INFJ or INTJ? | INFJ Forum

INFJ or INTJ?

Headstorm

On a mountain path.
Dec 3, 2018
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One of the reasons I joined this forum was to find out whether I am an INTJ or INFJ. I read only a few topics on the forum and I think I know the answer already.
Anyway, I would very much like yo hear what you think is the most significant difference between an INTJ and INFJ. Or, what question would you like me to answer to find out whether I am F or T? Thanks in advance for helping me .
 
I think the difference is too subtle to answer with just one question. Keywords I would keep in mind though for this would be Perspectives and Reasons, Morale and Logic - more the former two than the latter.
 
Hi Headstorm,

I think I can offer some insight to your dilemma based upon my personal experiences.

I typically test as an INFJ and identify as one. I've explored other alternatives very earnestly but nothing else comes close to the resonances I have with INFJ. At one time I seriously considered INTJ, too, but it didn't really resonate, and I had some insight based upon my life.

Essentially this is because one of my very best friends is an INTJ, and we worked very closely for a couple of years so got to know each others' quirks and modes of operation quite well.

I met my friend, let's call him J, while I worked as a Secondary school teacher. I was in my late twenties (still am, just!), and he was 58-60 for the period we worked together. He is probably the finest man I've ever met, an ex-miner who fought in the miner's strike, and very politically active.

In our school, we were engaged in serious union activity and conflict with the leadership against some appalling conditions (and if you need proof of this, just know that the person who was ultimately responsible for the conditions was exposed, ousted, and is now undergoing police investigation, while the school leadership were all sacked once a new academy trust took over).

The staff were so fearful and demoralised that it was initially just us who fought to mobilise and to push back against any worsening of conditions. So we were engaged in an industrial and political struggle. I was acting head of department, he was union rep in the school (and eventually divisional secretary), under very very difficult circumstances. I was personally working 80+ hours per week minimum.

We would often discuss and plan, and of course acted upon things, and here's the differences I noticed:

He was very strategic (Te) and ruthless about winning the fight. He is perhaps the most principled man I've met (a similar level to me), however. I was more idealistic and concerned about truth and rightness. If we were right, we ought to win on principle, I thought, whereas he was much more realistic and keen on playing the chess game. I'll give you an example. I was engaged in an email conversation with the head about a particular issue - my approach was to deal with him honestly and in good faith; his outlook was that the head was testing our strength in a subtle way, and that we should respond in kind. I hadn't even considered the fact that the email exchange was a game in this war we were in, but on reflection he was right. The head was a scumbag and did things like that all the time (intimidation, bullying, &c.). He'd left his previous school on the back of a bullying scandal.

We were both willing to publically go to war with people and challenge them, but our actions afterwards betrayed our types. He kept his resentments and his hate and viewed them as enemies, whereas I always had the urge to reconcile for a better way forward. I had one infamous public exchange with the deputy head in a room full of 70 other teachers, where he essentially lost the case for a new policy to my argument. My friend J contributed to this, too (in fact, he started it, and I jumped in after - the rest of the staff were too afraid to say anything, as the other vocal people had already been bullied out of their jobs). I was calm but very forceful, and refused to allow him to speak over me, &c. He was seen to be visibly shaking with nerves during the exchange. Afterwards, he was a different man, completely defeated and dejected, and he never spoke to the whole staff again. I felt sympathy for the man (Fe) and attempted to reconcile with him (which he was receptive to), taking the line that we were 'just debating policy'. My friend was still very much of the opinion that the deputy head was a fool and it served him right for trying to go up against us (my friend had a very high opinion of our intellectual and moral powers, which is one of the reasons we were so effective - we had high confidence and morale). So in that case, I think an INFJ in conflict is more likely to show respect and sorrow for their defeated enemies whereas an INTJ simply views them dispassionately; they lost.

I hope these examples help, my friend. What about you? Do you feel more strategic or idealistic in conflict?
 
Thanks for your reply. The first answer that comes to mind is...I always try to avoid conflict.
I did have a huge conflict some years ago, a family issue. I ended up very, very frustrated and ended the relationship with 2 family members.
Anyway, I think I am more idealistic than strategic.

@Ginny: I am not quite sure I understand what you wrote...I'll try to remember the keywords.
 
I agree about the strategic argument @Deleted member 16771 mentioned. It is not unreasonable to say that INFJs cannot be opinionated and resentful as well, if the Fi is high enough and in little enough control.

So in that case, I think an INFJ in conflict is more likely to show respect and sorrow for their defeated enemies whereas an INTJ simply views them dispassionately; they lost.
Yes and not exactly. The INFJ is just as capable of emotionlessness due to Fe if they put their own emotions aside. In knowing that we're right (even if we're not), we can be ruthless, especially in conflict. Only hindsight can we be more sorrowful and respectful. (Just to expand on what you said.)
Control and maturity are very important to consider here.
 
Thanks for your reply. The first answer that comes to mind is...I always try to avoid conflict.
I did have a huge conflict some years ago, a family issue. I ended up very, very frustrated and ended the relationship with 2 family members.
Anyway, I think I am more idealistic than strategic.

Hi Headstorm. This might sound obvious, but would you say you avoid conflict because it tends to take a lot out of you, though in some cases you know that you are in the right, and also that you can show that you are?

This is a very giveaway trait of INFJs.
 
Thanks for your reply. The first answer that comes to mind is...I always try to avoid conflict.
I did have a huge conflict some years ago, a family issue. I ended up very, very frustrated and ended the relationship with 2 family members.
Anyway, I think I am more idealistic than strategic.

@Ginny: I am not quite sure I understand what you wrote...I'll try to remember the keywords.
I know you don't, hence why I keep them in mind. They stand for the functions that determine the differences in the T/F functions, broadly speaking.

I didn't want to make you choose something, because inevitably most people give intuitively wrong/misrepresentative answers 90% of the time.


Conflict avoidance isn't indicative of MBTI type. More indicative is how you deal with it.

How are you with strategies overall?
 
Hi Headstorm. This might sound obvious, but would you say you avoid conflict because it tends to take a lot out of you, though in some cases you know that you are in the right, and also that you can show that you are?

This is a very giveaway trait of INFJs.

I avoid conflict for several reasons I guess. Mostly because I do not want to create a bad athmosphere. Sometimes because it takes a lot out of me (there is a limit to what I can explain).
 
I avoid conflict for several reasons I guess. Mostly because I do not want to create a bad athmosphere. Sometimes because it takes a lot out of me (there is a limit to what I can explain).
I guess there we have a difference. An INTJ wouldn't be bothered by bad atmospheres, let alone drained. On the contrary, they are often oblivious to it.
 
I avoid conflict for several reasons I guess. Mostly because I do not want to create a bad athmosphere. Sometimes because it takes a lot out of me (there is a limit to what I can explain).

That's informative :)

You said in your introduction post that you lead a small team of developers. Would this reluctance also apply there, with matters of competence? Would you favor a softer approach over a tough one with the people you manage? Would you care about making your point without hurting them?
 
How are you with strategies overall?

Hmm, good question. I need to think about that. I analyze a lot, I plan ahead, I can make up a strategy. But I have also learned that plans need to be adjusted along the way, circumstances change. I am open to that and I often find myself responding to a new situation quickly, because I already foresaw the possibility of the situation.
I sometimes have this feeling that I am walking a narrow path, that I foresee the outcome of a series of events.
Regarding strategy...I am not always receiving a positive response to my long term plans and ideas, so I mostly keep my thoughts to myself.
 
Definitely.

I see. Okay, one last question. You said this just earlier:

I avoid conflict for several reasons I guess. Mostly because I do not want to create a bad athmosphere.

Does this imply that you are rather good at anticipating/feeling/intuiting the atmosphere in a room? Are you sensitive to it, and would you incline towards acting in such a way as to make sure it remains good?

I guess the crux of my question is: do you care about the atmosphere for practical reasons, or because it would also affect you if it was negative.
 
I guess the crux of my question is: do you care about the atmosphere for practical reasons, or because it would also affect you if it was a negative atmosphere.

I don't know...I can feel the athmosphere. I always (no, most of the time) feel if there is tension in a group, a meeting for example. But I am not sure if I am affected by it. I usually try to take away the tension. When there is a happy athmosphere, I simply join in
 
But I am not sure if I am affected by it. I usually try to take away the tension.
Isn't it already an effect right there? It affects your behaviour to a certain degree if I am not mistaken. An INTJ wouldn't care. Or maybe even notice.
 
Thanks for your reply. The first answer that comes to mind is...I always try to avoid conflict.
I did have a huge conflict some years ago, a family issue. I ended up very, very frustrated and ended the relationship with 2 family members.
Anyway, I think I am more idealistic than strategic.

@Ginny: I am not quite sure I understand what you wrote...I'll try to remember the keywords.
What was your goal in this family conflict, if I may ask? Were you trying ultimately to heal the rift, or were you trying to 'win' somehow (I'm sorry if that sounds crude, I couldn't think of a more accurate way to distinguish the dichotomy).
 
Isn't it already an effect right there? It affects your behaviour to a certain degree if I am not mistaken. An INTJ wouldn't care. Or maybe even notice.

Agreed. But could there be something like a sensitive INTJ? Or is this one of the obvious differences?
 
What was your goal in this family conflict, if I may ask? Were you trying ultimately to heal the rift, or were you trying to 'win' somehow (I'm sorry if that sounds crude, I couldn't think of a more accurate way to distinguish the dichotomy).

Neither. After the death of my father I felt I was left alone by my brother and sister. I did 80% of all the work that had to be done. I wanted them to do more, but more than that, I wanted them to say thank you. I got angry words instead. To make it short, I wanted understanding, not to win or heal anything.
 
Agreed. But could there be something like a sensitive INTJ? Or is this one of the obvious differences?

I would say that INTJs can be sensitive, just like INFJs, but they will tend not to be as emotional, in a visible way, that is.

INFJs tend to be emotionally expressive. INTJs, less so, though there might be a storm going on inside.
 
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Agreed. But could there be something like a sensitive INTJ? Or is this one of the obvious differences?
Of course there are sensitive INTJs, but they are different in the way they are sensitive. They aren't apt at reading the room or other people (at least emotionally), even if they can learn it. They are generally sensitive on the inside, as in that they have (intense) emotions, but they aren't emotional about it. They rather keep their emotions to themselves and therefore they are often mistaken for dead fish. But they have distinct feelings they are moderately capable of identifying, other than INFJs who often struggle with their emotions for feeling like they have to set them aside in favour of other people. There is an intuitive knowledge of reading other people in INFJs (with a few exceptions but let's stick to the stereotype for now) that the INTJ isn't particularly good at. Sure, they can read people if they have internalised enough factual information or if there has been significant influence by an empathic person, but it still isn't their preferred modus operandi, cognitively speaking. There are always exceptions to the rule, but preference doesn't lie. The INTJs particular talent is object oriented problem solving, they are good with the reasons of the tribe, rather than the feelings of the tribe.
The INFJ is a perfect conundrum as in that due to their aux-Fe they are both energised and drained by social activity. An INTJ, with Fe next to last, couldn't care less about people in general, but if the emotional connection is strong enough they would do anything for the people they care about.
Another way emotions can manifest in INTJs (assuming that due to judging functions it is the same as in ISTJs) is when a loved one is hurt or sick and they can't do anything about it. They can care so much that they get stuck in their own emotions and the others suffering almost makes them fall apart.

So yes, there is something like a sensitive INTJ, just not in the way you probably think.