INFJ myths
- Thread starter Mary Shelley
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I polled every INFJ I could find. So many bruised shins.
Entirely depends on how you presented the question.
You should also go poll a few XNXJs as well.Inferior and tertiary Se may appear uncoordinated and not bound to notice their surroundings, but watch them react when they're not paying attention to what they're doing. For example, a whole bunch of cans accidentally fall out of a cupboard. They'll catch a surprising amount of them. Also try playing tennis with an INXJ. They might not have the skills, but they have a pretty good 'ball sense' (snicker, snicker). They're not graceful or 'cat like' but their reflexes aren't all that shabby as the 'inferior' would suggest.
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Entirely depends on how you presented the question.
Inferior and tertiary Se may appear uncoordinated and not bound to notice their surroundings, but watch them react when they're not paying attention to what they're doing. For example, a whole bunch of cans accidentally fall out of a cupboard. They'll catch a surprising amount of them. Also try playing tennis with an INXJ. They might not have the skills, but they have a pretty good 'ball sense' (snicker, snicker). They're not graceful or 'cat like' but their reflexes aren't all that shabby as the 'inferior' would suggest.
Once I fell from atop an aisle while working in a grocery store, did a backflip, and landed like Spider-man.
Once I raked my leg against the trailer hitch of a pickup so hard that I was bruised for nearly a year.
I catch some of the cans that fall.
Would not nearly every person describe things similarly regardless of whether they have Se in their stacks?
It entirely depends on how you presented the question and what you understood 'decent reflexes' to mean via inferior Se. I assure you, it's not anything you'd see in the Matrix or Spiderman.
There have been articles written about intuitives and the role of the right brain and Se as tertiary and inferior as the basis for athleticism in these types, such as Niedganel's Brain Type system. While I'm not totally on board with his take in typology as a whole, I find that his theory on MBTI athletes is quite sound as it lines up with my own observations of my NJ teammates over the years. Intuitive types that are able to override their propensity to 'over-think' things are able to tap into their right-brained functions, such as Se, to allow for a surprising fluidity in movement. INFJs and and INTJs have Ni+Se as their dominant-inferior pair, so they are perfect candidates for this. INFJs have a good left-right brain balance, so depending where their interests lie, they are especially at an advantage to be able to tap into the latent abilities in their inferior Se. This manifests itself most obviously when they're unexpectedly reacting to their surroundings, such as the unexpected falling can example, or with their astounding ability to respond with the appropriate action in crisis. The other place surprising coordination appears as a result of inferior Se is in INXJ musicians. You can also see some cool Ni+Se action with INXJs console gamers who can give even SP types a run for their money. To be clear, this is not a hard and fast rule, but it is an anomaly that is attributable to INXJ types.
A better check for your poll would be to nix the 'ninja' question and interview some XNXJ athletes and dancers (yes, they do exist) who reap the unexpected reflex and eye-hand coordination benefits of inferior Se. Non-classically educated musicians would be also a good group to interview and ask them how long it took them to get proficient with their given instrument. If the theory is correct, many will tell you it probably didn't take them all that long and that many were told they have a natural knack for it.
Either way, whether you agree with me or not, I really wish you would have asked me what I meant by that comment in chat instead of waiting for me to leave and drawing your own conclusions. I would have been very happy to have had this discussion with you and heard your counter-points. Even if I was proved wrong, I think that would have been more respectful conduct. Instead, I got to see my comment exaggerated to the absurd, possibly attributed to myself when you were going around polling, and then completely dismissed as a statement in the 'myth' thread without allowing me to say my piece. I don't think that was very nice.
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I would be suprised if most INFJ's don't acknowledge their fears to themselves
Fear isn't all bad though...it can sharpen your senses
Do you know whats worse than being weird to an INFJ?
...being normal
lol
INFJ's won't wear their weird like a badge though. It isn't a contrived outwardly visible weirdness. They just process information differently to the majority of people
Humanity is a broad church. Its success is in its diversity. If everyone thought the same we wouldn't innovate
The problem comes when a group of people (i don't know if there is an MBTI element to this group) decide that they want to control everyone else. When they do that they then decide how they want others to behave and then they categorise that as 'normal'. Anyone who does not conform to that will then be persecuted
The INFJ is not interested in being shoehorned into someone elses box
They are more ''inner directed''. Many people are ''outer directed'' and as a result they look around them for their social cues and are anxious to fit in with the herd. Outer directed people are easier to manipulate because whatever the defined ''norm'' is of the day, they will bend over backwards to fit in with that norm
For example just look at how fashions change each decade to see how people follow norms of behaviour. The outer directed are deseperate to run with the herd and they will assess their own success by how well they feel they are integrating with the herd
INFJ's assess their success by their own personal criteria
This means they are less easy to manipulate, more likely to think for themselves and more likely to walk off in another direction (metaphorically speaking). This sense of direction is what makes them intriguing to some people in the herd. it also makes them the target for hate from some conformists who are jelous of the INFJ's seeming freedom from the constraints which bind them
If the direction the herd is going in becomes uncomfortable for the herd they may then begin to follow the INFJ's down different routes and that is when INFJ's get seen as charismatic leaders
But people will only try different things when they are very uncomfortable. the rest of the time, the majority of people will slavishly follow the established norms and will suspect and even persecute non conformists like INFJ's
Its when the shit hits the fan that INFJ's as potential pathfinders will gain greater currency
''Normal'' to an INFJ is seen as the death of creativity, the death of freedom and the slavery of bondage. Besides innovators are never 'normal' or they wouldn't be innovating
...being normal
lol
INFJ's won't wear their weird like a badge though. It isn't a contrived outwardly visible weirdness. They just process information differently to the majority of people
Humanity is a broad church. Its success is in its diversity. If everyone thought the same we wouldn't innovate
The problem comes when a group of people (i don't know if there is an MBTI element to this group) decide that they want to control everyone else. When they do that they then decide how they want others to behave and then they categorise that as 'normal'. Anyone who does not conform to that will then be persecuted
The INFJ is not interested in being shoehorned into someone elses box
They are more ''inner directed''. Many people are ''outer directed'' and as a result they look around them for their social cues and are anxious to fit in with the herd. Outer directed people are easier to manipulate because whatever the defined ''norm'' is of the day, they will bend over backwards to fit in with that norm
For example just look at how fashions change each decade to see how people follow norms of behaviour. The outer directed are deseperate to run with the herd and they will assess their own success by how well they feel they are integrating with the herd
INFJ's assess their success by their own personal criteria
This means they are less easy to manipulate, more likely to think for themselves and more likely to walk off in another direction (metaphorically speaking). This sense of direction is what makes them intriguing to some people in the herd. it also makes them the target for hate from some conformists who are jelous of the INFJ's seeming freedom from the constraints which bind them
If the direction the herd is going in becomes uncomfortable for the herd they may then begin to follow the INFJ's down different routes and that is when INFJ's get seen as charismatic leaders
But people will only try different things when they are very uncomfortable. the rest of the time, the majority of people will slavishly follow the established norms and will suspect and even persecute non conformists like INFJ's
Its when the shit hits the fan that INFJ's as potential pathfinders will gain greater currency
''Normal'' to an INFJ is seen as the death of creativity, the death of freedom and the slavery of bondage. Besides innovators are never 'normal' or they wouldn't be innovating
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To add, people have different comfort zones for tolerating differences in others. If a person grows up around or constantly surrounds themselves with very similar people, anything that deviates will be perceived as weird and threatening (because we tend to fear that which we don't understand). A willingness to understand and expand our "monkeysphere" makes differences seem less weird; though people are stubborn and don't like change so you often just have people continue fearing and hating that which is unlike them.
Ok but what are the shaping forces behind those groups of 'similar people'
Who are the trend setters in modern western society?
Who is deciding the norms and how are they doing it?
Then....why are they doing it?
I take some objection to being described as 'not normal' or weird. I prefer the term 'uncommon'.
I think the problem with being described as 'not normal' is that it implies somehow that I am 'abnormal' and I don't believe that I am abnormal at all.
I think that the way I feel and react and live my life makes complete sense, more so than most of the people I know. I can certainly explain my choices and my perspective on my life and life in general much better than the average person. Abnormal implies that you are somewhat deviant. I don't think that the traits associated with INFJ are deviant at all, although I have certainly come to realize that they are not commonly found in the general population.
It's the same with the word 'weird'.
Here's the Oxford dictionary for the word 'weird':
suggesting something supernatural; unearthly:weird, inhuman sounds
informal very strange; bizarre:a weird coincidenceall sorts of weird and wonderful characters
Although I have seen descriptions of INFJ as being supernatural or otherwordly I think that is very inacurate. I believe I am in some ways more down-to-earth than most people that I know. Although these other people could definitly not be described as supernatural or otherworldy, I know they wouldn't describe me that way either.
I guess if it makes some INFJs feel better to think that they are weird then I would just say go ahead and do it if it helps you, but I'd rather see myself as: caring, idealistic, responsible, well-balanced, creative, cerebral...and uncommon
I think the problem with being described as 'not normal' is that it implies somehow that I am 'abnormal' and I don't believe that I am abnormal at all.
I think that the way I feel and react and live my life makes complete sense, more so than most of the people I know. I can certainly explain my choices and my perspective on my life and life in general much better than the average person. Abnormal implies that you are somewhat deviant. I don't think that the traits associated with INFJ are deviant at all, although I have certainly come to realize that they are not commonly found in the general population.
It's the same with the word 'weird'.
Here's the Oxford dictionary for the word 'weird':
suggesting something supernatural; unearthly:weird, inhuman sounds
informal very strange; bizarre:a weird coincidenceall sorts of weird and wonderful characters
Although I have seen descriptions of INFJ as being supernatural or otherwordly I think that is very inacurate. I believe I am in some ways more down-to-earth than most people that I know. Although these other people could definitly not be described as supernatural or otherworldy, I know they wouldn't describe me that way either.
I guess if it makes some INFJs feel better to think that they are weird then I would just say go ahead and do it if it helps you, but I'd rather see myself as: caring, idealistic, responsible, well-balanced, creative, cerebral...and uncommon
To weigh in on the normal and abnormal discussion, I think the reason why INFJs and INFPs often feel abnormal is because both types are highly attuned to what they think ‘normal’ is. INFPs are constantly re-organizing their inner world to keep with their internalized ideal and shun anything that doesn’t align with it, whereas INFJs pre-emptively reject themselves and their behaviour as not fitting in with the expectations of the external world. If we’re going by stereotypes, INFPs usually revel in their originality whereas INFJs despair in it. INFPs like the differences, they like the ‘specialness’ and being exceptional, whereas INFJs view as a barrier to the connections and harmony they crave with the world around them. INFJs want to blend in but fear they cannot, whereas INFPs know they can blend in, but often choose not to.
From an outsider’s perspective, there’s nothing really ‘abnormal’ about INFJs or INFPs beyond the awkward they often create for themselves. Yeah, often their interest aren’t mainstream and in that sense, I suppose you can paint them as being ‘weird’ (if one or two unusual hobbies is all it takes to make someone an outsider, that is) but where the general personality is concerned, I don’t find either type to be eye-catchingly out of place in a group. More often than not, that ‘weirdness’ is all in their heads.
From an outsider’s perspective, there’s nothing really ‘abnormal’ about INFJs or INFPs beyond the awkward they often create for themselves. Yeah, often their interest aren’t mainstream and in that sense, I suppose you can paint them as being ‘weird’ (if one or two unusual hobbies is all it takes to make someone an outsider, that is) but where the general personality is concerned, I don’t find either type to be eye-catchingly out of place in a group. More often than not, that ‘weirdness’ is all in their heads.
I guess if it makes some INFJs feel better to think that they are weird then I would just say go ahead and do it if it helps you, but I'd rather see myself as: caring, idealistic, responsible, well-balanced, creative, cerebral...and uncommon
I think ''normal'' and ''weird'' are largely things that are being decided for us as a society
We just need to choose to what extent to be ourselves
We all play the game at different times of course, but i think some become the game
If it were only that simple, then no INFJ would ever need to agonise over such matters. Its not a switch that can be turned off and on if the INFJ can just pull themself together
I think people process things differently; i really don't see the variety as a problem. i think the intolerance of society is the problem. I also think that the intolerance is engineered as much as the battle of the sexes is, the race divides, nationalism, poverty, religion....all these things are creations of the mind
“Overcoming poverty is not a task of charity, it is an act of justice. Like Slavery and Apartheid, poverty is not natural. It is man-made and it can be overcome and eradicated by the actions of human beings. Sometimes it falls on a generation to be great. YOU can be that great generation. Let your greatness blossom.” ― Nelson Mandela
Some things are innate: your gender, your skin colour, how you process information etc
other things are creations of the mind: nationality, religion, class etc
The innate we see as wrong to be prejudiced about but the mental constructs we often feel free to question
I don't think your MBTI is a mental construct; i think it is related to how you are wired up as a person
In the past some tried to cure people of being gay....we now see that as morally repugnant
Is it not also morally repugnant to see INFJ's as something to be cured?
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I agree, and what is considered normal in certain parts of the world would be considered the opposite in other parts of the world. Also, there are different expectations of what is normal of people depending on age, socio-economic background, race... which I really dislike.
I think for me what makes me feel different from others is when I try to communicate some of my thoughts with them and having them look at me with a puzzled expression. Generally the reaction has been that they have never thought of this stuff and that they don't really care to...and want to go back to discussing something that seems really shallow and unimportant to me. I've learned to keep most of my thoughts to myself.
Er, that is not even remotely what I was suggesting. I wasn't saying that INFPs and INFJs need to realize that it's 'all in their heads' and 'pull themselves' together to be able to fit into society or that they need to be 'cured.' I only meant that their perception of themselves as being outcasts and abnormal is a function of their cognitive processes because their perception of their own identity tends to be so fluid. INFPs especially are concerned with 'categories' and 'groups.' This is an expression of a desired internal organization triggered by their inferior Te and these types more often than not eventually come to shun societal categories once they realize they don't fit into any of these groups.
As people, INFJs and INFPs are perfectly normal and they don't need to change a thing. The problem is, they rarely let themselves just be. They focus more on their outcast status than other people do and pick themselves apart with a hyper-awareness of where they fit in or don't fit in. As a result, many INFJs and INFPs find great benefit in a personal philosophy that emphasizes the oneness with the universe and others. As soon as they realize they're not better or worse than anyone else, and that they're not going to be defined precisely by some category or another, they let themselves relax and stop thinking that they're somehow flawed and start to embrace their alternative perspectives.
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I think many of us here will relate to that
There are layers to everything aren't there?
You can look at an event and the surface of that is what is happening, or has happened. Then the layer beneath that is why it has happened and who is involved....and so on
I think INFJ's like to look at the underlying patterns and drivers of things, often leading to us being accused of ''over analysing things'' (i think our intuitions do it automatically). Once these patterns and drivers can be discearned it becomes possible to project a trajectory forward into the future and have insights about what is yet to occur
Its the underlying layers that are the interesting ones, yet many people are stuck obsessing over the surface layers
I think that is largely conditioned though. For example the TV news diet everyone is fed on will tell people the surface layer of what is happening, when and where and sometimes a little about who, but will not look at the underlying layers of why (and who)
I also think that a very left brained way of thinking is being pushed on us. i think it is all by design
I think psychiatry is one manifestation of this and the DSM categoraisation is the tool used to define human behaviour in such ways as to make it easily demonised when it suits the system to do so. Even grief is being categorised as a disorder....maybe for a robot, but not for a human being!
Ok
I think you can accept yourself, but that is not the same as suddenly becoming harmonious with the rest of society...do you know what i mean?
Its like instead of worrying about our shortcomings we instead appreciate our strengths and stop trying to bend ourselves to fit others expectations. I think it is a self esteem thing and often comes with age.
The young are often very self conscious and anxious to fit in with their peers, but as you get older you become more comfortable in your own skin; we become more accepting that we will probably not gel with everyone we meet, but we can have really good connections with some
There is also that aspect of ''when you smile the world smiles with you''. So if the INFJ is in a sociable mood they might find they can move smoothly round a social situation enjoying good craic with most if not all in a situation....but there are other times when its just not happening
I think its the nature of how the INFJ is wired up that makes them a bit mercurial
So rather than an INFJ beat themself up that they are not always on form, it's better if they can learn to go with their own flow and accept themselves and their inbuilt foibles
When i was younger i used alcohol to extrovert more. I was trying to be something i'm not. With time and a few hard knocks i learned to accept myself more and appreciate not only what i bring to a situation but what others bring as well.
Some people are great at greasing the social wheels, some are more introspective but can have great insights, some are great at art, some at maths and so on
My issue with all this is that i think we are being moulded as a society maybe more than many realise. I also think that INFJ's are not seen by the people doing the moulding as a desirable type and i think society can often self police itself instead of embracing diversity. i see this state as a cultural one which can be changed
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You do understand
I think MBTI can come to some INFJ's like an oasis in the desert. Its like the operating manual we were supposed to be given when we were dropped on this planet that everyone else seemed to have is finally given to us and things begin to make a bit more sense!
I didn't know about it until my late twenties when i took a test online and came here.
I was in the desert for quite a while!
Yes, I do, and I was specifically talking about self-acceptance in INFJs and INFPs. Out of all the MBTI types, they struggle with this the most because they are particularly invested in becoming harmonious with the rest of society (INFJs more so than INFPs). However, being out-of-step with society isn't just an INFP and INFJ problem. It's an issue shared by all of the intuitive introverts and anyone with alternative interests or brain patterning.
But really, at the end of the day, we all have the same choices: we adapt, we change or we accept the things we can't adapt to or change. Once we accept ourselves and understand the way we think and feel, we're in a better position to be able to live the life that is best suited to our desires and abilities instead of beating ourselves up over the things we can't control and take charge of the things we can.
And I would agree with you.
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