Idolization and Idealistic Fantasies

[RobRobRob]

Do you idolize someone? A celebrity? A famous chef? A band? A content creator?

In the past I used to let my idolization run wild however I never new that being a fan of something could be unhealthy especially if I had the wrong perception of them.

A year ago or so, I used to follow a small YTer who was steadily rising in popularity. He was a content creator whose cynical comedy just resonated with me in a way nothing else had. I purchased one if his books and joined his Patreon and Discord to find like-minded people. A few months later, news broke that he was doing unsavory things - things that I was not okay with. The wool was lifted from over my eyes and I could see that person as they really were - obnoxious, narcissistic, and willing to throw his fans under the bus to gain sympathy (and $$$).

I was disappointed at first but realized this wasn't the first time something like this happened. As far as I feel negatively about myself, I often view others as perfect the way they are, which sounds like a good thing at first but with experience I find it's unhealthy and potentially dangerous.

Do you all experience something like this? Have you ever "met your heroes" and was disappointed they weren't what you thought?

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I've never idolised anyone. Perhaps the closest I've come is romantic infatuation.

I've admired people, but they just tend to rise to the level of equal in my esteem, and I'm not sure that it's possible to exceed that. In fact, I find the notion of 'exceeding that' pretty abhorrent.

I also find idolisation and idolisers a bit creepy, especially in the way that some of them tend to 'model themselves' on their heroes.

 

[Sidis Coruscatis]

There is innocence in fatuous admiration of another - chiefly that its bearer has not yet discovered the spark which reveals that he himself has the potential to be admired.

In less opaque terms, no. Whoever seems so wise and good as to reach some form of godhood in another's eyes, it's only because they have mastered the mask. And it's a disservice to humanity not to credit others with their follies.

I have respect toward another as my intellectual peer - but that fact alone does not elevate one nor disparage the others in my eyes, even if it may seem arrogant.

 

[slant]

It's a result of my childhood trauma, I dealt with it by using maladaptive daydreaming or what people call "being creative" or having "a big imagination." In my adulthood it has been a detriment. It's not as much as I idolize celebrities as much as it is people that I know; I ignore their faults and red flags and keep to this idealistic thinking and then later realize that I made a person out to be something that they were not. Thankfully I've not been in any dangerous situations because of it, at most I've subjected myself to emotional abuse, but yes. It's not healthy.

Most maladaptive behaviors like this do stem from trauma, for me, C-PTSD which makes it at times impossible for me to distinguish what is unhealthy coping mechanisms vs my actual personality, which is why I find it interesting that you're connecting it to personality because I don't know if it necessarily is an actual personality trait. These traits are far less common in people who didn't experience some major trauma particularly in childhood. I truly do believe these mechanisms are created for a reason- to help us survive. But once you're not in a situation where you need it you do need to shed it.

 

[Asa]

Do you idolize someone? A celebrity? A famous chef? A band? A content creator?

No.

Do you all experience something like this?

No.

Have you ever "met your heroes" and was disappointed they weren't what you thought?

I don't become blindly attached to people or admire people like they are gods and perfect. There are plenty of people I admire for their work, but I don't have one favorite and I keep perspective.

Everyone is flawed. Some more than others. A flaw doesn't necessarily erase the good a person does. Flaws are facets of people.
Sometimes the good a person gives the world is far greater than their flaws.
Sometimes the flaw is more like a crime and it does erase the good the person does.
Sometimes finding out someone is awful ruins their art, music, or comedy, etc.
Separating art from artist is not cut and dry.

I've met many people I admired during my teens. I also actively avoid meeting people whose work I admire, even if we're in the same room, because I don't want to be disappointed. Once this backfired when someone found out I was avoiding him and introduced himself. He teased me about it. It was really funny. He and his friends invited me to dinner.

Another time I met an icon and he was a jerk. I was disappointed, but while I recognize his importance, I never idolized him. It's a bit hard to swallow when friends idolize him.

The closest I've ever come to idolizing anyone is my husband. I'm naturally attracted to anything that reminds me of him. It isn't an obsession. I just celebrate who he is.

 

[Korg]

I don't know if I've ever idolized anyone. Maybe Trent Reznor when I was a teenager, but it was in a specific way and had a remarkably important role in how my life unfolded so if it was idolizing, it was for good.

But we're all human, which necessarily means imperfect, insecure, cringy and so forth. Nobody could live up to my idealized expectations, so I don't project that onto them in the first place.

 

[Sidis Coruscatis]

Most maladaptive behaviors like this do stem from trauma, for me, C-PTSD which makes it at times impossible for me to distinguish what is unhealthy coping mechanisms vs my actual personality, which is why I find it interesting that you're connecting it to personality because I don't know if it necessarily is an actual personality trait. These traits are far less common in people who didn't experience some major trauma particularly in childhood. I truly do believe these mechanisms are created for a reason- to help us survive.

Agreed. In my early teens, after a particularly stressful estrangement in school, I had the same inclination. It seems that glorification of another is necessarily an admission of self-contempt and powerlessness, and an attempt to regain a semblance of power vicariously.

 

[slant]

Agreed. In my early teens, after a particularly stressful estrangement in school, I had the same inclination. It seems that glorification of another is necessarily an admission of self-contempt and powerlessness, and an attempt to regain a semblance of power vicariously.

For me it was more about my caretakers were abusing me so I just overlooked the abuse and focused on the good things because i couldn't consciously deal with the fact that the people I relied on were abusing me and that I was basically helpless in the situation. I don't know if this really qualifies as the definition of idolization that OP is talking about, because when I "idolize" people I'm aware of their flaws, I just tend to ignore them because that was what I learned to do. This becomes dangerous when the flaws a person has are like with my parents- toxic and unhealthy behavior- because if you ignore it you can't really solve it. I think a lot of battered women get into this mindset, too.

I notice a lot of posts here are like "no I don't idolize that's unhealthy"... Duh, lol. People who have that behavior are not doing it because it's fun or because they like it. It stems from major trauma and the source is different for everyone.

Now superficial idolization; like being obsessed with a celebrity or something, I don't understand that and I don't have that. I think that is more cultural, in our society how we celebrate wealth and fame and people want to become that person. I don't struggle with that.

But I think it's important to distinguish the different forms and reasons for idolization. It is, in some sense, natural for people. Lots of children idolize their parents growing up and later on come to the stunning realization that their parents are just people. We all have people we look up to and sometimes we do idolize them; there is a difference between idolization and obsession.

 

[RobRobRob]

... when I "idolize" people I'm aware of their flaws, I just tend to ignore them because that was what I learned to do. This becomes dangerous when the flaws a person has are like with my parents- toxic and unhealthy behavior- because if you ignore it you can't really solve it. I think a lot of battered women get into this mindset, too.

Yeah, that seems pretty familiar to me: Ignoring red flags because you hold a person in high regard and forgive their shortcomings.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

The closest I've ever come to idolizing anyone is my husband. I'm naturally attracted to anything that reminds me of him. It isn't an obsession. I just celebrate who he is.

That's fascinating, and beautiful.

 

[dZpADTLrPmX4c]

I don't idolize others, no. Their flaws are usually apparent to me, and influence whether I love them close or "from a safe distance".

I had heroes when I was little, but not living people; past figures who've been near-deified by history. As I grew I learned they were not so perfect as popular myth had described, but this didn't bother me. It was like growing older with somebody; nobody's perfect.

If we hold expectations about others, we'll nearly always disappoint ourselves. It's not the same as holding standards.

 

[Wyote]

I think it's ok to idolize others as long as you understand that they are just a human like yourself.
No one is without fault and even the greatest among us have traded certain things for the cost of whatever they achieved.
I've idolized a lot of people for different things and it fuels me with motivation, inspiration, and momentum in different forms.
Idolization in the strictest form of the word is obviously fraught with problems.
Idealistic fantasies are similarly ok, so long as you don't lose touch with awareness of the fantasy part.

If you can maintain equity and pragmatism in your mind while using these things as a force for positive change, it's fine.

 

[Quiet]

I've idealised a lot of different people. Its not that I didn't necessarily see their flaws...often i did, clearly... its more that I made excuses, justifications, rationalisations and tried to practice a radical forgiveness and acceptance. However, sometimes I was utterly deluded and only saw what i wanted and turned a blind eye to what i didn't want to accept. I believed strongly in giving people the benefit of the doubt. Now, less so.

Being desperate for acceptance and love blindsided me until i got hurt enough to face reality for what it is. Now self love and compassion balances things out. And discernment

This had a lot to do with childhood trauma and that's not something that can be explained. And extremely poor decision making without a healthy sense of self preservation or dignity. And sincerely wanting to see the best and believe in the good of people. Either people went through it and understand or they just don't. Anyway its not about other people understanding.

In terms of people I admire, like public figures, there are many. And many 'everyday (whatever that means) people. Like my neighbour across the road, she is one cool lady.

I love being inspired by people in general. I watch those sappy audition shows on youtube when I'm feeling depressed and they more or less always help me feel connected, inspired and in awe of people. I cry like a baby lol but I find people being courageous and being themselves just brilliant. I dont really know what those people are like, but in that moment....i dont care and I'm willing to believe they are just awesome

Yes theres are lot of attention seekers out there and narcissists, and I've been burned to a crisp before for not seeing through facades. It sucked. but it was also useful.
Honestly, I dont know if the good those people do could outweigh the bad, as the good is only done to serve the bad in many cases. I don't really know how to process it all actually, its not like there are scales.
Some people are entirely composed of a false self and they will do just about anything to preserve their reputation. These people are often really nice. They can fool entire communities. That's why they are dangerous. If it was obvious that they were shitty dangerous people then they wouldn't be dangerous because everyone would steer clear. But lying can be natural and ingenious to some.

And for some people, their flaws just make them more lovable and gloriously human. I'm under no illusions about my daughter. She is not nice but she is honest and herself. I see it and just love her more for it

I've learned that nice does not equal good and some people are only selling you good and there is a heavy price. Buyer beware.
Actual good things things are free and transparent.

But the world is still full of genuinely incredible, honest and brave people too that are willing to really live their beliefs and stick their necks out.

My inconclusive list of heroes- Jacinda Ardern, Elon Musk, Greta Thunberg, David Zindell, Mikhail Gorbachev....I could go on and on

In terms of meeting a hero, I met a candidate that i strongly campaigned for once when i was younger and heavily invested in politics. I genuinely liked him and found him to be sincere. Many people did not share my faith and although he did win, he was shortly booted out and backstabbed by his own party. But he stood firm for his beliefs and made every attempt to implement thoughtful yet radical for the times policy. I have great respect for him still.

On the other hand I liked this band slipknot and I thought their lyrics pretty inspired. I saw them live and was disgusted by their arrogance and dickheadery. They played really well but they acted like egomaniacs and some of their fans seemed violent and, honestly, smelly. These were the days of the moshpit so that was more or less expected, but the way the band riled them up was gross and not fun.

 

[mintoots]

I'm a fan girl by heart. When I was younger, I fawned over actors and actresses and bands. As an adult, I pay my sincerest salutes to fascinating adults.

When I was a kid, their imperfections destroyed me. Now as an adult, I nod and accept them as humans but I still remain impressed by their goodness.

 

[RobRobRob]

I've idealised a lot of different people. Its not that I didn't necessarily see their flaws...often i did, clearly... its more that I made excuses, justifications, rationalisations and tried to practice a radical forgiveness and acceptance. However, sometimes I was utterly deluded and only saw what i wanted and turned a blind eye to what i didn't want to accept. I believed strongly in giving people the benefit of the doubt. Now, less so.

That's me exactly. I made excuses for poor behavior of people I considered close, good friends. Even more, I did it with family members who I held to an even higher standard. I find it very hard to look at my family and long-term friends objectively. I'm drastically more guarded these days.

Being desperate for acceptance and love blindsided me until i got hurt enough to face reality for what it is. Now self love and compassion balances things out. And discernment

Pursuing self-love has been difficult for me. In the past, I felt as though I didn't have a sense of self unless I had the approval of others. That was a disingenuous way of living and yet I thought I was being true to myself.

Some people are entirely composed of a false self and they will do just about anything to preserve their reputation. These people are often really nice. They can fool entire communities. That's why they are dangerous. If it was obvious that they were shitty dangerous people then they wouldn't be dangerous because everyone would steer clear. But lying can be natural and ingenious to some.

In wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt, in the past I've fallen for narcissists (or, perhaps narcissistic people since I have no authority diagnosing people). They're magnetic to me. I feel the happiest when I am able to make someone else feel good, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when I sought the attention of someone I admired, I behaved in ways I normally wouldn't.

I've learned that nice does not equal good and some people are only selling you good and there is a heavy price. Buyer beware.

Very true. Applies to others and myself. I have a lot to think about: what it means to actually be a good friend and not just "nice".

But the world is still full of genuinely incredible, honest and brave people too that are willing to really live their beliefs and stick their necks out.

My inconclusive list of heroes- Jacinda Ardern, Elon Musk, Greta Thunberg, David Zindell, Mikhail Gorbachev....I could go on and on

I admire your positivity.

I'm a bit of a cynic, to be honest and I kinda like being that way.

I've had personal heroes in the past but I got burned often enough to make me apprehensive. Usually it was over something they did that I disapproved of (generally with good reason). Nowadays, I'm making efforts to appreciate an individuals work over their personal selves, and save my admiration for people in my immediate vicinity since those are the ones who truly affect my life.

On the other hand I liked this band slipknot and I thought their lyrics pretty inspired. I saw them live and was disgusted by their arrogance and dickheadery. They played really well but they acted like egomaniacs and some of their fans seemed violent and, honestly, smelly. These were the days of the moshpit so that was more or less expected, but the way the band riled them up was gross and not fun.

Haha, are you me? I really liked a few metal bands in the past but some concerts of certain bands revealed the artists to be - like you said - arrogant dickheads with smelly, kinda violent fans. Gotta respect the hustle but I stay home these days.

 

[Sidis Coruscatis]

What? Are you disparaging "fandom"? Where's the fun in that?

My Heroes (short list)

• Charles Mingus(musician/composer)
• Jesus Christ (enough said)
• Saints Cyril and Methodius(created the cyrillic alphabet)
• Søren Aabye Kierkegaard(Danish philosopher)
  
• Albert Camus(author, philosopher)
• Richard Stallnan(founder of GNU and the Free Software movement)
• Stanley Kubrick (film director)
• Malcolm X(civil rights activist)
• Nader Khalili (architect, inventor of 'super Adobe')
  
• Van Jacobson (computer scientist who saved the internet from collapsing in the late 1980/early 1990s)
• Harriet Tubman (American abolitionist)
• Jiddu Krishnamurti (author, philosopher)
• Luke Vibert (electronic music artist)
• Apex Twin (electronic music artist)

....etc.

Who doesn't have heroes? Admiring and appreciating someone else's life, works, or point-of-view isn't "worshipping" them like some kind of super-powerful god. Nor in my opinion is it taking away from your personal sense of inherent value. It simply is an acknowledgement of greatness, excellence, or valuable contribution that can be appreciated for what it did. And, for me, looking to my heroes from time to time can be inspiring, especially when inspiration is much needed.

That's a conflict of connotation. If we take an idol as someone whose abilities and works serve as a reminder of what is lacking in my own, and cultivate improvement thereby, there's no problem.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Briefly, I think part of the reason I find idealisation of individuals so suspicious is borne of a weariness and waryness of the devaluation that sometimes follows.

 

[Sidis Coruscatis]

Briefly, I think part of the reason I find idealisation of individuals so suspicious is borne of a weariness and waryness of the devaluation that sometimes follows.

I'm starting to feel like a one trick pony, but I'll be damned if there isn't a Nietzsche aphorism for everything. He really was a trailblazer of psychology.

Anyone who does not *want* to see what is lofty in a man looks that much more keenly for what is low in him and mere foreground - and thus betrays himself.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I'm starting to feel like a one trick pony, but I'll be damned if there isn't a Nietzsche aphorism for everything. He really was a trailblazer of psychology.

I'm not sure what point you're making here.. Could you explain?

 

[Sidis Coruscatis]

I'm not sure what point you're making here.. Could you explain?

The same one as you. I just really like quotes man.