. Just some random thoughts.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. The color red example I think was surely a misunderstanding of some kind. I'm actually flipping through paintings of specific artists in my mind in technicolor right now as I'm typing trying to figure out if they say something about an artists type. I don't know. I definitely have values and opinions on things that I feel very strongly about. I find it hard to live up to my own values often times. Other people I cut slack. They can't be expected to live up to my values. ;D I sure don't. But everyone can be expected to live up to a minimum of decency in behavior. I'm a stick in the mud that way. ;D

 

[#@&5&49]

No one ever seems to be 100% unanimous about type when it comes to artists It's always a guesstimate.

Those darn artists. Always keeping us guessing! Here's some tooth art (not mine, the art or the teeth). What type of artist does this? And where do they get the teeth? Hmm. :becky: Sorry [MENTION=4982]Reverie[/MENTION], back to topic.

 

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[MENTION=5224]Sadie[/MENTION] i do believe those look like the work of the "Type Fairy", also known as...

Vicky Jo Varner is qualified and certified to use the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator® and the Interstrength Methodology. She presents personality type workshops regularly at international conferences, and Co-Actively coaches clients through the Self-Discovery Process®. Sometimes known as the "Type Fairy," she has INFJ preferences and strives to always "dance in the moment.” Her website may be found at www.TypeInsights.com. She offers a free mini-course on "The Origins of Personality Type," as well as a variety of self-discovery packages.

So INFJ is the answer my friend, no more no less. Also moonlighting as the tooth fairy... but just for the teeth. In it for the teeth man... the teeth.
I swear she's an INFJ. I have secret footage.... That fashion sense hints at inferior Se. The politeness is clear Fe and airyFAIRYNESS literally screams Ni!!! It also looks like the inside of my head. That's how I extra know. ;D
[video=youtube_share;yCUfM0Z0mxU]http://youtu.be/yCUfM0Z0mxU[/video]

 

[Trifoilum]

Yeah. I find talking about art and feeling as a woman an and artist and then trying to frame it in the MBTI context a bit tricky. How to break it down in that framework...especially since I'm a bit hesitant of breaking it down in any way. I don't like to analyze art and feeling. It's one of those things where I feel a bit of mystery is more than welcome.

Any attempts to analyze and dissect both art and feelings will only create more complexity, though; not simplicity.
Because there are many, and people see it as many.

How do you, and do you see type in manifest in someone's work? I usually compare to myself as a point of reference for INFJness but that's not such a great measuring stick, I'm guessing. ;D

It's hard to say. Most of it were just vibes (thus, not really trustworthy); like, (with considerations placed upon skill, experience, etc) repetition, theme, mood, details, style, and the ever so elusive 'leaking through-ness' (this would require some sort of more personal understanding of the artist, though).
It's a bit like life, mostly. Why do we put certain things here, and not there? Why do we act like this, in that way; and not like that, in another way entirely? Why do we create our art in a specific style; and what made us interested in those?

In drawing terms, Why do you put that aspect here, in that form and detail and shape and tone and shade and pattern and perspective and color and positioning?
In musical terms, why do you put the sound / instrument here, in that style, volume, tone, notes, flow, speed?
etc, etc.
The answer tells a bit about the artist.

I also don't really even know what the INFP art mentioned looks like? I wonder if there's an artist example from someone who is unequivocally INFP? Or INFJ for that matter? No one ever seems to be 100% unanimous about type when it comes to artists It's always a guesstimate.

Yep.
A friend picks Daniel Merriam as an INFP; his drawings, despite the WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS DETAILING details; has a very whimsical, rather dream-like shape.

 

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...I have to still do this... I have to... I know I'm derailing my own post but...cannot ...resist... [MENTION=5224]Sadie[/MENTION]

 

[#@&5&49]

...I have to still do this... I have to... I know I'm derailing my own post but...cannot ...resist... [MENTION=5224]Sadie[/MENTION]

I knew it!!! I knew it was a dentist/artist. From now on whenever I go to the dentist I'm taking my teeth home with me. The guilty one is probably that little elf dentist from "Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer" :becky:

 

[jupiterswoon]

It's funny because I started a thread last week about how I envy Fi's and their feelings. I envy them because I am always aware of other people's feelings, but not so much my own.

 

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It's funny because I started a thread last week about how I envy Fi's and their feelings. I envy them because I am always aware of other people's feelings, but not so much my own.

I think it's harder in the moment to be aware if there's lots of people involved...or at least to "take an emotions based stand" so to speak... When there's been moments like let's say an abrupt end to a relationship that wasn't exactly happy...ambiguous feelings...it takes me time to process a bit, but then when I think of moments like meeting my husband or holding my baby for the first time...attending a funeral..or walking on a nice sunny day. I know what I'm feeling for sure. I think it's hard to express them in the moment because I don't think emotions are a basis on which to solve conflicts etc. so I do put them aside and try to take in the situation without getting my emotions involved in that moment too much. I may express them once I have the whole what's and whos and whys down and figure what to do.

 

[knight in battle]

Do you feel you have personal values? Do you consider yourself passionate? ...can you imagine red without seeing the word red?

I have always had personal values, even though I am an in-between INF. I see this especially when I perceive something as unjust.

I can't see red without seeing the word or the concepts associated with it. In some contexts, I see it as a bold color representing freedom.

 

[knight in battle]

Ni is a wonderful way of feeling. It's like a delayed reaction while maintaining a curious, serious, or warm disposition.

 

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[MENTION=5301]jupiterswoon[/MENTION] I do remember reading your thread, and that combined with my new hobby of being an amateur "celebrity typist"/bored housewife got me on typologycentral... Reading the artist thread there... that was the clinch. I didn't want to hijack your thread with my musings. I don't know. I really have a hard time wrapping my head around the INFJs no Fi aspect... I'm guessing it's just because I'm confusing the judging function with actual feelings and values.
Like the EEG experiment Nardi did kind of shows, the F8 region in the brain is relatively quite active in INFJs and that's the region dealing with personal values and preferences "I like"... "I don't like"...
I really just can't make sense of it.
I know from personal experience I experience a lag in processing my feelings when I am faced with a problem that is complex. I kind of just attribute that to having to process things in a Ni way. I do that when something goes wrong...let's say the car breaks on the highway. I usually look like I'm just standing there for a second, letting it sink in, but after that lag I spring into action and am usually the most efficient person around because I seem to come up with a really good action plan (tooting my own horn here). I always have to have that pause before though.
That's a time I don't use my emotions. I just take things in and my mind tick tocks a bit before I come up with a plan.
However there are times when something I'd consider blatantly "wrong" happens and I just react instantly without thinking. There was an instance some random guy groped and wouldn't let go of a young female friend of mine and before I knew it I'd ran over and knocked this huge guy off his barstool and was standing over him yelling my lungs out. I just saw "wrong" and woosh. I was there.

 

[Rferraris]

INFJs have no feelings. We make them up as we go. If we don't have one at the moment, we take yours. Convictions sound dramatic, but once again, no real bearing on what we believe. Just more made up stuff to make you feel small.

 

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[MENTION=5219]Rferraris[/MENTION] That's not my experience. In some, a more buddhist sense, I can get that. Kind of. What is feeling? What is I? Feelings happen, but who is feeling? Where are feelings happening? What is all of this? Is any of it real? What is real? But at the same time at the level and reality of the personality I experience feelings. When I'm alone I feel. I feel compassion or anger, amusement, irritation. I may have come to a conclusion something is wrong and I will act accordingly in life when I come across something I think is wrong. It's based on my views in life, experiences, the feelings I sense in others and my own feelings in situations.
I don't quite understand what you mean.

 

[Rferraris]

[MENTION=5219]Rferraris[/MENTION] That's not my experience. In some, a more buddhist sense, I can get that. Kind of. What is feeling? What is I? Feelings happen, but who is feeling? Where are feelings happening? What is all of this? Is any of it real? What is real? But at the same time at the level and reality of the personality I experience feelings. When I'm alone I feel. I feel compassion or anger, amusement, irritation. I may have come to a conclusion something is wrong and I will act accordingly in life when I come across something I think is wrong. It's based on my views in life, experiences, the feelings I sense in others and my own feelings in situations.
I don't quite understand what you mean.

I was being facetious. But honestly I think we are chameleons. We have strong judgments, but it's hard to move in and out of situations without trying on a few different shoes. It helps us process what we really think, feel, mean. So I kinda toss it up in the air once in awhile and get tired of always having strng positions on things. They are always changing and being refined. Checked and double checked to make sure I still agree. So when I read the question I kinda threw my hands up as to say I don't know.

 

[jupiterswoon]

[MENTION=5301]jupiterswoon[/MENTION] I do remember reading your thread, and that combined with my new hobby of being an amateur "celebrity typist"/bored housewife got me on typologycentral... Reading the artist thread there... that was the clinch. I didn't want to hijack your thread with my musings. I don't know. I really have a hard time wrapping my head around the INFJs no Fi aspect... I'm guessing it's just because I'm confusing the judging function with actual feelings and values.
Like the EEG experiment Nardi did kind of shows, the F8 region in the brain is relatively quite active in INFJs and that's the region dealing with personal values and preferences "I like"... "I don't like"...
I really just can't make sense of it.
I know from personal experience I experience a lag in processing my feelings when I am faced with a problem that is complex. I kind of just attribute that to having to process things in a Ni way. I do that when something goes wrong...let's say the car breaks on the highway. I usually look like I'm just standing there for a second, letting it sink in, but after that lag I spring into action and am usually the most efficient person around because I seem to come up with a really good action plan (tooting my own horn here). I always have to have that pause before though.
That's a time I don't use my emotions. I just take things in and my mind tick tocks a bit before I come up with a plan.
However there are times when something I'd consider blatantly "wrong" happens and I just react instantly without thinking. There was an instance some random guy groped and wouldn't let go of a young female friend of mine and before I knew it I'd ran over and knocked this huge guy off his barstool and was standing over him yelling my lungs out. I just saw "wrong" and woosh. I was there.

Hey Reverie, I am totally stoked that you kept this topic up, I think it is a fascinating subject and I like hearing more about it I think when I originally created that post I'd muddled what I'd meant to say, so it's great to see a continuation of the theme.

That's awesome you got into this, I think it's not only a great hobby, but a very useful tool for understanding ourselves and others. The interesting thing, is that I've been more able to understand how I understand others- and the more I understand about type, the less I stop having the knee-jerk reaction of "Wrong!" when someone does something different than I do.

For example I have a very close ENFP friend, who is always starting tons of projects, and it used to drive me crazy and I thought she should simplify it- well, so did her ex boyfriend, and she was telling me that the "need to simplify" was absolutely stifling, and that she literally gains her energy by thinking of new projects or ideas, and feels limited with just one idea. The more I understand people the more I can appreciate people for who they are instead of projecting my values on them.

As far as Fe goes, I feel like the other problem with that, is that it's very easy for an Fe to manipulate other peoples feelings, as Rferraris says, and that can be both good and bad- we can excite and stimulate other people or we can depress them and make them feel unworthy. What I like about Fi is that they are mostly just concerned with their own personal feelings, and that they don't seem to care as much about what other people think, although if they do care about what other people think it seems as though they tend to internalize it. What is nice about Fe is that there is a switch of feeling I can flip on and off, I feel like if I was Fi it'd be harder to ignore those feelings or sort through them because it's a tertiary function.

More and more, I am aware of the need to develop Ti, in order to balance out emotions and prevent knee jerk emotional reactions- gotta admit, I love NTs for the fact that they are stable pillars of reason. I've found that once I developed better control over my feelings, I had a much harder time being around Feelers who haven't developed strong Ti. I realized originally in that post that I created- it's not so much about envying Fi as developing Ti- at least in the case of an INFJ.

 

[Breeze]

I have very strong values that not everyone will agree with and I can be incredibly passionate.

And I used to think of the colour red without thinking the word but now you've put that in my head so thank you very much sir. =]